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Discussion Starter #1
I saw this article on the web. it was four pages long here are my four lines
of notes everything else I had read before.*
*

*
*

*The True Cost of Buying a Volt ** * By Jerry
Edgerton<http://moneywatch.bnet.com/search/?q=Jerry+Edgerton>
Oct 15, 2010


Although the Volt qualifies for the IRS tax credit. It will not get all
state credits, Volt will not qualify for $5,000 rebate from California.
Volt drivers will also miss driving legally in car pooling lanes alone.

What about range? GM last year said the Volt would have a 230 mpg
equivalent, then Popular
Mechanics<http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests>,
calculated the mileage, including miles on battery power, at 37.5 mpg city,
38 mpg highway. [slipped the decimal?]
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #2
Rrrrrr. Dang, My TDI still gets 46 mpg and 660 miles per tank. :) Running
Bio is still better than the Volt. :)

-----
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Discussion Starter #3
I think the MPG difference continues to compare apples to oranges:
- MPG of starting with battery and tank full and driving until both are
empty, calculate the MPG over the total (the battery does less than 10%
of the trip so the MPG looks like a decent ICE: 38 MPG)
- MPG of a typical daily drive cycle with a recharge every night and
only running the ICE when the battery gets empty due to an occasional
longer trip. (the battery supplies in the order of 90% of the miles so
the MPGe looks like a decent EV: 230)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

I saw this article on the web. it was four pages long here are my four
lines of notes everything else I had read before.*
*

*
*

*The True Cost of Buying a Volt ** * By Jerry
Edgerton<http://moneywatch.bnet.com/search/?q=Jerry+Edgerton>
Oct 15, 2010


Although the Volt qualifies for the IRS tax credit. It will not get all
state credits, Volt will not qualify for $5,000 rebate from California.
Volt drivers will also miss driving legally in car pooling lanes alone.

What about range? GM last year said the Volt would have a 230 mpg
equivalent, then Popular
Mechanics<http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric
/chevy-volt-range-tests>,
calculated the mileage, including miles on battery power, at 37.5 mpg
city,
38 mpg highway. [slipped the decimal?]
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #4
Cor hits the nail on the head on this comparison.

When discussing range, it is crucial to know what the real-world driving
patterns are. Once you know how far we DON'T drive every day, then that
puts the PopMech road tests into perspective: 50% of Americans who
drive, drive less-than 25 miles a day the figure jumps to 80% drive 50
miles a day or less. Most of you are tired of hearing this from me by
now, but I challenge you to log your own daily driving patterns. It is
absolutely vital to solving the REAL problem to be aware of this data.
I drive about 13 miles daily: 6 miles to work, 6 miles back home. An
EV with a 15 mile range would work for me if it could be fully charged
in less-than a work day.

So the fact that the PopMech tests went over 25 miles put them in the
50th percentile (and in all tests they were still in EV mode at that
point). Once they went over 50 miles, they were in the 20th percentile:
their test only applied to 20% of Americans.

I'm not a Volt supporter/apologist, but PopMech violated the handy
mechanic's axiom of "Use the right tool for the right job", or in this
case "Use the diagnostic to test the correct part". The Volt is
designed to excel under the real-world conditions I outlined from the
1990 Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey graph of "personal
vehicle miles driven daily", which can be seen here:

www.illinois.edu/goto/mileage (the original non-sex'd up
version is below)
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/imageSnag/mileagegraph.jpg

IF the Volt is charged up nightly then it will satisfy 50% of America's
daily driving needs in all electric mode. However IF it can be charged
up BOTH at home as well as at work, then it will easily meet over 80% of
America's daily driving needs with a 60+ miles per 2 charges range.
Given the consistency of the human migration pattern (work, school,
groceries, home), you *don't* need charging stations everywhere with a
plug-in hybrid, so if one person was able to convince their employer to
install a charging station by saying "Hey, I'll pay for it -- you supply
the e for free" they cover themselves and perhaps one other.

