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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.teslachargers.com/testimonials.html

I wonder if this is the same bunch that were reviving batteries a while bac=
k in =

Vancouver. If this works so well I wonder if other charger companies wil=
l =

incorporate the algorithm into their chargers. Snake oil or just a Sonie=
l =

charger in disguise? A bit pricey. Lawrence Rhodes....

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
<<<< http://www.teslachargers.com/testimonials.html

I wonder if this is the same bunch that were reviving batteries a
while back in
Vancouver. If this works so well I wonder if other charger companies will
incorporate the algorithm into their chargers. Snake oil or just a Soniel
charger in disguise? A bit pricey. Lawrence Rhodes....>>>>

...and here I thought you were talking about something out of the
sports car...

This guy is out of Spokane, WA, bu does sound like the Canadian version.

A 20A/12V charger for $1730, no mention of charging algorithm
(probably "proprietary"), but plenty of "testimonials" - is it any
different from these:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_automotive?_encoding=UTF8&node=15684181&field-brandtextbin=Battery%20Life%20Saver

A product search for "battery desulfator" comes up with a lot of
claims, but no-one asked for this much money, so this MUST be "THE
ONE" ;P

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Funny, after a quick scan of the testimonials, I read about two
different people restoring dead batteries by paralleling them with a
good one to get it to charge. In all the years I've been reading the
EVDL, I don't remember anyone else using the technique. Has anyone
else tried this? If it restores the bad battery, what does this
overcharge do to the good one?

DAC

<[email protected]> wrote:
> <<<< http://www.teslachargers.com/testimonials.html
>
> I wonder if this is the same bunch that were reviving batteries a
> while back in
> Vancouver. If this works so well I wonder if other charger companies w=
ill
> incorporate the algorithm into their chargers. Snake oil or just a Son=
iel
> charger in disguise? A bit pricey. Lawrence Rhodes....>>>>
>
> ...and here I thought you were talking about something out of the
> sports car...
>
> This guy is out of Spokane, WA, bu does sound like the Canadian version.
>
> A 20A/12V charger for $1730, no mention of charging algorithm
> (probably "proprietary"), but plenty of "testimonials" - is it any
> different from these:
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=3Dbl_sr_automotive?_encoding=3DUTF8&node=3D15=
684181&field-brandtextbin=3DBattery%20Life%20Saver
>
> A product search for "battery desulfator" comes up with a lot of
> claims, but no-one asked for this much money, so this MUST be "THE
> ONE" ;P
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Paralleling is probably required because
the dead battery by itself upsets a "smart"
charger enough to not attempt charging at all.
My preferred charger and certainly for the kind
of experiments that we are talking about here,
is a simple voltage and current controlled lab
power supply, mine happens to be 0-30V and 0-4A
so I can dial in just about any battery for a
long (slow) charge.
Even if a battery is *completely* dead (as in
a new car battery sitting for almost a year =

uncharged, after someone found out that it did
not solve his problem of a bad alternator) =

then I have had luck buying this very battery
for a small price, dialing in 30V and a very low
current such as 0.3A on the power supply until =

*some* current started to flow and voltage =

dropped to somewhere around 12V, then set the
max voltage to something that will allow the =

battery to fully charge and generate some gas
to stir up the electrolyte, but if it is a
sealed battery, not to vent any. For floodeds
I either keep the voltage very high or at an
equalization level (around 15V) and up to
1/10C for an overnight charge.
That new, cheap, dead battery was bubbling
vigorously after more than 10 hours charging
so I checked electrolyte levels (they were fine)
and I put it in service as my new EV aux battery
which was still its place when I sold the EV
several years later.
Oh, this EV did not have a working DC/DC, so it
depended on the aux battery to sustain the
drive, it had a small 4A 14V laptop supply to
top it up from the main pack between commutes...

Hope this helps,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of dave cover
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 6:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Chargers.

Funny, after a quick scan of the testimonials, I read about two different p=
eople restoring dead batteries by paralleling them with a good one to get i=
t to charge. In all the years I've been reading the EVDL, I don't remember =
anyone else using the technique. Has anyone else tried this? If it restores=
the bad battery, what does this overcharge do to the good one?

DAC

<[email protected]> wrote:
> <<<< http://www.teslachargers.com/testimonials.html
>
> I wonder if this is the same bunch that were reviving batteries a =

> while back in Vancouver. If this works so well I wonder if other =

> charger companies will incorporate the algorithm into their chargers.
> Snake oil or just a Soniel charger in disguise? A bit pricey.
> Lawrence Rhodes....>>>>
>
> ...and here I thought you were talking about something out of the =

> sports car...
>
> This guy is out of Spokane, WA, bu does sound like the Canadian version.
>
> A 20A/12V charger for $1730, no mention of charging algorithm =

> (probably "proprietary"), but plenty of "testimonials" - is it any =

> different from these:
> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=3Dbl_sr_automotive?_encoding=3DUTF8&node=3D15=
684
> 181&field-brandtextbin=3DBattery%20Life%20Saver
>
> A product search for "battery desulfator" comes up with a lot of =

> claims, but no-one asked for this much money, so this MUST be "THE =

> ONE" ;P
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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>



--
http://www.evalbum.com/2149

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There are lots of different algorithms for automatically charging lead
batteries, but they all work by controlling or monitoring current and/or
voltage.

