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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Damon:

None of us are against paying our share.

But look... In Washington State, a 3/4 Ton Pick-up does not pay the
same as a 18 Wheeler. It is based on Road Use, fuel use, and weight of
the vehicle. It should be the same with all the Different EV's

We just think some kind of sliding scale should apply to EV;s too.

After all, a guy with a little GEM NEV, driving 2000 miles a year,
shouldn't be taxed at the same rate as a guy with a TESLA Roadster ( who
can well afford the $100 ) or a Two Ton SMITH Electric Delivery truck,
which should probably pay MORE.
or a guy with a Volt, or Leaf, or an Electric Scooter... They should
all pay their share, but not a Flat Fee cross the board.

IMHO......
---

From: damon henry<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State Senate Bill 5251 was Feb 8th SEVA
Meeting - Very IMPORTANT
To: EV List<[email protected]>
Message-ID:<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi Steve,
This is the second email I have seen this morning from a fellow Washington EVr in regards to this and painting it in a negative light. I have not actually looked up the bill myself and was not aware of it until these two emails, so I'm in no way enlightened yet.
I'm wondering why the automatic opposition. I don't see anything terribly unreasonable about a flat rate tax for EV's of $100 annual. Many of the alternatives would spook me a lot worse, and it is clear that without buying gas, you are not paying your fair share for the roads. In fact you could even look at it as an incentive to drive your EV more! Well, I paid the tax so I might as well make it worth my money:) All David Nelson has to do to keep from paying 5 cents a mile is drive 10,000 miles instead of 5000.
I personally do not mind paying for the roads I drive on. I do a lot of hiking in our beautiful outdoors, and I'm always amazed that the pioneers were able to get themselves here on trails instead of roads.
damon


--
Steven S Lough
President: Seattle EV Associatin
206 524 1351
WEB: www.seattleeva.org

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Ok, well I can certainly see that point of view, my problem comes with implementation. It seems next to impossible to come up with a solution that everyone would consider fair, would end up costing anyone a significant amount less, and people would not feel infringed on their right to privacy. Is SEVA planning on offering an alternative solution, or simply protesting what is currently being proposed? I think until I see a solution in the works that feels more equitable and is easy for everyone to understand I will be a supporter of the current proposal. I remember a few years back John Wayland protesting a similar EV tax in Oregon which as far as I know is still currently on the books. I believe it is a double registration fee for EVs which worked out to be about $35 annual. The details are a bit fuzzy though.
Just for a frame of reference I looked up some figures for my two current gas vehicles.
At 37.5 cents a gallon it looks like my Honda Insight costs me about .625 cents per mile in state of Washington gas taxes and my wifes SUV is roughly 3 times that or 1.875 cents a mile. So I can definitely see where this feels unfair to some EV users, but for me you are just not talking about enough total money to get fired up over.
damon



> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 11:24:43 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...
>
> Hi Damon:
>
> None of us are against paying our share.
>
> But look... In Washington State, a 3/4 Ton Pick-up does not pay the
> same as a 18 Wheeler. It is based on Road Use, fuel use, and weight of
> the vehicle. It should be the same with all the Different EV's
>
> We just think some kind of sliding scale should apply to EV;s too.
>
> After all, a guy with a little GEM NEV, driving 2000 miles a year,
> shouldn't be taxed at the same rate as a guy with a TESLA Roadster ( who
> can well afford the $100 ) or a Two Ton SMITH Electric Delivery truck,
> which should probably pay MORE.
> or a guy with a Volt, or Leaf, or an Electric Scooter... They should
> all pay their share, but not a Flat Fee cross the board.
>
> IMHO......


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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I know there is a lot of Emotional Responses to a "Flat Tax" but the only
valid scaling factor on my title is vehicle weight so perhaps a sliding
scale based upon the same scale already used on Semi-Tractor & Trailer rigs
would be considered more fair???
Regards,
Dennis Miles
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Steven Lough <[email protected]>wrote:

