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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

Can someone please verify my formulas for calculating torque? These calcs
are supposed to figure out how much torque is needed to hold a vehicle
stationary at a particular grade, i.e. the point at which the motor doesn't
turn and the vehicle neither rolls backwards or begins to climb. I know
that this would be really bad for a motor, but I think it shows the minimum
effective torque needed to get the vehicle moving on a particular grade.
The rest of the calcs for acceleration and maintaining speed, I'll do later.

Peri Hartman

(sorry if the columns don't line up - they are tab separated)


Inputs: (for tires: W%R e.g. 175/65R14: W=175mm, %=65, R=14")

gross vehicle mass 1500 kg
incline 20 %
W 175 mm
% 65 %
R 14 inches
final drive axle ratio 3.53

Calcs:
overall tire diameter 0.583 m W * % / 100 * 2 / 1000 + R *
0.0254
force to maintain vertical pos. 2943 Nm mass * gravity * incline%
tire torque for vertical pos. 1716 Nm2 vertical force * tire
diameter
final drive torque for vert. pos. 486 Nm2 tire torque / final
drive ratio

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Discussion Starter #2
Here is a motor and acceleration calculator by the 4QD Company at:

http://www.4qd.co.uk/fag/current.html

This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was up.

For my EV with a GE-11 motor with a manual transmission at a overall gear
ratio of 19.495:1, the current is over 600 + amps with a 7030 lb vehicle on
a 7% slope at motor stall.

Changing the transmission to a GM TH-400 automatic which is modified for
manual shift only using a large 12 inch torque converter that has a variable
ratio from 1.8 to 1.0 at 1700 rpm which is the stall speed of the
transmission. The overall ratio is now at 1.8 x 2.75 x 5.57 = 27.5715:1 for
a 6840 lb EV at 0 rpm.

The motor will start moving the EV at 375 rpm on the 7% degree slope at a
150 motor ampere at a estimate overall ratio 1.3 x 2.75 x 5.57 = 19.912:1.

In a normal vehicle with a automatic, the differential gear ratios are below
3:1, so the vehicle will only start to move 100 to 200 rpm above the idle
rpm.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] torque formulae


> Hi,
>
> Can someone please verify my formulas for calculating torque? These calcs
> are supposed to figure out how much torque is needed to hold a vehicle
> stationary at a particular grade, i.e. the point at which the motor
> doesn't
> turn and the vehicle neither rolls backwards or begins to climb. I know
> that this would be really bad for a motor, but I think it shows the
> minimum
> effective torque needed to get the vehicle moving on a particular grade.
> The rest of the calcs for acceleration and maintaining speed, I'll do
> later.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
> (sorry if the columns don't line up - they are tab separated)
>
>
> Inputs: (for tires: W%R e.g. 175/65R14: W=175mm, %=65, R=14")
>
> gross vehicle mass 1500 kg
> incline 20 %
> W 175 mm
> % 65 %
> R 14 inches
> final drive axle ratio 3.53
>
> Calcs:
> overall tire diameter 0.583 m W * % / 100 * 2 / 1000 + R *
> 0.0254
> force to maintain vertical pos. 2943 Nm mass * gravity * incline%
> tire torque for vertical pos. 1716 Nm2 vertical force * tire
> diameter
> final drive torque for vert. pos. 486 Nm2 tire torque / final
> drive ratio
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #3
Roland,

How can the current drop from 600 to 150A
with almost the same gear ratio (19.9 versus 19.5)
and almost the same vehicle weight (6840 versus 7030 lbs)
at the same slope?
I would expect with equal vehicle weight and ratio the
current should be equal, or am I missing something?

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] torque formulae

Here is a motor and acceleration calculator by the 4QD Company at:

http://www.4qd.co.uk/fag/current.html

This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was
up.

For my EV with a GE-11 motor with a manual transmission at a overall
gear ratio of 19.495:1, the current is over 600 + amps with a 7030 lb
vehicle on a 7% slope at motor stall.

Changing the transmission to a GM TH-400 automatic which is modified for
manual shift only using a large 12 inch torque converter that has a
variable ratio from 1.8 to 1.0 at 1700 rpm which is the stall speed of
the transmission. The overall ratio is now at 1.8 x 2.75 x 5.57 =
27.5715:1 for a 6840 lb EV at 0 rpm.