The simplest is a taper charger, which regulates the charger's voltage to
the battery's natural "I'm full" level. These can take a long time.

Smarter chargers vary the voltage they supply with some kind of variable
regulator circuit. They either look for the voltage to rise to some level,
or for the current to fall to some level. A few also consider how fast the
voltage is rising or the current is falling (dv/dt). Others, relatively
dumb, use a simple timer.

No charger is a miracle worker! The discharge process is the only
reversible process in a battery, and even that, up to a point.

Batteries wear out. It's an inevitable march to the recycling center.
Overcharging, undercharging, and/or overdischarging them wears them out
faster. Reversing them or leaving them flat for a long time is very rough
on them.

All these things cause irreversible degradation. "Miracle cures" either
produce no improvement or produce only temporary improvement. Their main
function is to move green pieces of paper from your wallet into the
manufacturer's. The only real fix for a battery that isn't delivering
enough energy is to fit a new one.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> If this works so well I wonder if other charger companies will
> incorporate the algorithm into their chargers. Snake oil or
> just a Soniel charger in disguise? A bit pricey.

Their marketing hype is a perfect example of what I stay away from.

You can take just about any beat up old lead acid battery, and "pound"
on it with a high-power charger to temporarily bring it back to life.
You're taking advantage of some of the basic characteristics of all
lead-acid batteries:

- The hotter it gets, the better it works (but life suffers).

- Most are chronically undercharged. A strong equalizing charge
can bring it back up to "full" for the first time in years.

- If a battery hasn't been used in a while, its capacity improves
just as a consequence of exercising (cycling) it.

- A battery that has been run dead, and then allowed to sit and
rest awhile will automatically recover some of its capacity.

*Endless* numbers of con artists have taken advantage of these
characteristics. The pitchman pulls a "dead" battery out of a junkyard
car, and charges it with some junky low-power charger. It doesn't work.
Now he charges it with his miracle charger (which does nothing that any
good chargers wouldn't have done). Voila! It recovers!

Or, he runs it down until it won't crank the engine. He then gives his
technobabble speech (to allow time for the battery to rest), and applies
his magic potion. Voila! The battery now starts the car!

Or, he tests some battery that has been sitting idle a long time, does
his song-and-dance, and tests it again. Voila! It improves! Of course;
the second cycle is always better than the first.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Cor had a good explanation of this. Many "smart" chargers won't charge a
> dead battery. Either its voltage is too low, or its internal resistance
> is too high to accept a charge. Its characteristics are too far away
> from "normal" for the charger to accept it.
>
>
My method of charging a completely dead battery that is out of spec for a
smart charger is to hook a PV module directly to it... no charge controller
or anything. Since they behave pretty much like a constant current source
at voltages much lower than their maximum power voltage, a 3 amp panel at 17
volts, is also a 3 amp panel at 6 volts or 8 volts for a super discharged 12
volt battery. Or even 2 or 3 volts for a 6 volt battery. Of course, you
have to monitor the voltage, because at some point, the battery voltage will
start rising, and overcharge the battery if you left it on long enough.

Z
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Zeke,

On a *really* dead battery
(voltage = 0V and internal resistance in the kiloOhms)
you will see that the 3A 17V panel will go to its
open circuit voltage, around 21-22V, because it cannot
supply any current to the battery.
After some time the pure water in the cells will
slowly turn back into electrolyte and the current will
start to rise.
At some point you will suddenly see the panel voltage
start to sag: 22V ...... 21V .... 20V ... 18V .. 12V.
That is when the battery *is* taking a charge again.
>From that moment you need to watch for over-charging
and you can use a smart charger to bring the battery
back to "full".

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 1:50 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Chargers.

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Cor had a good explanation of this. Many "smart" chargers won't charge

> a dead battery. Either its voltage is too low, or its internal
> resistance is too high to accept a charge. Its characteristics are too

> far away from "normal" for the charger to accept it.
>
>
My method of charging a completely dead battery that is out of spec for
a smart charger is to hook a PV module directly to it... no charge
controller or anything. Since they behave pretty much like a constant
current source at voltages much lower than their maximum power voltage,
a 3 amp panel at 17 volts, is also a 3 amp panel at 6 volts or 8 volts
for a super discharged 12
volt battery. Or even 2 or 3 volts for a 6 volt battery. Of course,
you
have to monitor the voltage, because at some point, the battery voltage
will start rising, and overcharge the battery if you left it on long
enough.

Z
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