> Hi Damon:
>
> None of us are against paying our share.
>
> But look... In Washington State, a 3/4 Ton Pick-up does not pay the
> same as a 18 Wheeler. It is based on Road Use, fuel use, and weight of
> the vehicle. It should be the same with all the Different EV's
>
> We just think some kind of sliding scale should apply to EV;s too.
>
> After all, a guy with a little GEM NEV, driving 2000 miles a year,
> shouldn't be taxed at the same rate as a guy with a TESLA Roadster ( who
> can well afford the $100 ) or a Two Ton SMITH Electric Delivery truck,
> which should probably pay MORE.
> or a guy with a Volt, or Leaf, or an Electric Scooter... They should
> all pay their share, but not a Flat Fee cross the board.
>
> IMHO......
> ---
>
> From: damon henry<[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Washington State Senate Bill 5251 was Feb 8th SEVA
> Meeting - Very IMPORTANT
> To: EV List<[email protected]>
> Message-ID:<[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Hi Steve,
> This is the second email I have seen this morning from a fellow Washington
> EVr in regards to this and painting it in a negative light. I have not
> actually looked up the bill myself and was not aware of it until these two
> emails, so I'm in no way enlightened yet.
> I'm wondering why the automatic opposition. I don't see anything terribly
> unreasonable about a flat rate tax for EV's of $100 annual. Many of the
> alternatives would spook me a lot worse, and it is clear that without buying
> gas, you are not paying your fair share for the roads. In fact you could
> even look at it as an incentive to drive your EV more! Well, I paid the tax
> so I might as well make it worth my money:) All David Nelson has to do to
> keep from paying 5 cents a mile is drive 10,000 miles instead of 5000.
> I personally do not mind paying for the roads I drive on. I do a lot of
> hiking in our beautiful outdoors, and I'm always amazed that the pioneers
> were able to get themselves here on trails instead of roads.
> damon
>
>
> --
> Steven S Lough
> President: Seattle EV Associatin
> 206 524 1351
> WEB: www.seattleeva.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
In NZ a few of us wrote to the minister of transport suggesting that EV's be
free of road user charges, and they actually did it. It is quite easy to do
that here and get a personal reply sometimes.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, 28 January 2011 9:12 a.m.
To: EV List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...



Ok, well I can certainly see that point of view, my problem comes with
implementation. It seems next to impossible to come up with a solution that
everyone would consider fair, would end up costing anyone a significant
amount less, and people would not feel infringed on their right to privacy.
Is SEVA planning on offering an alternative solution, or simply protesting
what is currently being proposed? I think until I see a solution in the
works that feels more equitable and is easy for everyone to understand I
will be a supporter of the current proposal. I remember a few years back
John Wayland protesting a similar EV tax in Oregon which as far as I know is
still currently on the books. I believe it is a double registration fee for
EVs which worked out to be about $35 annual. The details are a bit fuzzy
though.
Just for a frame of reference I looked up some figures for my two current
gas vehicles.
At 37.5 cents a gallon it looks like my Honda Insight costs me about .625
cents per mile in state of Washington gas taxes and my wifes SUV is roughly
3 times that or 1.875 cents a mile. So I can definitely see where this feels
unfair to some EV users, but for me you are just not talking about enough
total money to get fired up over.
damon



> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 11:24:43 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...
>
> Hi Damon:
>
> None of us are against paying our share.
>
> But look... In Washington State, a 3/4 Ton Pick-up does not pay the
> same as a 18 Wheeler. It is based on Road Use, fuel use, and weight of
> the vehicle. It should be the same with all the Different EV's
>
> We just think some kind of sliding scale should apply to EV;s too.
>
> After all, a guy with a little GEM NEV, driving 2000 miles a year,
> shouldn't be taxed at the same rate as a guy with a TESLA Roadster ( who
> can well afford the $100 ) or a Two Ton SMITH Electric Delivery truck,
> which should probably pay MORE.
> or a guy with a Volt, or Leaf, or an Electric Scooter... They should
> all pay their share, but not a Flat Fee cross the board.
>
> IMHO......


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Dennis Miles wrote:
> I know there is a lot of Emotional Responses to a "Flat Tax" but the only
> valid scaling factor on my title is vehicle weight so perhaps a sliding
> scale based upon the same scale already used on Semi-Tractor & Trailer rigs
> would be considered more fair???

In my Civil Engineering era, I learned that essentially all traffic
induced roadway damage came from heavy trucks. If our highways, built
for heavy trucks, had only 3,000-5,000 lb vehicle traffic they would
last nearly forever. Recall that trucks used to be plastered with
signs that said something like: "This truck pays $4,000 (or $5,000) per
year in road use taxes"? The implication being that they were paying
their "fair share". Not so! On a cost allocation basis, it would make
sense to tax ONLY vehicles above about ~20,000 lb.

