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On 7 Aug 2007 at 23:26, [email protected] wrote:

> Why wait for deliverance from big business when you can convert an old car
> today?

Not so much "deliverance from big business."

Not to slight anyone in any way, but people have different priorities. When I
was in my 20s and 30s, working on cars was fun. In middle age, I really
don't much care for it any more. Although I still change oil in the ICEs, lying
on my back under a car is a LONG way from being my favorite pastime. If I
could buy a nice factory EV that met my needs, I would - and will.

I don't expect that I'll buy an EV from "big business." More likely it will come
from a small operation. It could be something like the Freedom or Sunrise II,
or maybe the product of a company on the scale of Tesla. It might be an
import from a small to medium size company in India, Korea, Japan, or
China. It might indeed be from one of the major automakers, but given their
past performance, I'd put the likelihood of that dead last on the list.

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Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal. That would be the path of least resistance. What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action. People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible. I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube. So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.

----- Original Message ----
> Why wait for deliverance from big business when you can convert an old car
> today?

Not so much "deliverance from big business."

Not to slight anyone in any way, but people have different priorities. When I
was in my 20s and 30s, working on cars was fun. In middle age, I really
don't much care for it any more. Although I still change oil in the ICEs, lying
on my back under a car is a LONG way from being my favorite pastime. If I
could buy a nice factory EV that met my needs, I would - and will.

I don't expect that I'll buy an EV from "big business." More likely it will come
from a small operation. It could be something like the Freedom or Sunrise II,
or maybe the product of a company on the scale of Tesla. It might be an
import from a small to medium size company in India, Korea, Japan, or
China. It might indeed be from one of the major automakers, but given their
past performance, I'd put the likelihood of that dead last on the list.




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I like your thinking. if you have some expertice in the field you might
be able to achieve a crude cell with no investment. even if it never
would be viable the demonstration might burst this overpricing bubble
they have in their heads. remember it only took 2 guys to get bush to go
from pure evil to singing green tunes (even if he sang off key
Who knew that gore and payne would be good things

all it takes is a few good men

Dan

Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Totally Glenn. I'm in your camp here. This is why I am so frustrated
> that the Lithium battery makers are so high priced right now. I
> checked on wholesale (not direct) prices on components to make lithium
> cells and it is miniscule compared to what we are being asked to pay.
> I know they have to recoup R&D but jees! That's all we would need to
> make 200mile machines in our backyard... lower Lithium cell prices.
>
> I get so frustrated about this, I found myself putting together
> research material for a small scale, JIT large format Lithium battery
> plant. Who knows? It might be nifty to have Made In The USA on the
> battery label. (Yes, I know nobody would want to finance this,, etc
> etc
>
> My faith is in the small makers taking more and more of market share
> until the big makers are forced to compete, at which point they'll try
> to buy a few up. What happens after that depends on if they still have
> serious competition or not.
>
> On 8/8/07, Glenn Saunders <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Don't get me wrong, having an EV or plugin hybrid on the market is a very big deal. That would be the path of least resistance. What I didn't like about the message of Who Killed the Electric Car is the message that the ONLY road to EV adoption is through big business--that the solution is to picket them and/or pass regulations to coerce them into action. People can ooh and ah over the Volt concept or the $100K Tesla Roadster, but it's just not tangible. I got introduced into the EV conversion scene through watching stuff like Otmar and White Zombie on Youtube. So I think changing perceptions about EVs and finding greater acceptance of them can happen from this grass-roots level on up.
>>
>
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One of the problems with the grass roots approach is that small EV manufacturers often lack the ability to produce a high volume of vehicles. Small manufacturers lack the resources to develop their own safety features and then crash test cars. This is why EVs tend to be conversions, kit cars, NEVs, and 3 wheelers. GM does not have this problem. The problem with GM is... well... that is a subject all to itself.

I hope the Volt goes into production. GM needs this one bad! Our economy needs GM to succeed.

Brian

---- Timothy Balcer <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
On 8/8/07, Tony Hwang <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you do make cheaper lithium cells (can't imagine it being easy, research, testing, etc), maybe a big company will buy you up and you can make your millions.
>
> Right now the cells are all made overseas in China mostly (A123, TS, etc). I think it would be too expensive to slap a "Made In The USA" on the cells. Safety, wages, health insurance for employees, etc...

Well the technical stuff would not be too difficult... it's the
production that is hard. I can get the chemical and physical specs for
a LiFEPO4 battery for free, even. It is patent issues and production
issues that you would have to surmount.

If you do a pull based manufacturing model, you can't do high volume,
but it is a lot cheaper in absolute costs since you can retool at any
time and play about with it to perfect the process a lot easier. Plus
you could do it in a garage, in theory, since you could encaps all the
important bits in an airtight polycarbonate shell.

Also there is a real misnomer about how expensive it is to produce
things in the US. The manufacturers all complain about it and yes, you
do have to pay people a living wage, plus make sure they aren't dying
of cancer.. but..

With fuel prices rising it is at a razor's edge now, as far as
overseas manufacturing being more profitable than domestic. And there
are a few companies doing domestic production and raking it in..
American Apparel, for example.