The motor will start moving the EV at 375 rpm on the 7% degree slope at
a 150 motor ampere at a estimate overall ratio 1.3 x 2.75 x 5.57 =
19.912:1.

In a normal vehicle with a automatic, the differential gear ratios are
below 3:1, so the vehicle will only start to move 100 to 200 rpm above
the idle rpm.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:36 AM
Subject: [EVDL] torque formulae


> Hi,
>
> Can someone please verify my formulas for calculating torque? These
calcs
> are supposed to figure out how much torque is needed to hold a vehicle
> stationary at a particular grade, i.e. the point at which the motor
> doesn't
> turn and the vehicle neither rolls backwards or begins to climb. I
know
> that this would be really bad for a motor, but I think it shows the
> minimum
> effective torque needed to get the vehicle moving on a particular
grade.
> The rest of the calcs for acceleration and maintaining speed, I'll do
> later.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
> (sorry if the columns don't line up - they are tab separated)
>
>
> Inputs: (for tires: W%R e.g. 175/65R14: W=175mm, %=65, R=14")
>
> gross vehicle mass 1500 kg
> incline 20 %
> W 175 mm
> % 65 %
> R 14 inches
> final drive axle ratio 3.53
>
> Calcs:
> overall tire diameter 0.583 m W * % / 100 * 2 / 1000 + R *
> 0.0254
> force to maintain vertical pos. 2943 Nm mass * gravity * incline%
> tire torque for vertical pos. 1716 Nm2 vertical force * tire
> diameter
> final drive torque for vert. pos. 486 Nm2 tire torque / final
> drive ratio
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Using the standard transmission at stall at 0 rpm, the overall ratio in 1st
gear is 19:1+ and my motor amp meter will peg to 600 amp or more.

Using the automatic with a 12 inch torque converter with a stall speed of
1700 rpm, the motor increases from 0 to 375 rpm which only runs the
transmission pump which increases the transmission oil pressure from 0 to
about 50 psi which the vehicle will start to move. The motor ampere is now
between 150 to 175 amps.

The higher starting rpm at 375 rpm takes less motor ampere than at 0-1 rpm
using a manual or using a direct pump drive that I tried in the automatic
without a torque converter.

The direct drive automatic transmission pump drive also raise the motor
ampere at or above 600 amps which at times made the car jump and spin the
tires. Replace the pump drive with a torque converter that now has a
smoother take off. In name this is what a torque converter does, this one
multiple the torques by 1.8:1 at 0-1 rpm and decreases until it gets to the
stall rpm of 1700 rpm.

In this case, the motor rpm is up high enough at 375 rpm to start moving at
a lower motor ampere over a motor that has to start moving the EV at 0-1
rpm.

In my other car which uses the same type of transmission, the idle speed is
set at 600 rpm and my start moving rpm is closer to 1000 rpm, because I am
running a 2.78:1 differential with a 7.645:1 overall ration.

If it was possible to start moving the standard vehicle at 1 rpm, it will
take more energy and will kill the engine, then it does start moving at 1000
rpm.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] torque formulae