Taking a WAG, I venture that true cost of annual roadway maintenance
attributed to a ~72,000 lb truck might be around $100K. That
difference between what is paid and the cost incurred amounts to a
government subsidy of trucking. That subsidy might be of more use if
spread to railroads or other transporters.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 137 days 17 hours 08 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
> All David Nelson has to do to keep from paying 5 cents a mile is drive 10,000 miles instead of 5000.

That is funny, Damon. The most I ever drove my Gizmo with a lead acid
pack in a year was 2300 miles. Not because I didn't want to drive it
farther but because I was range limited. I was able to drive it the 5K
miles last year because of my LiFePO4 12.8kWh pack which dropped the
vehicle weight from 993lbs to 829lbs. My commute is 6 miles round trip
so that only accounts for ~1400 miles per year. Furthermore, driving a
Gizmo long distances leads to a very sore throttle finger! I know it
is my choice to drive this rig but I don't see why it should cost me
several times what it costs to drive my Honda Insight that is over
twice the weight and only one more wheel.

I may have mis-read it but I believe LPG vehicles don't pay $100/year
so why should EVs?

--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The State of Washington is in dire economic difficulties. I live in WA.
The state is closing tax loopholes and looking for new taxes with a
vengeance. Right now, the flat tax will be a bad public relations move for
the state and will bring in almost no money. I believe that all possible
incentives should stay in place until EV's are more plentiful on our
roads. The EV percentage now is nil. Eventually, EV's like all other
vehicles will have to pay a fair share of taxes and a means to equate the
EV tax to the tax now imposed on gasoline will be found.







>
Dennis Miles wrote:
>> I know there is a lot of Emotional Responses to a "Flat Tax" but the
>> only
>> valid scaling factor on my title is vehicle weight so perhaps a sliding
>> scale based upon the same scale already used on Semi-Tractor & Trailer
>> rigs
>> would be considered more fair???
>
> In my Civil Engineering era, I learned that essentially all traffic
> induced roadway damage came from heavy trucks. If our highways, built
> for heavy trucks, had only 3,000-5,000 lb vehicle traffic they would
> last nearly forever. Recall that trucks used to be plastered with
> signs that said something like: "This truck pays $4,000 (or $5,000) per
> year in road use taxes"? The implication being that they were paying
> their "fair share". Not so! On a cost allocation basis, it would make
> sense to tax ONLY vehicles above about ~20,000 lb.
>
> Taking a WAG, I venture that true cost of annual roadway maintenance
> attributed to a ~72,000 lb truck might be around $100K. That
> difference between what is paid and the cost incurred amounts to a
> government subsidy of trucking. That subsidy might be of more use if
> spread to railroads or other transporters.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 137 days 17 hours 08 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I understand that it does not seem fair, but my point is that it is only a little bit unfair. I mean come on it is only $100. That is not even enough to purchase one of the 100 ahr LiFePO4 cells you bought. So yes it could be made more fair, but you would still be entitled to pay something correct? So if there was some way to make the law absolutely fair the most it could save you is less than $100, and who knows it may even end up costing you more. That is what I worry about the most. For instance, you may have to spend $2000 to have a state approved charging system installed at your house so that they could accurately tax you $22 a year. Or maybe you would have to tow your Gizmo 200 miles to reach the closest DOT station that was equipped to certify your odometer reading for the year. There are a million nightmare scenarios someone could conjure up that would make us wish we had just taken the flat tax while we had the chance.
damon

> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:47:57 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...
>
> > All David Nelson has to do to keep from paying 5 cents a mile is drive 10,000 miles instead of 5000.
>
> That is funny, Damon. The most I ever drove my Gizmo with a lead acid
> pack in a year was 2300 miles. Not because I didn't want to drive it
> farther but because I was range limited. I was able to drive it the 5K
> miles last year because of my LiFePO4 12.8kWh pack which dropped the
> vehicle weight from 993lbs to 829lbs. My commute is 6 miles round trip
> so that only accounts for ~1400 miles per year. Furthermore, driving a
> Gizmo long distances leads to a very sore throttle finger! I know it
> is my choice to drive this rig but I don't see why it should cost me
> several times what it costs to drive my Honda Insight that is over
> twice the weight and only one more wheel.
>
> I may have mis-read it but I believe LPG vehicles don't pay $100/year
> so why should EVs?
>
> --
> David D. Nelson
> http://evalbum.com/1328
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Wow, when we go to tri-axle on the tractor and trailer we increase the load
capability to 60 tons ( 120,000 lb.) on 26 wheels, as compares to 40 tons
(80,000 lbs.) on 18 wheels with tandem axles.
The toll road and bridge is very penalizing with a price for two axles like
a car being $X, for three axles it goes to $2X four axles is $3Xand five
axles is $4X for an 18 wheeler. Sp when they charge a car $1.00 they charge
that 18 wheeler in the other lane $4.00 and a seven axle would pay $6.00 but
it caries the weight of 30 automobiles at 4,000 lb. each.