Popular Mechanics gets an 'F' on "devising their own method". This is
to be expected, as they are not "Practical Mechanics" or "Scientific
Mechanics" but merely "Popular" and a significant part of being popular
is being able to make a scene, which they successfully did by reporting
such poor MPG (and not revealing their math).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

I think the MPG difference continues to compare apples to oranges:
- MPG of starting with battery and tank full and driving until both are
empty, calculate the MPG over the total (the battery does less than 10%
of the trip so the MPG looks like a decent ICE: 38 MPG)
- MPG of a typical daily drive cycle with a recharge every night and
only running the ICE when the battery gets empty due to an occasional
longer trip. (the battery supplies in the order of 90% of the miles so
the MPGe looks like a decent EV: 230)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

I saw this article on the web. it was four pages long here are my four
lines of notes everything else I had read before.*
*

*
*

*The True Cost of Buying a Volt ** * By Jerry
Edgerton<http://moneywatch.bnet.com/search/?q=Jerry+Edgerton>
Oct 15, 2010


Although the Volt qualifies for the IRS tax credit. It will not get all
state credits, Volt will not qualify for $5,000 rebate from California.
Volt drivers will also miss driving legally in car pooling lanes alone.

What about range? GM last year said the Volt would have a 230 mpg
equivalent, then Popular
Mechanics<http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric
/chevy-volt-range-tests>,
calculated the mileage, including miles on battery power, at 37.5 mpg
city,
38 mpg highway. [slipped the decimal?]
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #5
Here's a 10:35 minute long video showing a converted Prius averaging 583MPG in an 11-mile round trip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yof2bfkhDc8

----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Childress" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 9:41:34 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

Cor hits the nail on the head on this comparison.

When discussing range, it is crucial to know what the real-world driving
patterns are. Once you know how far we DON'T drive every day, then that
puts the PopMech road tests into perspective: 50% of Americans who
drive, drive less-than 25 miles a day the figure jumps to 80% drive 50
miles a day or less. Most of you are tired of hearing this from me by
now, but I challenge you to log your own daily driving patterns. It is
absolutely vital to solving the REAL problem to be aware of this data.
I drive about 13 miles daily: 6 miles to work, 6 miles back home. An
EV with a 15 mile range would work for me if it could be fully charged
in less-than a work day.

So the fact that the PopMech tests went over 25 miles put them in the
50th percentile (and in all tests they were still in EV mode at that
point). Once they went over 50 miles, they were in the 20th percentile:
their test only applied to 20% of Americans.

I'm not a Volt supporter/apologist, but PopMech violated the handy
mechanic's axiom of "Use the right tool for the right job", or in this
case "Use the diagnostic to test the correct part". The Volt is
designed to excel under the real-world conditions I outlined from the
1990 Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey graph of "personal
vehicle miles driven daily", which can be seen here:

www.illinois.edu/goto/mileage (the original non-sex'd up
version is below)
http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/imageSnag/mileagegraph.jpg

IF the Volt is charged up nightly then it will satisfy 50% of America's
daily driving needs in all electric mode. However IF it can be charged
up BOTH at home as well as at work, then it will easily meet over 80% of
America's daily driving needs with a 60+ miles per 2 charges range.
Given the consistency of the human migration pattern (work, school,
groceries, home), you *don't* need charging stations everywhere with a
plug-in hybrid, so if one person was able to convince their employer to
install a charging station by saying "Hey, I'll pay for it -- you supply
the e for free" they cover themselves and perhaps one other.

Popular Mechanics gets an 'F' on "devising their own method". This is
to be expected, as they are not "Practical Mechanics" or "Scientific
Mechanics" but merely "Popular" and a significant part of being popular
is being able to make a scene, which they successfully did by reporting
such poor MPG (and not revealing their math).

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 12:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

I think the MPG difference continues to compare apples to oranges:
- MPG of starting with battery and tank full and driving until both are
empty, calculate the MPG over the total (the battery does less than 10%
of the trip so the MPG looks like a decent ICE: 38 MPG)
- MPG of a typical daily drive cycle with a recharge every night and
only running the ICE when the battery gets empty due to an occasional
longer trip. (the battery supplies in the order of 90% of the miles so
the MPGe looks like a decent EV: 230)

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Dennis Miles
Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 7:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] The True Cost of Buying a Volt

I saw this article on the web. it was four pages long here are my four
lines of notes everything else I had read before.*
*

*
*

*The True Cost of Buying a Volt ** * By Jerry
Edgerton<http://moneywatch.bnet.com/search/?q=Jerry+Edgerton>
Oct 15, 2010


Although the Volt qualifies for the IRS tax credit. It will not get all
state credits, Volt will not qualify for $5,000 rebate from California.
Volt drivers will also miss driving legally in car pooling lanes alone.

