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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc for
my EV conversion.

I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this
would work:

Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and
controller, so that the controller is feeding one
winding of the transformer, and the other is feeding
the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to boost
the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let
the smoke out of something?

Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think about
on a Friday.

M.Barkley


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Discussion Starter #3
a transformer needs AC and transforming the voltage higher would just
make it illegal again unless it happened inside the motor out of sight.
but a car can work on 80v. just a matter of having enough amps and
motors suited for that voltage

Lee Hart runs his small car with an ADC 6.7" motor at 60mph on around
80V and 120A. that's without surplus power then but you could have two
motors in parallel or a motor wired for lower voltage or simple shift up
in gear so the power is more torque than rpm (more amp than voltage)

as I understand it

Dan



M. Barkley wrote:

>Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
>aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc for
>my EV conversion.
>
>I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this
>would work:
>
>Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and
>controller, so that the controller is feeding one
>winding of the transformer, and the other is feeding
>the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to boost
>the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
>would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let
>the smoke out of something?
>
>Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think about
>on a Friday.
>
>M.Barkley
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #5
Figures, can't get something for nothing..... Darn! I
was hoping I stumbled onto a turbo option for my EV,
and the Forkenswift...... LOL


--- Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:

> I think you'd just melt the transformer.
> Transformers only work on
> current change -- the AC portion of the current. I
> suspect the motor
> current will be smoothed out to much by the
> inductance of the motor to
> have much of an AC component. Plus, the motor won't
> like the AC
> output current of the transformer anyway, even if it
> works. Unless
> you could somehow inject DC into the output too.
> I've never tried
> anything like that... but my gut instinct is no.
>
> Seems like just getting a bigger diameter motor and
> a higher amperage
> controller is the only way to get the same amount of
> power out of a
> lower voltage pack.
>
> Z
>
> On 10/19/07, M. Barkley <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
> > aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc
> for
> > my EV conversion.
> >
> > I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if
> this
> > would work:
> >
> > Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor
> and
> > controller, so that the controller is feeding one
> > winding of the transformer, and the other is
> feeding
> > the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to
> boost
> > the output voltage in relation to the input
> voltage,
> > would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just
> let
> > the smoke out of something?
> >
> > Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think
> about
> > on a Friday.
> >
> > M.Barkley
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Discussion Starter #6
From: "M. Barkley"
> I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this would work:
> Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and controller,
> so that the controller is feeding one winding of the transformer,
> and the other is feeding the DC motor. If the transformer was
> wound to boost the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
> would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let the smoke
> out of something?

Transformers don't work on DC, as others have pointed out.

However, the usual PWM DC motor controller produces AC as well as DC. So there are indeed possibilities for using a transformer under certain conditions.

1. The field winding of a series motor is basically an inductor. It
has less than 1 volt DC across it, but a high AC voltage when the
controller is switching.

So, you can wire the primary of a transformer in parallel with the
field winding of the motor. It will see almost no DC voltage, but
a large AC voltage. The peak-to-peak AC voltage will be roughly
the full pack voltage, at the controller's switching frequency.
With a 120v pack and Curtis controller, this means about 50 volts
AC at 15 KHz on the transformer primary.

The transformer needs a core good for this frequency; not a 60 Hz
transformer with a laminated core, but a powdered iron or ferrite
core like you find in a switching power supply or TV flyback or
deflection yoke.

The secondary of this transformer could supply a substantial amount
of power; up to a few percent of whatever power you're feeding to
the motor.

2. The usual PWM motor controller is the simplest version of a buck
converter -- one transistor, one diode, one inductor, one capacitor.
But there are more versions. If you tap the inductor, it alters
the performance in useful ways. It can increase the step-down ratio,
or reduce the stress on the transistor (by increasing the stress
on the diode), or vice versa. Adding a separate inductor in series
with the motor can in effect provide such a tapped inductor.

So, the idea is not without merit. It just has to be done correctly!

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #7
Yep. If a transformer puts out 200VAC @ 100A from a 100VAC primary, the
primary would be drawing 200A plus some more to make up for losses.

This would in theory help if you didn't have enough voltage, like your
48V golf cart goes 30MPH when the battery is connected straight to the
motor (100% duty cycle). If your batteries could put out more current
then boosting the voltage could get you more speed. However, a
multiple-kw transformer is a huge, expensive beast especially when you
include the inverter on the primary side and rectifier on the secondary
side. Not especially efficient when you add up the losses of all 3
items there.