I'm not worried about outsourcing at all.. not for large format
anyway. And not for something that can be progressively more
automated.

--T

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I looked into making my own lithium-ion cells. The lithium cobolt
material was to expensive to purchase and come out ahead but I found
sources for the liFePo4 that wern't to bad, just not in the US. The US
companies wanted trainload min quantities, up front annual purchase
aggreements etc.

in a nut shell, lithium ion prismatic cell construction
there are 2 sets of chemicals and plates, LiFePo4 and aluminum
and graphite and copper. cant remember which goes with which w/o looking
it up)
For high capacity lower amp cells a very fine mesh screen is
avail see fukowa foils on PRED battery materials web site.
mix chemicals with binder. Now available in water based that can
be used in open atmosphere safely for the cell and for the employee.
spread mix onto plates, collander (run thru pressure rollers.)
dry plates
while dry assemble (usually done in argon filled chamber)
plate-seperator-plate ...
zero scale
pull vacuum on cell, this serves as leak test and is how you get
electrolyte in.
allow vacuum to pull in electrolyte, seal.
commission charge.

If you go to the scientific and education supply houses you can buy the
chemicals but the prices were 1000 to 10,000 times the price for a few
grams or kilograms that you'd pay if from an industrial supplier.
One of the points stressed in the original LiFePo4 research
documentation was the low environmental and decreased cost over
nimh,LiCo, and LiMg cells. It was always touted as a replacement for
lead at approximatly twice the raw material costs but 4 times the energy
density. I think this was overly optimistic from the typical research
perspective. Actual costs are higher.

All in all I am guesing/hoping that the prices will drop in half in the
next year or two.






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> in a nut shell, lithium ion prismatic cell construction
> there are 2 sets of chemicals and plates, LiFePo4 and aluminum
> and graphite and copper. cant remember which goes with which w/o looking
> it up)

>From a patent:

"A typical laminated battery cell structure 10 is depicted in FIG. 22.
It comprises a negative electrode side 12, a positive electrode side
14, and an electrolyte/separator 16 there between. Negative electrode
side 12 includes current collector 18, and positive electrode side 14
includes current collector 22. A copper collector foil 18, preferably
in the form of an open mesh grid, upon which is laid a negative
electrode membrane 20 comprising an insertion material such as carbon
or graphite or low-voltage lithium insertion compound, dispersed in a
polymeric binder matrix. An electrolyte/separator film 16 membrane is
preferably a plasticized copolymer. This electrolyte/separator
preferably comprises a polymeric separator and a suitable electrolyte
for ion transport. The electrolyte/separator is positioned upon the
electrode element and is covered with a positive electrode membrane 24
comprising a composition of a finely divided lithium insertion
compound in a polymeric binder matrix. An aluminum collector foil or
grid 22 completes the assembly. Protective bagging material 40 covers
the cell and prevents infiltration of air and moisture. "

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7026072-description.html

This is for a way of doing LiPoly, but you can visualize the steps involved.

--T

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From: "Timothy Balcer" <[email protected]>
> >From a patent:
>
> "A typical laminated battery cell structure 10 is depicted in FIG. 22.
> It comprises a negative electrode side 12, a positive electrode side
> 14, and an electrolyte/separator 16 there between. Negative electrode
> side 12 includes current collector 18, and positive electrode side 14
> includes current collector 22. A copper collector foil 18, preferably
> in the form of an open mesh grid, upon which is laid a negative
> electrode membrane 20 comprising an insertion material such as carbon
> or graphite or low-voltage lithium insertion compound, dispersed in a
> polymeric binder matrix. An electrolyte/separator film 16 membrane is
> preferably a plasticized copolymer. This electrolyte/separator
> preferably comprises a polymeric separator and a suitable electrolyte
> for ion transport. The electrolyte/separator is positioned upon the
> electrode element and is covered with a positive electrode membrane 24
> comprising a composition of a finely divided lithium insertion
> compound in a polymeric binder matrix. An aluminum collector foil or
> grid 22 completes the assembly. Protective bagging material 40 covers
> the cell and prevents infiltration of air and moisture. "
>
> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/7026072-description.html
>
> This is for a way of doing LiPoly, but you can visualize the steps
involved.

Is the US patent system the same as the UK's, in that you are allowed to
reproduce what you want from a patent without restriction or fee but only
when you sell the product do you need the patent holders permission?

Bro


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> Is the US patent system the same as the UK's, in that you are allowed to
> reproduce what you want from a patent without restriction or fee but only
> when you sell the product do you need the patent holders permission?

Unfortunately, no.

"The rights conveyed by a patent vary country-by-country. For example,
in the United States, a patent covers research, except "purely
philosophical" inquiry. A U.S. patent is infringed by any "making" of
the invention, even a making that goes toward development of a new
invention - which may itself become subject of a patent. In contrast,
Australian law permits others to build on top of a patented invention,
by carving out exceptions from infringement for those who conduct
research (e.g. for academic purposes) on the invention, or develop
further inventions based on the patented invention.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent

--T

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