Dennis Miles

Rick Beebe <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 01/27/2011 11:03 PM, Childress, Matthew wrote:
> > If the amount of roadwear caused by a regularly weighted vehicle (2-4
> > tons) is insignificant compared to a semi-truck, then a lightweight EV
> > is even more insignificant. Ironically when it comes to big heavy
> > trucks, MORE axles is better, however on toll roads this is actually
> > penalaized causing more road wear
>
> Agreed. I was just talking with a friend from Australia who was
> commenting that our dual axle trailers would be illegal there. They all
> have to be tri-axle to help reduce road wear.
>
> --Rick
>
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The "Stone Age" didn't end because they ran out of Stones;
It ended because they started using their Brains !
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
robert winfield wrote:
> uhh, 266 gallons would equate to 12,100 miles/year for my prius, which i drive
> about 19,500 a year (a prius is hybrid electric so this is sorta EV)

It seems lead conversions are un-likely to go more than 2,000 miles a
year. Lithium, maybe 6,000 miles per year at best. So, they want to
tax EVs at 2 to 10 times the rate of petroleum fueled vehicles?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 160 days 7 hours 12 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Willie

I agree that it is a higher rate if we think in terms of taxation by miles
used. The gas tax sort of does that. But trying to tax an EV based on
actual miles driven becomes either difficult or overly "big brotherish" for
some people including many politicians. So their rather simplistic but also
practical (from their perspective) solution is to ask: "if this was a
similar gas car, how much tax would we likely raise?". It's not completely
fair but to be honest it seems like a reasonable approach. I don't think
$100 a year is unreasonable.

A strong argument has been made here that the current system of paying for
road upkeep is not fair to cars in general. But that's unlikely to change
anytime soon. Given the current system I don't see this proposal as being
that bad.

Peter Flipsen Jr
"Willie McKemie" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 03:34:06AM -0800, robert winfield wrote:
> > uhh, 266 gallons would equate to 12,100 miles/year for my prius, which i
drive
> > about 19,500 a year (a prius is hybrid electric so this is sorta EV)
>
> It seems lead conversions are un-likely to go more than 2,000 miles a
> year. Lithium, maybe 6,000 miles per year at best. So, they want to
> tax EVs at 2 to 10 times the rate of petroleum fueled vehicles?
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 160 days 7 hours 12 minutes
>
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Willie McKemie wrote:
> It seems lead conversions are un-likely to go more than 2,000 miles a
> year. Lithium, maybe 6,000 miles per year at best.

That estimate seems awfully low. 2k/year is barely 5 miles a day.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Most people work at least 200 days a year,
throw in an errand or two in the weekends
and you are looking at a conservative 300
trips per year.
I don't know about your commute and I can't
find a value for an average but I am guessing
that about 12 to 15 miles would be a good
average commute for people with an EV, in line
with the 50% DOD of a typical EV pack that is
50-60 miles to 100% dead (still talking about lead)
so 300 x 12 x 2 (return trip) is at least 7k miles/y
YMMV of course.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...

Willie McKemie wrote:
> It seems lead conversions are un-likely to go more than 2,000 miles a
> year. Lithium, maybe 6,000 miles per year at best.

That estimate seems awfully low. 2k/year is barely 5 miles a day.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Lee Hart wrote:
> Willie McKemie wrote:
> > It seems lead conversions are un-likely to go more than 2,000 miles a
> > year. Lithium, maybe 6,000 miles per year at best.
>
> That estimate seems awfully low. 2k/year is barely 5 miles a day.

I THINK you've recently indicated you only put about 1,500 miles a year
on your EV? 15,000 miles in ten years?

I have a Jet Escort, nearly 20 years old, that has about 10,000 miles.
Not many of those years on the road, but that seems typical of
conversions. The Escort has been licensed and insured for the past
three years, but has gone only about 200 miles in that time.