A boost converter with just an inductor is a more effective way to
increase DC voltage, it has much lower losses and the inductor can be
much smaller. However the basic problem remains that it doesn't
increase the power available from the batts, just voltage. Lack of
voltage is rarely the problem. If it were a problem, it would make more
sense to get a motor that ran at an acceptable rpm on the batt voltage
you have available or change the gearing to get an acceptable mph for
the rpm it makes.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: "M. Barkley" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, October 19, 2007 11:22 am
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Someone please shoot this idea down
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Figures, can't get something for nothing..... Darn! I
> was hoping I stumbled onto a turbo option for my EV,
> and the Forkenswift...... LOL
>
>
> --- Zeke Yewdall <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I think you'd just melt the transformer.
> > Transformers only work on
> > current change -- the AC portion of the current. I
> > suspect the motor
> > current will be smoothed out to much by the
> > inductance of the motor to
> > have much of an AC component. Plus, the motor won't
> > like the AC
> > output current of the transformer anyway, even if it
> > works. Unless
> > you could somehow inject DC into the output too.
> > I've never tried
> > anything like that... but my gut instinct is no.
> >
> > Seems like just getting a bigger diameter motor and
> > a higher amperage
> > controller is the only way to get the same amount of
> > power out of a
> > lower voltage pack.
> >
> > Z
> >
> > On 10/19/07, M. Barkley <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
> > > aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc
> > for
> > > my EV conversion.
> > >
> > > I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if
> > this
> > > would work:
> > >
> > > Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor
> > and
> > > controller, so that the controller is feeding one
> > > winding of the transformer, and the other is
> > feeding
> > > the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to
> > boost
> > > the output voltage in relation to the input
> > voltage,
> > > would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just
> > let
> > > the smoke out of something?
> > >
> > > Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think
> > about
> > > on a Friday.
> > >
> > > M.Barkley
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #8
Wow!

I guess I had the same "but transformers are for AC" reaction as most.
Even though we all know that DC motors still make AC
electromechanically. Glad someone stepped up and told us what was up.
But either way, I have to wonder whether this really gets around your
legal problem. If you have a transformer secondary on the motor at 120v,
isn't that still an EV with more than 80v? I guess I don't know the
specific legislation in question, but I'd be careful...

Other thoughts that come to mind are an inverter -> transformer ->
rectifier (horribly inefficient ;-) or just an AC drive.

Hunter

Lee Hart wrote:
> From: "M. Barkley"
> > I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this would work:
> > Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and controller,
> > so that the controller is feeding one winding of the transformer,
> > and the other is feeding the DC motor. If the transformer was
> > wound to boost the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
> > would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let the smoke
> > out of something?
>
> Transformers don't work on DC, as others have pointed out.
>
> However, the usual PWM DC motor controller produces AC as well as DC. So there are indeed possibilities for using a transformer under certain conditions.
>
> 1. The field winding of a series motor is basically an inductor. It
> has less than 1 volt DC across it, but a high AC voltage when the
> controller is switching.
>
> So, you can wire the primary of a transformer in parallel with the
> field winding of the motor. It will see almost no DC voltage, but
> a large AC voltage. The peak-to-peak AC voltage will be roughly
> the full pack voltage, at the controller's switching frequency.
> With a 120v pack and Curtis controller, this means about 50 volts
> AC at 15 KHz on the transformer primary.
>
> The transformer needs a core good for this frequency; not a 60 Hz
> transformer with a laminated core, but a powdered iron or ferrite
> core like you find in a switching power supply or TV flyback or
> deflection yoke.
>
> The secondary of this transformer could supply a substantial amount
> of power; up to a few percent of whatever power you're feeding to
> the motor.
>
> 2. The usual PWM motor controller is the simplest version of a buck
> converter -- one transistor, one diode, one inductor, one capacitor.
> But there are more versions. If you tap the inductor, it alters
> the performance in useful ways. It can increase the step-down ratio,
> or reduce the stress on the transistor (by increasing the stress
> on the diode), or vice versa. Adding a separate inductor in series
> with the motor can in effect provide such a tapped inductor.
>
> So, the idea is not without merit. It just has to be done correctly!
>
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #9
I like my third idea the best if it would work.
1. Well I have heard of it is possible to increase the field to say 72V (on
a shunt motor) for 30 sec max to increase torque, so that you can spin
tires. That could be used as booster switch. Though, torque is increased to
extreme levels at 72V, but top end speed would be slower. The problem of
course is burning out the field wiring inside the motor. Which would mean
getting stuck and possibly repairing the motor. Of course you could also try
say 48VDC booster switch. So the car would go from say 24VDC on take off to
to 48VDC and then turn it off after you get going and then it goes back to
24VDC. How you get the 48VDC could be an issue. I suppose you could tap into
the traction pack. I read you are using 24VDC separate battery pack, so to
get 48VDC from this you could use an 115V AC car inverter and then convert
this to 48VDC with a household 48V power supply. Say you need 30 amps max at
48VDC and this is 1440 watts. So your inverter needs to be 1500 watts
continuous and maybe 3000 watts peak. Now you would need to win this auction
http://tinyurl.com/2j3t8k . As it is a 99 cent auction and how many people
really need such a 3000 watt 48VDC power supply. Of course now you have two
big boxes to place on the vehicle. Plus, you'd probably have to power on the
inverter and then the power supply when you start the car. That way
switching from 24V to 48V would be flawless. I sure there is a more direct
way to do this by building some simple circuit.

