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VElPTlM6IGh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2Cg==
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yeah... doesn't sound like any common lead acid batteries I know of... but
lithium... yes...

On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 6:45 AM, Roger Heuckeroth <[email protected]>w=
rote:

> "Batteries about the size if a VCR tape"...90 of them... Sounds like
> something other than lead acid. BMS issues most likely.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>
brucedp4 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > SRFD-Chief assumes its 90 batteries were the cause
> >
> >
> http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20110319/NEWS/110319406/1350?Title=
=3DSRJC-auto-shop-fire-destroys-car
> > [image] SRJC auto shop fire causes $300,000 in damage, destroys car
> >
> > A Ford Focus being converted to an electric vehicle by Santa Rosa
> > Junior College students burned Friday, March 18, 2011 destroying the
> > car and causing smoke damage to a portion of the auto shop, Saturday
> > March 19, 2011. Pictured is Santa Rosa Junior College auto shop
> > instructor Clifford Norton By CATHY BUSSEWITZ Mar 19 2011
> >
> > A late-night fire engulfed a car being converted from fuel to electric
> > power in the auto shop at Santa Rosa Junior College on Friday, causing
> > $300,000 in damage, fire officials said.
> >
> > The conversion of the 2005 Ford Focus over the past year-and-a-half
> > had involved dozens of students and teachers, who were planning the
> > first test drive on Saturday.
> >
> > The work was all done, said Clifford Norton, automotive instructor at
> > the college, as he stared at the charred remains on Saturday.
> > =93Everything had to be hand-built.=94
> >
> > The Santa Rosa Fire Department responded around 11 p.m. Friday to a
> > phone call from a passing driver who noticed smoke billowing from the
> > shop=92s doors. The Focus is being investigated as a possible cause of
> > the blaze.
> >
> > =93Most likely it had to do with the batteries or the wiring,=94 Acting
> > Deputy Chief Mike Jones said. =93The batteries melted down, and the
> > batteries leaked, so we had a hazardous materials problem.=94
> >
> > A =93vactor=94 truck which can suck up liquid spills was brought in to
> > help clean up the mess and haul away the acid from the burnt
> > batteries.
> >
> > Norton said the car had been equipped with about 90 batteries, each
> > about the size of a VCR tape, which were clustered in three locations
> > =97 a pack under the front hood, another under the seats and a third in
> > the trunk.
> >
> > The car was burnt to its metal frame and nearly every trace of rubber
> > was obliterated. The car=92s bumpers and door handles were gone, and its
> > steering wheel was melted away.
> >
> > Fire Inspector Mark Pedroia estimated that the blaze burned undetected
> > for more than an hour.
> >
> > =93The fire consumed the entire car, and almost burned itself out
> > because it burned so long,=94 Pedroia said.
> >
> > Auto repair equipment and teaching materials were damaged in the shop,
> > and sheetrock and paint will have to be replaced due to smoke damage
> > in parts of the building, Pedroia said.
> >
> > But just a few feet away from the Focus, a Nissan 300ZX sports car was
> > undamaged, with only a dusting of soot on its exterior.
> >
> > Students are heading into spring break, and Norton expects the shop to
> > be cleaned up by the time they return in a week. Pedroia said the
> > cleanup could take longer.
> >
> > The building was not equipped with a sprinkler system, and though
> > functioning, the fire alarm was not monitored, meaning it does not
> > notify off-site officials to the danger, Jones said.
> >
> > Officials said after preliminary investigation the fire appeared to be
> > accidental, and no one was injured.
> >
> > Norton estimated that about $30,000 had been spent on the electronic
> > car project, the bulk coming from a grant from the AAA insurance
> > company, and the rest from the college and donations from the
> > community.
> >
> > Student Brent Michel, 31, showed up for an automotive technology class
> > on Saturday and was shocked to see the shop covered in soot.
> >
> > =93It just goes to show how safe you are,=94 Michel said. =93With how m=
uch
> > they push safety, it=92s pretty amazing.=94
> > [=A9 2011 PressDemocrat.com =97 All rights reserved]
> > ...
> > http://www2.santarosa.edu/pages/itt/automotive-technology.php
> > ...
> > http://libguides.santarosa.edu/content.php?pid=3D185536&sid=3D1558191
> > ...
> > http://libguides.santarosa.edu/content.php?pid=3D185536&sid=3D1576984
> > ...
> >
> http://busapp02.santarosa.edu/SRweb/SR_CourseOutlines.aspx?CVID=3D18632&S=
emester=3D20087
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > {brucedp.150m.com}
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student=
-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3390927.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Discussion Starter #4
Here is a description of the project:
http://nbeaa.org/osev/sota/index.htm

Gerhard

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes, they used lithiums for this project.

-----
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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #6
Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.

Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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>


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Discussion Starter #7
>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<

You know, I hate this comment!!

Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
properly controlled by a BMS will.

I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti BMS
conclusions. This really pi**es me off!




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.

Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
> --
> View this message in context:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>


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Discussion Starter #8
Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>>
>>
>
>
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>


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Discussion Starter #9
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.

We really have no information at all on the cause of the fire. That
makes speculation little more than gossip. Hopefully, we'll be hearing
more about what caused the fire, so we can learn from it.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #10
Russ,
What does your charger do when a top balance shunt type BMS starts to shunt
off current? If a top balance BMS is designed to max out at 5 amps then it
is imperative that the charger backs off to that 5 amp limit. Does this
happen with your chargers?

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>>
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-
> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
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Discussion Starter #11
In the specs for the car they list a BRUSA NLG5 CHARGER. Don't know if they
ended up using it or not. I don't know if the Brusa chargers have an input
for cutback from the BMS.