Let's hear of real experiences! MY experience is that it takes
real dedication to keep an EV on the road and piling up miles.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 160 days 11 hours 51 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 12:56:05AM +0530, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Most people work at least 200 days a year,
> throw in an errand or two in the weekends
> and you are looking at a conservative 300
> trips per year.
> I don't know about your commute and I can't
> find a value for an average but I am guessing
> that about 12 to 15 miles would be a good
> average commute for people with an EV, in line
> with the 50% DOD of a typical EV pack that is
> 50-60 miles to 100% dead (still talking about lead)
> so 300 x 12 x 2 (return trip) is at least 7k miles/y
> YMMV of course.

I will stipulate that an EV COULD accumulate miles at that rate. But,
DO they? Please offer up your experience. How many miles per year
have YOU put on an EV? For how many years?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 160 days 12 hours 03 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Willie McKemie wrote:
>> That estimate seems awfully low. 2k/year is barely 5 miles a day.

> I THINK you've recently indicated you only put about 1,500 miles a year
> on your EV? 15,000 miles in ten years?

That's correct. But it's something of a special case. I converted the
LeCar when I was working for Cruising Equipment in Seattle. I was out
there 2 weeks, then home in Minnesota 2 weeks, etc. It was only 4 miles
from my apartment to work, so the miles the LeCar EV got those few years
was low (like ~2k/year).

Then I towed it back to MN. I work out of my home now, and so don't need
to commute to work work every day. So the LeCar was only used for
errands (~2k miles/year).

The last 1.5 years, it hasn't been driven while I rebuilt it. The old
battery boxes were replaced with larger ones to increase the number of
batteries from 12 to 15. I only got half of them in before winter hit.

If I go back to my previous EV, I was commuting 10 miles each way to
work every day. I put more like 5k miles/year on that one.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Let's say 7k miles is reasonable. The problem is what mpg to compare to.
Looking backwards, it's easy to pick 25m/g. But looking forwards, many
people will be driving vehicles that get 40-50m/g. At 40m/g, you would
would pay $66 in wash. state gas tax. At 50m/g, you'd pay $53. Why should
EVs pay more than their fair share (excluding truckers). $100 is way too
high.

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: 19 February, 2011 1:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] The Washington State FLAT EV Tax...

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 12:56:05AM +0530, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Most people work at least 200 days a year, throw in an errand or two
> in the weekends and you are looking at a conservative 300 trips per
> year.
> I don't know about your commute and I can't find a value for an
> average but I am guessing that about 12 to 15 miles would be a good
> average commute for people with an EV, in line with the 50% DOD of a
> typical EV pack that is 50-60 miles to 100% dead (still talking about
> lead) so 300 x 12 x 2 (return trip) is at least 7k miles/y YMMV of
> course.

I will stipulate that an EV COULD accumulate miles at that rate. But, DO
they? Please offer up your experience. How many miles per year have YOU
put on an EV? For how many years?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 160 days 12 hours 03 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Willie wrote:
>I will stipulate that an EV COULD accumulate miles at that rate. But,
DO they? Please offer up your experience. How many miles per year have
YOU put on an EV? For how many years?

Hi Willie,
I will offer that anecdotal stories do not prove anything,
so I think it would be best to extract data from the
EV Album about the real and operational (and regularly
updated) Evs, to get a better idea, but here is my story anyway:

I bought my EV in aug 2005 sans batteries and with a problem
(dropout in cold) in its electronics. After researching the
battery choices I ordered 2 pallets (for me and 3 other EVers)
of batteries and I reverse-engineered the circuit board that
caused the low temp dropouts, so I could fix it.
Somewhere in Jan-Feb 2006 I finally finished installing all
26 batteries in my truck (including a small extra box for
the last 4, as I had chosen larger batteries than original)
and I started commuting with it until the first day of
July 2008 when I sold it again.
During this time I accumulated almost 9,500 miles so this
works out to a little over 4k mi per year.
This is much lower than the 7k I estimated earlier and
that has nothing to do with unavailability of the EV
but just with the fact that my commute was slightly
shorter (only 10 miles) than average and I regularly
left the electric truck in the garage to commute by
e-Bike, or to travel abroad or to not leave the house
at all (work from home).

Now, before I bought this truck it has sat several years
in the driveway of another EV'er, but due to the dropout
problem it was not used and its batteries were pulled to
be used in another vehicle. Prior to that it was driven
maybe 100 miles per year being a demo object of PG&E
and that is how I could buy a 1994 S10 with 1000 miles
on the ODO:
http://www.evalbum.com/694.html

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Willie,

Here's my real world data. I have just finished two years with my EV and
commute virtually every work day going 5.5 miles each way. I also do
occassional short trips on weekends. I've just racked up 5700 miles which
means 2750 miles per year.