2. Another simple solution is to put 4 smaller batteries equivalent in size
to the two already on the vehicle or just add two. The two you add don't
have to be the same size, since you just need an increase in voltage. Just
adding two 12Ah-18AH 12V batteries would work. Now you need to have
batteries switch from 24V to 48V. However, it is important that it do this
instantly without dropping the field. I think I have a contactor diode
circuit for this. Check this out
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7324/pg4fa7.jpg Figure 5-7 is what might
work. Notice is says the relays have to be interlocked. Which means a
reverse based diode on each switch.
3. Thirdly, I think you'd be fine with simply connecting the 4 batteries in
series and then tapping off what you needed. Since the battery pack will
tend to balance. Maybe you could build a lead acid battery balancer. So the
negative will come off the end of bigger Ah side of the 48V pack. Then then
+ 24V tap will come off counting from the negative and connect to the motor
field +. Now simply run a + from the 48V end of the battery pack and add a
heavy duty switch in between here and motor field or use cheap $15 curtis
contactor from surplus center. If you don't think this will work, then tell
me because positive's being connected together?? So when you turn the
switch on you have Turbo take off. You could even use one of the switches
with a spring, so when you release your hand the boost is always gone. I'd
use a contactor for this type. Maybe a solenoid would work, but contactor is
a lot better in my opinion. Here is a pic of what I am talking about
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7603/48vdccu7.jpg .



Michael Barkley wrote:
>
> Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
> aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc for
> my EV conversion.
>
> I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this
> would work:
>
> Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and
> controller, so that the controller is feeding one
> winding of the transformer, and the other is feeding
> the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to boost
> the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
> would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let
> the smoke out of something?
>
> Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think about
> on a Friday.
>
> M.Barkley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Someone-please-shoot-this-idea-down-tf4653217s25542.html#a13325697
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #10
In all of these ideas, the power STILL has to go through the controller.

None of them can create power out of nothing. Indeed NOTHING can creat
power out of nothing.

Since POWER is the only thing that really matters, all of these ideas are
basically pointless, even if they did work. You are still limited by the
power you can get through the controller.

It doesn't really matter if we use a boost converter, or some other method
of boosting voltage, it still comes down to power.

Since, as I understand it, the basic point is to get more power from the
motor a more powerful controller solves the problem.

If you are limited to an 80V pack, then you have to make up the power with
higher current levels.

Power /out/ equals power /in/ minus losses. All of these schemes just
increase your losses, so you gain nothing by using them. In fact, you
actually loose a little.

>
> I like my third idea the best if it would work.
> 1. Well I have heard of it is possible to increase the field to say 72V
> (on
> a shunt motor) for 30 sec max to increase torque, so that you can spin
> tires. That could be used as booster switch. Though, torque is increased
> to
> extreme levels at 72V, but top end speed would be slower. The problem of
> course is burning out the field wiring inside the motor. Which would mean
> getting stuck and possibly repairing the motor. Of course you could also
> try
> say 48VDC booster switch. So the car would go from say 24VDC on take off
> to
> to 48VDC and then turn it off after you get going and then it goes back to
> 24VDC. How you get the 48VDC could be an issue. I suppose you could tap
> into
> the traction pack. I read you are using 24VDC separate battery pack, so to
> get 48VDC from this you could use an 115V AC car inverter and then convert
> this to 48VDC with a household 48V power supply. Say you need 30 amps max
> at
> 48VDC and this is 1440 watts. So your inverter needs to be 1500 watts
> continuous and maybe 3000 watts peak. Now you would need to win this
> auction
> http://tinyurl.com/2j3t8k . As it is a 99 cent auction and how many people
> really need such a 3000 watt 48VDC power supply. Of course now you have
> two
> big boxes to place on the vehicle. Plus, you'd probably have to power on
> the
> inverter and then the power supply when you start the car. That way
> switching from 24V to 48V would be flawless. I sure there is a more direct
> way to do this by building some simple circuit.
>
> 2. Another simple solution is to put 4 smaller batteries equivalent in
> size
> to the two already on the vehicle or just add two. The two you add don't
> have to be the same size, since you just need an increase in voltage. Just
> adding two 12Ah-18AH 12V batteries would work. Now you need to have
> batteries switch from 24V to 48V. However, it is important that it do this
> instantly without dropping the field. I think I have a contactor diode
> circuit for this. Check this out
> http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7324/pg4fa7.jpg Figure 5-7 is what
> might
> work. Notice is says the relays have to be interlocked. Which means a
> reverse based diode on each switch.
> 3. Thirdly, I think you'd be fine with simply connecting the 4 batteries
> in
> series and then tapping off what you needed. Since the battery pack will
> tend to balance. Maybe you could build a lead acid battery balancer. So
> the
> negative will come off the end of bigger Ah side of the 48V pack. Then
> then
> + 24V tap will come off counting from the negative and connect to the
> motor
> field +. Now simply run a + from the 48V end of the battery pack and add a
> heavy duty switch in between here and motor field or use cheap $15 curtis
> contactor from surplus center. If you don't think this will work, then
> tell
> me because positive's being connected together?? So when you turn the
> switch on you have Turbo take off. You could even use one of the switches
> with a spring, so when you release your hand the boost is always gone. I'd
> use a contactor for this type. Maybe a solenoid would work, but contactor
> is
> a lot better in my opinion. Here is a pic of what I am talking about
> http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7603/48vdccu7.jpg .
>
>
>
> Michael Barkley wrote:
>>
>> Hello all, as many may be aware, but for those who
>> aren't, I'm legally limited to no more than 80vdc for
>> my EV conversion.
>>
>> I had a brain @!#$% last night and wondered if this
>> would work:
>>
>> Place a heavy duty transformer between the motor and
>> controller, so that the controller is feeding one
>> winding of the transformer, and the other is feeding
>> the DC motor. If the transformer was wound to boost
>> the output voltage in relation to the input voltage,
>> would this accomplish anything for the EV, or just let
>> the smoke out of something?
>>
>> Figured, you all needed something CRAZY to think about
>> on a Friday.
>>
>> M.Barkley
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Someone-please-shoot-this-idea-down-tf4653217s25542.html#a13325697
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