IT is imperative that if you use top balancing that the BMS send a signal to
the charger to limit the charger to the same or less current then the shunt.
This is simple design logic and yet I don't see it used, I find it amazing
that the BMS manufacturers don't collaborate with the charger companies to
accomplish this.!!



Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 2:57 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Sorry you feel that way, but as a manufacturer of EV chargers, I have done
extensive design, manufacturing, and testing of resistor shunt regulators.
I have determined that I would never use top balancing, let alone a
resistive shunt.

This is my opinion, yours may vary. That's all I'm going to say about this.

Top balance, bottom balance, no balance, LV slowdown, HV charger shutoff,
lithium, lead acid, flooded, AGM, Ford, Toyota, Chevy, like @%%holes,
everyone has one, I mean opinion.

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO

http://russcoev.com


>>>>>Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting anti
> BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 12:45 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
> frame
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>
> http://russcoev.com
>
>
>> Yes, they used lithiums for this project.
>>
>> -----
>> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
>> --
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> Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3391146.html
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Discussion Starter #12
There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a singe electric vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system. One for sure was controlling the BRUSA.
It is not hard to come up with an educated guess that the problems lie in
the controlling systems added to PROTECT the cells and control the chargers.
It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. But to be sure
so every one is clear you will have to ask the folks who built it.

Pete :)

How many will it take before people will get it.

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Discussion Starter #13
>>>>There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a single electric
vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system<<<<

You can say this? Seriously?

Facts, Data and facts! Show me!!!

This is an absurd comment!




Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



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Discussion Starter #14
>>>>There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a single electric
vehicle
fire has been without a BMS system<<<<

Well unless you're saying that 100% of EV builders know how important it is
to have one. :)


Mark





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Discussion Starter #15
I had a small fire in my EV and had no BMS. I didn't even have my Zener regs
on at the time.

Peter Flipsen Jr
"Peter C. Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Since this seems to be a rather "hot" topic, I ask that the participants
> please provide citations to back up their positions. Should be easy
> for at least one side to show that one EV fire was without BMS.
>
> All I am asking for is a citation showing one side or the other.
>
> My reason? I'm in charge of an EV Builder club at work, and I want to
> have the correct information at hand.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> On 3/20/2011 5:17 PM, Mark Grasser wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>>> There is one thing that can be said for sure. Not a single electric
> > vehicle
> > fire has been without a BMS system<<<<
> >
> > Well unless you're saying that 100% of EV builders know how important it
is
> > to have one. :)
> >
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Discussion Starter #16
Found this at the link given:

Traction Batteries: 90 Thunder Sky LFP-60AHA LiFePO4 cells
Link to datasheet: www.thunder-sky.com/pdf/TS-LFP60.pdf
Picture of single cell:

Battery management system: Elithion Lithiumate
Link to web site: liionbms.com/php/liionbms.php

Link to website: www.metricmind.com
- Charger and cables:Brusa NLG513-SC


Doesn't mean the bms was the cause of the fire though. We don't even know
if it was charging at the time. Lot of info on their website including
detailed schematics. The upper left of the main schematic shows a bms with
CAN high/low outputs. The lower left detail of section D shows connections
for a "custom charger." Really sad, looked like a nice car, and was almost
complete. They put in a lot of work with many custom circuits.




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Discussion Starter #17
So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be.

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops).

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS.

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too.



-----
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Discussion Starter #18
So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be.

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops).

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS.

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too.



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
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Discussion Starter #19
So then what burned? What caused the fire? Was it a bad connection?
Overcharged and got hot and burned? LiFePo4 cells or some other chemistry
that is not stable like LiFePo4 cells? I understand about not wanting to
reveal the problem but all the vehicles that burnt to the ground HAVE had
BMS systems. It may have not been the BMS directly but even a crappy
connection or maybe the students were too eager and did charging unattended
putting to much faith in the system before enough testing could be done to
be sure it was safe to leave unattended. There are lots of things but one
thing is for sure. All these setups have been very complex and for each
complexity there is room for failure. Pushing the limits? Maybe. Just a bad
connection somewhere that shorted out and started the fire that had nothing
to do with the batteries or BMS system. Could be.

So we know they used: LiFePo4 cells, BMS, Brusa, the fire happened during an
unattended time (pretty easy to deduct that it was charging as they were
going to test it on Saturday. Oooops).

So with positive proof of these items it is fair to conclude they were
charging with an operational BMS and connected to a Brusa Charger controlled
by the BMS.

Mmmmmmm. Batteries? Hardly. Pretty much ash at this point. They might say
its the extension cord too.



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3392544.html
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Discussion Starter #20
Hey, folks, as the guys in the Dick Tracy cartoon used to say,
hooooooolllllld everything!

I'm going to reinforce (say LOUDER if you like) what Lee said.

Almost everything that's been written here is speculative. And not just
here; the news item Bruce posted quotes the Santa Rosa acting deputy fire
chief : "Most likely it had to do with the batteries or the wiring." That's
pure speculation too, not the findings of a proper investigation.

The "facts" we have are pretty meager.

= The car burned.

= Some kind of liquid was produced at the scene. we don't know whether it
was released before or during the fire, or what part it may have played.
However, the fire fighters were concerned enough about the nature and
quantity of it that they called in a spill cleanup crew.

= The batteries are described as being about the size of a video cassette,
which might suggest some kinds of lithium cells - but we don't know for
sure.

= Website documentation describes the battery, charger, and BMS that had
been purchased for the EV. However, we don't know which of these items, if
any, had been installed properly (or at all).

Please, let's stay cool (oops, sorry) until we actually KNOW something. I
don't mean to offend anybody, but much of what I'm reading here sounds a lot
like "I believe." Now, if you're going to church, belief is just the thing.
But for building EVs, knowledge is more useful. Let's wait until we have
some more of the latter before we try to figure out what went wrong.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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