> Roland,
>
> How can the current drop from 600 to 150A
> with almost the same gear ratio (19.9 versus 19.5)
> and almost the same vehicle weight (6840 versus 7030 lbs)
> at the same slope?
> I would expect with equal vehicle weight and ratio the
> current should be equal, or am I missing something?
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 12:21 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] torque formulae
>
> Here is a motor and acceleration calculator by the 4QD Company at:
>
> http://www.4qd.co.uk/fag/current.html
>
> This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was
> up.
>
> For my EV with a GE-11 motor with a manual transmission at a overall
> gear ratio of 19.495:1, the current is over 600 + amps with a 7030 lb
> vehicle on a 7% slope at motor stall.
>
> Changing the transmission to a GM TH-400 automatic which is modified for
> manual shift only using a large 12 inch torque converter that has a
> variable ratio from 1.8 to 1.0 at 1700 rpm which is the stall speed of
> the transmission. The overall ratio is now at 1.8 x 2.75 x 5.57 =
> 27.5715:1 for a 6840 lb EV at 0 rpm.
>
> The motor will start moving the EV at 375 rpm on the 7% degree slope at
> a 150 motor ampere at a estimate overall ratio 1.3 x 2.75 x 5.57 =
> 19.912:1.
>
> In a normal vehicle with a automatic, the differential gear ratios are
> below 3:1, so the vehicle will only start to move 100 to 200 rpm above
> the idle rpm.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]>
> To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 9:36 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] torque formulae
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Can someone please verify my formulas for calculating torque? These
> calcs
> > are supposed to figure out how much torque is needed to hold a vehicle
> > stationary at a particular grade, i.e. the point at which the motor
> > doesn't
> > turn and the vehicle neither rolls backwards or begins to climb. I
> know
> > that this would be really bad for a motor, but I think it shows the
> > minimum
> > effective torque needed to get the vehicle moving on a particular
> grade.
> > The rest of the calcs for acceleration and maintaining speed, I'll do
> > later.
> >
> > Peri Hartman
> >
> > (sorry if the columns don't line up - they are tab separated)
> >
> >
> > Inputs: (for tires: W%R e.g. 175/65R14: W=175mm, %=65, R=14")
> >
> > gross vehicle mass 1500 kg
> > incline 20 %
> > W 175 mm
> > % 65 %
> > R 14 inches
> > final drive axle ratio 3.53
> >
> > Calcs:
> > overall tire diameter 0.583 m W * % / 100 * 2 / 1000 + R *
> > 0.0254
> > force to maintain vertical pos. 2943 Nm mass * gravity * incline%
> > tire torque for vertical pos. 1716 Nm2 vertical force * tire
> > diameter
> > final drive torque for vert. pos. 486 Nm2 tire torque / final
> > drive ratio
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Peri,

I'll assume your vehicle approximately weighs 1500 kg * 2.2 lbs / kg = 3300
lbf.

And the radius, r, of your tires is 14 inches (1.167 ft).

The force, F, required to hold your vehicle at a 20 degree incline is
approximately
F = (3300 lbf) sin(20) = 1100 lbf

The torque at the wheel, T_w, required to hold this force is
T_w = r * F = (1.167 ft) (1100 lbf) = 1283 ft-lb

At a gear ratio, GR, between motor to wheel of 3.53, the motor torque
required,
T_m = T_w / GR = 1283 ft-lb / 3.53 = 363 ft-lb (or about 492 Nm)

Regards,

Ed Moore



Peri Hartman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Can someone please verify my formulas for calculating torque? These calcs
> are supposed to figure out how much torque is needed to hold a vehicle
> stationary at a particular grade, i.e. the point at which the motor doesn't
> turn and the vehicle neither rolls backwards or begins to climb. I know
> that this would be really bad for a motor, but I think it shows the minimum
> effective torque needed to get the vehicle moving on a particular grade.
> The rest of the calcs for acceleration and maintaining speed, I'll do
> later.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
> (sorry if the columns don't line up - they are tab separated)
>
>
> Inputs: (for tires: W%R e.g. 175/65R14: W=175mm, %=65, R=14")
>
> gross vehicle mass 1500 kg
> incline 20 %
> W 175 mm
> % 65 %
> R 14 inches
> final drive axle ratio 3.53
>
> Calcs:
> overall tire diameter 0.583 m W * % / 100 * 2 / 1000 + R
> *
> 0.0254
> force to maintain vertical pos. 2943 Nm mass * gravity * incline%
> tire torque for vertical pos. 1716 Nm2 vertical force * tire
> diameter
> final drive torque for vert. pos. 486 Nm2 tire torque / final
> drive ratio
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter #6
On 10 Oct 2010 at 11:51, Roland Wiench wrote:

> This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was up.

FYI, Uve's calculators were rescued from the rubble of Geocities after Yahoo
bulldozed it, slightly reformatted, and reposted here :

http://www.evdl.org/uve/ev.html

http://www.evdl.org/uve/motor.html

http://www.evdl.org/uve/battery.html

I think they may also be available on some of the other Geocities rescue
sites and at archive.org.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for your reply (and you, too, Ed and Roland). I'm familiar with
Uve's calculator - or, at least I should say, I've used it a number of
times.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding Uve's layout, but how do you determine the time
to accelerate for a given configuration. Further, how long will it take to
accelerate on an incline?

