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Discussion Starter #21
There are other JC's and University EV conversion course newswire
pieces showing me SRJC is not alone in offering courses to learn more
about EVs. Some of those pieces are just not worthy to post. There has
to be something to offer: interesting vehicle, project, situation,
and or something we can learn from.

I chose to post this sad tragedy in the hopes of the later, that
something can be learned, and the cause disseminated so other similar
'EV courses' do not replicate.

Except for a few evdl members' posts that raised the ire of others, I
feel once the actual details become clear, we will be able to discuss
this topic in a better more constructive way.

I hope there are North SF Bay EAA members and or local EV'rs that
would be willing to stay on top of this, and post to the evdl.org the
investigation's determination of the cause.

Here are some contacts for them to follow up on and ask what those
details are:

[email protected]
CATHY BUSSEWITZ, Press-Democrat Reporter (that did this piece)

[email protected]
Clifford Norton, SRJC Automotive-Instructor (mentioned in the piece)

As previously posted by another evdl.org member:
http://nbeaa.org/osev/sota/
On the bottom of that page it states:
"Chris Jones at [email protected] if you are interested in
more information, or would like to help out with this effort."

Chris should also be contacted to see what he can find out.



Clearly we need the facts so we can disseminate how to prevent this
sad tragedy from happening again.


{brucedp.150m.com}

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Discussion Starter #22
Oh no! Not the anti Vs pro BMS thing again! Mark (and others before
you start) you should be used to this by now.

What is glaringly obviously missing from their budget spreadsheet is
any sort of alarm.

'Canbus charger'....?

A great shame as it was looking to be a lovely job.

I think I'll add a bit to my carputer to send me an email every 10
minutes or so with a status report. At least then if the worst
happens I'll have an off-board record of what led up to it.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


Mark Grasser wrote:

>>>>> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used
> correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that
> is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting
> anti BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its
> metal
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>



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Discussion Starter #23
Martin,
No I won't take this anywhere. Not on this list. Civilization exists over
here.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Martin WINLOW
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Oh no! Not the anti Vs pro BMS thing again! Mark (and others before
you start) you should be used to this by now.

What is glaringly obviously missing from their budget spreadsheet is
any sort of alarm.

'Canbus charger'....?

A great shame as it was looking to be a lovely job.

I think I'll add a bit to my carputer to send me an email every 10
minutes or so with a status report. At least then if the worst
happens I'll have an off-board record of what led up to it.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


Mark Grasser wrote:

>>>>> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.<<<<
>
> You know, I hate this comment!!
>
> Did it even say the charger was on? A BMS top balancing if used
> correctly
> will not create enough heat to start a fire, whereas a charger that
> is not
> properly controlled by a BMS will.
>
> I would like to see some facts before Jacks follower start spouting
> anti BMS
> conclusions. This really pi**es me off!
>
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
> Mark Grasser
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf
>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its
> metal
>
> Gee, Santa Rosa. My home town.
>
> Bet ya the BMS used top balance shunt regulators.
>
> Russ Kaufmann
>
> RUSSCO
>



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Discussion Starter #24
I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
involved with the planning, construction or build.

That said I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the fire, I just
came from a detailed inspection tour.

These things are known:

The vehicle was NEVER charged. The charger was installed but was not
functional. It was NOT plugged in at the time of the fire.

The BMS was partially installed, but there was no interface between
the charger or the controller.

The 12 volt accessory battery was not installed in the vehicle at the
time of the fire.

The vehicle was NOT ready for a test drive as the cells were not
brought up to proper charge.

We know a lot, but we do not know what caused the fire. I just
started looking into the matter this AM, about 11:00AM CA time.

I will keep all of you posted and provide the results, when we have a
clear picture. In the meantime ALL of you who blamed the BMS, the
Charger or anything are wrong at this time.

We just started gathering information about who had recently worked on
the car and what they did. When I know you will know. In the mean
time give us a few days, this is very unfortunate for all of us
involved with the program.

--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3394583.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #25
For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of
as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

This is a very unfortunate accident for the community. Blaming a BMS
or lack thereof will help no one. And it won't even prove your point
if you, well, cannot prove it.