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Discussion Starter #11
From: Peter VanDerWal
> In all of these ideas, the power STILL has to go through the
> controller. Since POWER is the only thing that really matters,
> all of these ideas are basically pointless, even if they did work.
> You are still limited by the power you can get through the
> controller.

The problem is that the controller delivers its peak power at one point; fully on and at current limit. Let's say you have a Curtis 1231 controller, rated 144 V x 500 A = 72 KW. You only get this peak power at one point.

A series motor connected to this controller only draws this full 72 KW at one specific RPM. If it is turning faster or slower, you get less power.

So these various "schemes" are attempts to get a broader power band.

Conventional ICE cars have exactly the same problem. They use mechanical transmissions to attempt to hold the engine at its best RPM as you accelerate. EV conversions usually keep this transmission, and use it the same way.

But most purpose-built EVs dispense with the transmission. They accomplish its purpose some other way, electrically.

The oldest solution (used on trains buses, etc. since th e1930's) is a sepex motor. By powering the field and aramture separately, you can change the RPM at which the motor draws the full controller current over at a broad range -- at least 5:1. The side effect is a more complicated motor.

The usual solution today is to do it in the controller. A controller like the Zilla can be set to draw a constant 500 A battery current even as the motor current goes as high as 2000 A. This allows about a 4:1 range in motor RPM at peak power.

The comments in this thread are wandering around these two approaches, combining and modifying them in an attempt to find other workable methods.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #12
HHEY mike tell me more about the Hilton propane heater and pump . what are you using it for and how ?
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[email protected]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Someone please shoot this idea down


From: Peter VanDerWal
> In all of these ideas, the power STILL has to go through the
> controller. Since POWER is the only thing that really matters,
> all of these ideas are basically pointless, even if they did work.
> You are still limited by the power you can get through the
> controller.

The problem is that the controller delivers its peak power at one point; fully on and at current limit. Let's say you have a Curtis 1231 controller, rated 144 V x 500 A = 72 KW. You only get this peak power at one point.

A series motor connected to this controller only draws this full 72 KW at one specific RPM. If it is turning faster or slower, you get less power.

So these various "schemes" are attempts to get a broader power band.

Conventional ICE cars have exactly the same problem. They use mechanical transmissions to attempt to hold the engine at its best RPM as you accelerate. EV conversions usually keep this transmission, and use it the same way.

But most purpose-built EVs dispense with the transmission. They accomplish its purpose some other way, electrically.

The oldest solution (used on trains buses, etc. since th e1930's) is a sepex motor. By powering the field and aramture separately, you can change the RPM at which the motor draws the full controller current over at a broad range -- at least 5:1. The side effect is a more complicated motor.

The usual solution today is to do it in the controller. A controller like the Zilla can be set to draw a constant 500 A battery current even as the motor current goes as high as 2000 A. This allows about a 4:1 range in motor RPM at peak power.

The comments in this thread are wandering around these two approaches, combining and modifying them in an attempt to find other workable methods.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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