My range is limited and so my mileage is at the lowest end of what might be
typical, because I use 12v batteries. My little car can't handle the weight
of 6v batteries (unless I exceed GVWR which I refuse to do).

Peter Flipsen Jr
"Cor van de Water" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Willie wrote:
> >I will stipulate that an EV COULD accumulate miles at that rate. But,
> DO they? Please offer up your experience. How many miles per year have
> YOU put on an EV? For how many years?
>
> Hi Willie,
> I will offer that anecdotal stories do not prove anything,
> so I think it would be best to extract data from the
> EV Album about the real and operational (and regularly
> updated) Evs, to get a better idea, but here is my story anyway:
>
> I bought my EV in aug 2005 sans batteries and with a problem
> (dropout in cold) in its electronics. After researching the
> battery choices I ordered 2 pallets (for me and 3 other EVers)
> of batteries and I reverse-engineered the circuit board that
> caused the low temp dropouts, so I could fix it.
> Somewhere in Jan-Feb 2006 I finally finished installing all
> 26 batteries in my truck (including a small extra box for
> the last 4, as I had chosen larger batteries than original)
> and I started commuting with it until the first day of
> July 2008 when I sold it again.
> During this time I accumulated almost 9,500 miles so this
> works out to a little over 4k mi per year.
> This is much lower than the 7k I estimated earlier and
> that has nothing to do with unavailability of the EV
> but just with the fact that my commute was slightly
> shorter (only 10 miles) than average and I regularly
> left the electric truck in the garage to commute by
> e-Bike, or to travel abroad or to not leave the house
> at all (work from home).
>
> Now, before I bought this truck it has sat several years
> in the driveway of another EV'er, but due to the dropout
> problem it was not used and its batteries were pulled to
> be used in another vehicle. Prior to that it was driven
> maybe 100 miles per year being a demo object of PG&E
> and that is how I could buy a 1994 S10 with 1000 miles
> on the ODO:
> http://www.evalbum.com/694.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I do not live in WA, but what EV tax is implemented in WA, will likely
be copied by legislators in other states. So this tax will have an
impact on each an every EV driver where ever they are (no mater what
state/province/country).

Knowing each EV driver's yearly mileage will ultimately show my point:
a tax formula that factors in yearly miles driven and the weight of
the EV would be more fair than a lazy-legislator's flat-tax. But like
what has been posted, its likely too much work for lazy-legislators to
do this taxation fairly.

Though it could as simple as having an EV come in like an annual ICE
smog check: go in, read the miles, tax paid. Production EVs & pihs
would have their weight already on record.

For me, working 5 days a week with a yearly two weeks off means:
5 days * 50 weeks = 250 working-days a year. When I was a hp
Customer Engineer I should be so lucky as to work so little. I was
always working (7 days * 50 weeks = 350 working-days a year).

In some cases, I am a worst-case heavy weight as EV conversions
go, and a best case as commute miles go, yet not 250 but 350
work-commute days a year.

My 1985 S10 Blazer EV conversion weighed in at 5000 lbs (a lead-sled).

When I was working my commute was 10 miles (5 miles each way), 7 days
a week (10 miles * 7days/week * 50 weeks/year = ) 3500 work-commute
miles a year + 500 non-work/vacation miles a year, for a total of
4000 taxable miles a year.

Making up a calculation formula scenario, using:
-my heavy-weight Blazer as a worst-case EV example
-using GM's pish e-range of 40 miles for the annual mileage calculation
40 miles a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year, + 0 vacation e-miles
because it would run on fuel while on vacation (40*5*50 =) for a total
of 10000 taxable miles a year , and
-lazy-legislators targeting $100 annually

Working backwards ...
Definitions: where factor x is used in calculating the EV road-tax

$100 = x * (5000lbs * 10000 miles)
x = $100/((5000lbs * 10000 miles))
x=$100/(.5)
x=$50

Using that EV tax formula of (EV weight in lbs * annual miles) * $50
gives the amount of road-tax an EV would annually pay. nEVs, lEVs,
light weight EVs would pay less, lead-sleds like mine would pay $100
and commercial e-trucks and the like would pay for the damage they
are doing to the roads.

Now see, that formula was not so hard to come up with. Plus if you
think it needs tweaking/adjusting it is easy to do too.

Isn't High School math fun?
(lazy-legislators probably say their brains hurt right now)



{brucedp.150m.com}
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Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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