We should just wait for the investigation as to the cause. It may be
that something was done wrong which you could actually learn from and
not repeat the mistake. .... or it could be a sabotage from someone
in the oil business. Right now that seems more likely than the "BMS
is the cause" argument ;-P

Mike


Peter Oliver <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
> done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
> involved with the planning, construction or build.
>
> That said I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the fire, I just
> came from a detailed inspection tour.
>
> These things are known:
>
> The vehicle was NEVER charged. The charger was installed but was not
> functional. It was NOT plugged in at the time of the fire.
>
> The BMS was partially installed, but there was no interface between
> the charger or the controller.
>
> The 12 volt accessory battery was not installed in the vehicle at the
> time of the fire.
>
> The vehicle was NOT ready for a test drive as the cells were not
> brought up to proper charge.
>
> We know a lot, but we do not know what caused the fire. I just
> started looking into the matter this AM, about 11:00AM CA time.
>
> I will keep all of you posted and provide the results, when we have a
> clear picture. In the meantime ALL of you who blamed the BMS, the
> Charger or anything are wrong at this time.
>
> We just started gathering information about who had recently worked on
> the car and what they did. When I know you will know. In the mean
> time give us a few days, this is very unfortunate for all of us
> involved with the program.
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413=
529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-fr=
ame-tp3390927p3394583.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Na=
bble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #26
>For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of>as a fool
>then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
The best analysis of the situation yet!
Thanks for your expert opinion Mike :)
P.S. That's a compliment, always admire your logic Mike!



----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Willmon <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Mon, March 21, 2011 5:18:51 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal frame

For those who would jump to conclusions, it is better to be thought of
as a fool then to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

This is a very unfortunate accident for the community. Blaming a BMS
or lack thereof will help no one. And it won't even prove your point
if you, well, cannot prove it.

We should just wait for the investigation as to the cause. It may be
that something was done wrong which you could actually learn from and
not repeat the mistake. .... or it could be a sabotage from someone
in the oil business. Right now that seems more likely than the "BMS
is the cause" argument ;-P

Mike


Peter Oliver <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am the instructor of the EV class at the SRJC. This project was
> done outside of the normal class functions and I was not actually
> involved with the planning, construction or build.
>
> That said I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the fire, I just
> came from a detailed inspection tour.
>
> These things are known:
>
> The vehicle was NEVER charged. The charger was installed but was not
> functional. It was NOT plugged in at the time of the fire.
>
> The BMS was partially installed, but there was no interface between
> the charger or the controller.
>
> The 12 volt accessory battery was not installed in the vehicle at the
> time of the fire.
>
> The vehicle was NOT ready for a test drive as the cells were not
> brought up to proper charge.
>
> We know a lot, but we do not know what caused the fire. I just
> started looking into the matter this AM, about 11:00AM CA time.
>
> I will keep all of you posted and provide the results, when we have a
> clear picture. In the meantime ALL of you who blamed the BMS, the
> Charger or anything are wrong at this time.
>
> We just started gathering information about who had recently worked on
> the car and what they did. When I know you will know. In the mean
> time give us a few days, this is very unfortunate for all of us
> involved with the program.
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3394583.html
>
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
cars burned. One thing for sure is that all the cars were unattended. My car
sits unattended with lithium cells installed and since there is no active
processes happening there is no discharge of my cells and there has been no
fires either or even any electrical component getting or even warm while
sitting. Something was happening and no matter what Pete Oliver said or what
the reporters said some active process was happening. That is pretty easy to
conclude that the car was charging. Pete was not there nor was he involved
directly. He was only told what someone else said. I find it very hard to
believe that the car just burst into flame on its own with no active process
happening. Something was ON. Someone is not being forthcoming. So
circumstantial evidence from what we know from all the fires like this one
it is not hard to conclude that the car did have a BMS system installed and
that the charger was ON. It is not a willy nilly observation and it is quite
conclusive.

There is no argument. There is a problem and it is COMMON to ALL the fires
that have occurred in the past couple years.

Also the fires being talked about are the ones where they were left
unattended and using lithium cells. Not cars at the race track bustin the
limits of the batteries and motors and controllers nor the EV's that are
lead acid.


Pete :)

Sorry that you don't agree but it is no longer a coincidence. It is no
longer a small stupid mistake. There is a common factor. BMS or some other
common factor but the problem is there. So we say BMS it brings to focus
that a problem exists and it is easy to see that something is amiss.

With cars reduced to ash what do you do? Just toss your hands up or draw
conclusions from past fires of similar circumstances. You must trouble shoot
the issue. And all you have is a pile of ash and someones word. I prefer to
look at the evidence and not the words. People do lie to cover up problems.
That is quite likely just as it is easy to draw the conclusion that power
was ON.