It looks like all the calculatons are for maintaining a given speed. The
appear to take air resistance and incline into account, but not
acceleration. He also does a great job of plugging in values for certain
motors, batteries, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I think what Uve had done is wonderful. But, I'm trying (have tried off and
on for a few years) to determine performance from a different point of view.
Here's what I'm after:

1. The overall question: If I want X performance, what will the drive
components need to supply?
2. What's does it take to maintain a constant speed (Uve's does this)
2a. constant speed at an incline
3. What does it take to accelerate to a given speed in a set amount of time?
3a. accelerate on an inclinde
4. For a given gear reduction (through transmission and/or differential,
etc), what motor torque is needed for #2 and #3?
5. For a given gear reduction, what power is needed for #2, #3?

If one can get the answers for the above, then one can search for a motor,
battery system, controller or inverter that fits your desires. To me, this
is really important. In otherwords, If I drive my EV on a 20% incline, will
it be able to accelerate above 3mph? How about on the freeway at 60mph on a
5% grade - will it be able to maintain speed?

What I've done - and am trying to get help verifying the math - is put
together spreadsheet that does all the above. I posted a snippet yesterday
to hopefully get verification on the most basic elements. I'd like to
verify the whole thing and make it availalbe as a companion tool to Uve's
calc.

If anyone would like to work with me on this, please contact me off the
list.

Peri Hartman

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of EVDL Administrator
Sent: 11 October, 2010 12:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] torque formulae

On 10 Oct 2010 at 11:51, Roland Wiench wrote:

> This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was
up.

FYI, Uve's calculators were rescued from the rubble of Geocities after Yahoo
bulldozed it, slightly reformatted, and reposted here :

http://www.evdl.org/uve/ev.html

http://www.evdl.org/uve/motor.html

http://www.evdl.org/uve/battery.html

I think they may also be available on some of the other Geocities rescue
sites and at archive.org.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Discussion Starter #8
See:
http://evaosd.fartoomuch.info/library/ballpark.htm


--Steve

Peri Hartman wrote:
>
> Thanks for your reply (and you, too, Ed and Roland). I'm familiar with
> Uve's calculator - or, at least I should say, I've used it a number of
> times.
>
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding Uve's layout, but how do you determine the time
> to accelerate for a given configuration. Further, how long will it take to
> accelerate on an incline?
>
> It looks like all the calculatons are for maintaining a given speed. The
> appear to take air resistance and incline into account, but not
> acceleration. He also does a great job of plugging in values for certain
> motors, batteries, etc. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> I think what Uve had done is wonderful. But, I'm trying (have tried off and
> on for a few years) to determine performance from a different point of view.
> Here's what I'm after:
>
> 1. The overall question: If I want X performance, what will the drive
> components need to supply?
> 2. What's does it take to maintain a constant speed (Uve's does this)
> 2a. constant speed at an incline
> 3. What does it take to accelerate to a given speed in a set amount of time?
> 3a. accelerate on an inclinde
> 4. For a given gear reduction (through transmission and/or differential,
> etc), what motor torque is needed for #2 and #3?
> 5. For a given gear reduction, what power is needed for #2, #3?
>
> If one can get the answers for the above, then one can search for a motor,
> battery system, controller or inverter that fits your desires. To me, this
> is really important. In otherwords, If I drive my EV on a 20% incline, will
> it be able to accelerate above 3mph? How about on the freeway at 60mph on a
> 5% grade - will it be able to maintain speed?
>
> What I've done - and am trying to get help verifying the math - is put
> together spreadsheet that does all the above. I posted a snippet yesterday
> to hopefully get verification on the most basic elements. I'd like to
> verify the whole thing and make it availalbe as a companion tool to Uve's
> calc.
>
> If anyone would like to work with me on this, please contact me off the
> list.
>
> Peri Hartman
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]xx.xxx.edu [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of EVDL Administrator
> Sent: 11 October, 2010 12:32 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] torque formulae
>
> On 10 Oct 2010 at 11:51, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > This info is from the Uve's Electric Vehicle Calculator site when it was
> up.
>
> FYI, Uve's calculators were rescued from the rubble of Geocities after Yahoo
> bulldozed it, slightly reformatted, and reposted here :
>
> http://www.evdl.org/uve/ev.html
>
> http://www.evdl.org/uve/motor.html
>
> http://www.evdl.org/uve/battery.html
>
> I think they may also be available on some of the other Geocities rescue
> sites and at archive.org.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To
> send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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_______________________________________________
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