What about range? GM last year said the Volt would have a 230 mpg
equivalent, then Popular
Mechanics<http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric
/chevy-volt-range-tests>,
calculated the mileage, including miles on battery power, at 37.5 mpg
city,
38 mpg highway. [slipped the decimal?]
--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #6
Real world driving conditions. I drive 5 days per week 22 miles each way to
work. Mostly flat but one short but steep hill on the way back the same
route. 2 miles are up hill from the Freeway to the Hospital but at city
speeds of 35 mph with many stop lights along the way. Not a terrible climb.
Down hill on the way back to the freeway. Going out of town on the freeway
there is now a light at the base of the steep hill. So some days I could
keep the vehicle moving and others I'd have to start from a dead stop. Ouch.
The freeway speeds are 55 mph but the majority of the time its more like 65
mph. That is the nature of our hwy here. So that is my real world driving
requirements and I can't charge at work so I need a solid 60 miles per day
to be safe and to be able to do that at freeway speeds. That is real world
driving conditions. I'd suspect that the mpg stated in the article were mpg
in gas only mode and not combined mode. My TDI provides 3 wks worth of fuel
so I only have to bother with that once every three weeks. I can also keep
up with traffic in any condition and can make those hills with no trouble.
True MPG are between 42 mpg and 48 mpg if I am easy on the throttle. Also
given we have a chip and larger injectors. Running Bio is excellent and we
love the TDI. However we really want to do this like this in an all electric
vehicle. I don't mind having to charge on a daily basis, no hassle at some
stinky gas station. Just plug and play. :)

Pete :)

I did like that Prius plugin conversion. That was pretty good.

-----
If you don't understand, be patient, you will. Now I understand. :)
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/The-True-Cost-of-Buying-a-Volt-tp3006571p3007474.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #7
Matthew wrote:

> Cor hits the nail on the head on this comparison.
>
> When discussing range, it is crucial to know what the real-world
> driving
> patterns are. Once you know how far we DON'T drive every day, then
> that
> puts the PopMech road tests into perspective: 50% of Americans who
> drive, drive less-than 25 miles a day the figure jumps to 80% drive 50
> miles a day or less. Most of you are tired of hearing this from me by
> now, but I challenge you to log your own daily driving patterns. It
> is
> absolutely vital to solving the REAL problem to be aware of this data.
> I drive about 13 miles daily: 6 miles to work, 6 miles back home. An
> EV with a 15 mile range would work for me if it could be fully charged
> in less-than a work day.
>
> So the fact that the PopMech tests went over 25 miles put them in the
> 50th percentile (and in all tests they were still in EV mode at that
> point). Once they went over 50 miles, they were in the 20th
> percentile:
> their test only applied to 20% of Americans.
>
> I'm not a Volt supporter/apologist, but PopMech violated the handy
> mechanic's axiom of "Use the right tool for the right job", or in this
> case "Use the diagnostic to test the correct part". The Volt is
> designed to excel under the real-world conditions I outlined from the
> 1990 Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey graph of "personal
> vehicle miles driven daily", which can be seen here:
>
> www.illinois.edu/goto/mileage (the original non-sex'd up
> version is below)
> http://jcwinnie.biz/wordpress/imageSnag/mileagegraph.jpg
>
> IF the Volt is charged up nightly then it will satisfy 50% of
> America's
> daily driving needs in all electric mode. However IF it can be
> charged
> up BOTH at home as well as at work, then it will easily meet over
> 80% of
> America's daily driving needs with a 60+ miles per 2 charges range.
> Given the consistency of the human migration pattern (work, school,
> groceries, home), you *don't* need charging stations everywhere with a
> plug-in hybrid, so if one person was able to convince their employer
> to
> install a charging station by saying "Hey, I'll pay for it -- you
> supply
> the e for free" they cover themselves and perhaps one other.
>
> Popular Mechanics gets an 'F' on "devising their own method". This is
> to be expected, as they are not "Practical Mechanics" or "Scientific
> Mechanics" but merely "Popular" and a significant part of being
> popular
> is being able to make a scene, which they successfully did by
> reporting
> such poor MPG (and not revealing their math).
>
> [email protected]
>

Matt, I suggest (if you haven't already) that you send your post into
PM as a letter in response to what sounds like a rather (typically)
lame piece.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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