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3395280.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Of course, it is absolutely impossible that there might have been some
welding done just prior to the event. Nobody could have left a soldering
iron or drop light on. Experts absolutely know it had to be the lithiums or
B M S. Nothing else ever causes a fire. NEVER

Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

-----Original message-----
From: gottdi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, Mar 22, 2011 01:57:49 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [EVDL] SRJC student's Focus-conversion-EV burned to its metal
frame

Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
cars burned. One thing for sure is that all the cars were unattended. My car
sits unattended with lithium cells installed and since there is no active
processes happening there is no discharge of my cells and there has been no
fires either or even any electrical component getting or even warm while
sitting. Something was happening and no matter what Pete Oliver said or what
the reporters said some active process was happening. That is pretty easy to
conclude that the car was charging. Pete was not there nor was he involved
directly. He was only told what someone else said. I find it very hard to
believe that the car just burst into flame on its own with no active process
happening. Something was ON. Someone is not being forthcoming. So
circumstantial evidence from what we know from all the fires like this one
it is not hard to conclude that the car did have a BMS system installed and
that the charger was ON. It is not a willy nilly observation and it is quite
conclusive.

There is no argument. There is a problem and it is COMMON to ALL the fires
that have occurred in the past couple years.

Also the fires being talked about are the ones where they were left
unattended and using lithium cells. Not cars at the race track bustin the
limits of the batteries and motors and controllers nor the EV's that are
lead acid.


Pete :)

Sorry that you don't agree but it is no longer a coincidence. It is no
longer a small stupid mistake. There is a common factor. BMS or some other
common factor but the problem is there. So we say BMS it brings to focus
that a problem exists and it is easy to see that something is amiss.

With cars reduced to ash what do you do? Just toss your hands up or draw
conclusions from past fires of similar circumstances. You must trouble shoot
the issue. And all you have is a pile of ash and someones word. I prefer to
look at the evidence and not the words. People do lie to cover up problems.
That is quite likely just as it is easy to draw the conclusion that power
was ON.



-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context:
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-F
ocus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3395280.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #29
Yes but just like you said you like to make decisions based on facts,
there are not yet enough now for you to draw that conclusion. It may
be just as likely that a wrench or a screw driver accidentally
dropped into the battery box or that someone with a vendetta came in
and crowbarred a cell. Or like you speculate maybe someone was in the
process of hooking up the charger and accidentally left it on before
being fully tested or checked. For me the blame of "BMS causes fires"
is extremely premature. I knowt you could go find many more accounts
of lead acid cars with no BMS catching on fire as well. I've had
BMS's on and off my truck, and in no case either with or without have
I burned my truck down, not even once. There are plenty of Lithium
powered cars too with and without BMS' that haven't burned the car
down either. So without further detail and investigation which we
were told has just now begun I think its a little premature to point
to a conclusion that BMS' cause fires.

Mike

gottdi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Its not hard to see that all the recent fires that have resulted in total
> destruction do have a common factor and it is not hard to deduct that there
> was an active process happening during the unattended time frame when the
> cars burned. One thing for sure is that all the cars were unattended. My car
> sits unattended with lithium cells installed and since there is no active
> processes happening there is no discharge of my cells and there has been no
> fires either or even any electrical component getting or even warm while
> sitting. Something was happening and no matter what Pete Oliver said or what
> the reporters said some active process was happening. That is pretty easy to
> conclude that the car was charging. Pete was not there nor was he involved
> directly. He was only told what someone else said. I find it very hard to
> believe that the car just burst into flame on its own with no active process
> happening. Something was ON. Someone is not being forthcoming. So
> circumstantial evidence from what we know from all the fires like this one
> it is not hard to conclude that the car did have a BMS system installed and
> that the charger was ON. It is not a willy nilly observation and it is quite
> conclusive.
>
> There is no argument. There is a problem and it is COMMON to ALL the fires
> that have occurred in the past couple years.
>
> Also the fires being talked about are the ones where they were left
> unattended and using lithium cells. Not cars at the race track bustin the
> limits of the batteries and motors and controllers nor the EV's that are
> lead acid.
>
>
> Pete :)
>
> Sorry that you don't agree but it is no longer a coincidence. It is no
> longer a small stupid mistake. There is a common factor. BMS or some other
> common factor but the problem is there. So we say BMS it brings to focus
> that a problem exists and it is easy to see that something is amiss.
>
> With cars reduced to ash what do you do? Just toss your hands up or draw
> conclusions from past fires of similar circumstances. You must trouble shoot
> the issue. And all you have is a pile of ash and someones word. I prefer to
> look at the evidence and not the words. People do lie to cover up problems.
> That is quite likely just as it is easy to draw the conclusion that power
> was ON.
>
>
>
> -----
> If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
> --
> View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/SRJC-student-s-Focus-conversion-EV-burned-to-its-metal-frame-tp3390927p3395280.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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