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Discussion Starter #1
Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
I find that it has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
the transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

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Discussion Starter #2
Although I'm from Canada originally I've never used a dipstick heater. I don't know any Canadian who does. I'm used to true block heaters that heat the antifreeze via a heating element in the water jacket of the engine.

as to the question of transaxle oil I use Royal Purple which is supposed to be better for the higher rpm of electric motors. can't speak to the temp issue.

Peter Flipsen Jr.
-----Original Message-----
From: Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
Sender: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:01:39
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<[email protected]>
Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
I find that it has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
the transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

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Discussion Starter #3
On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 12:01:01AM +0000, [email protected] wrote:

> as to the question of transaxle oil I use Royal Purple which is supposed to be better for the higher rpm of electric motors. can't speak to the temp issue.

Thanks!
http://www.royalpurple.com
They don't seem to offer a lighter weight gear lube. I've put in a
query.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 17 hours 22 minutes

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Discussion Starter #4
May run a little noisier but I used to use Automatic Transmission Fluid in
my manual transmission and it greatly increased my drift time in economy
trials at any temperature. In the '70s Mopar used it in Differentials too;
but there was an additive for limited slip units. Considering the
availability I would use Synthetic ATF now.
Regards,
Dennis Miles
============================================================
Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

> Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
> fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
> to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
> be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
> I find that it has 75W-85 oil.
>
> Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
> hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
> consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.
>
> How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
> the transaxle?
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (813) ID4 - E V T I or (813) 434 - 3884 (I think word phone
numbers can be fun and good mnemonics aid memory.)
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Discussion Starter #5
I would stay away from a dipstick heater, it could burn the oil. 75w85 is a
synthetic hypoid gear lube. It could probably be replaced with an SAE 30
synthetic gear lube. Keep in mind you would be experimenting when changing
viscosities. Could your problems be related to cold batteries?
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/transaxle-oil-tp3042305p3042417.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't see what car you are driving but that is probably not important. An
EV only goes 50 miles at a shot. Gear oil is not needed. As a matter of fact
Porsche 928 automatic transmissions/transaxle is ATF. ATF is what mine will
have when done as there is plenty of lubrication in it for the job that only
lasts for 50 miles or so.

I plan on going a little further actually by using synthetic ATF. Synthetic
does not thicken near as much as Dino lube.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 8:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
I find that it has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
the transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

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Discussion Starter #7
I would stay away from a dipstick heater, it could burn the oil. 75w85 is a
synthetic hypoid gear lube. It could probably be replaced with an SAE 30
synthetic gear lube. Keep in mind you would be experimenting when changing
viscosities. Could your problems be related to cold batteries?
--
View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/transaxle-oil-tp3042305p3042414.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #8
Hello Willie,

I use a Full synthetic gear oil that will operate in very high temperatures
and down to -50 F. below. I use it in my EV, ICE and a mid engine vehicle
that has a transaxle.

I have run the EV at -35 below without any problem with the Valvoline
SynPower Part no. 975 which you can get at many auto parts store. Back in
1976, I ran Conoco Polar gear oil that was design for the North Slope in
Alaska which I also ran in the -30 below temperatures which works very good.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:01 PM
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil


> Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
> fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
> to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
> be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
> I find that it has 75W-85 oil.
>
> Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
> hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
> consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.
>
> How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
> the transaxle?
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #9
All said the plain and simple of it all is that the thinner the lube the
better the mileage will be, cold or warm.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 9:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Hello Willie,

I use a Full synthetic gear oil that will operate in very high temperatures
and down to -50 F. below. I use it in my EV, ICE and a mid engine vehicle
that has a transaxle.

I have run the EV at -35 below without any problem with the Valvoline
SynPower Part no. 975 which you can get at many auto parts store. Back in
1976, I ran Conoco Polar gear oil that was design for the North Slope in
Alaska which I also ran in the -30 below temperatures which works very good.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Willie McKemie" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:01 PM
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil


> Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
> fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
> to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
> be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
> I find that it has 75W-85 oil.
>
> Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
> hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
> consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.
>
> How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
> the transaxle?
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #10
>
> All said the plain and simple of it all is that the thinner the lube the
> better the mileage will be, cold or warm.
>

But below a certain viscosity, the oil film may no longer be strong enough
to prevent the gears from touching. In this case, metal will touch metal and
your gears will begin to wear, not to mention generate huge friction. Gears
don't last long once the lubricating film breaks down.

Manufacturers specify viscosity ranges for a reason. It is likely possible
that you can get away with a thinner lubricant, depending on how large the
factor-of-safety is in the factory manual numbers. Just know that when you
start messing with lubricant viscosity, you're messing with a careful
balance between interfacial pressures at the gear mesh and the ability of
the lubricant to maintain a film between the surfaces.

Best,

Bryan
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Discussion Starter #11
I can respect that but from a general point of view if a 300 horse power
Porsche differential can be run with ATF I would have to believe that an EV
commuter car can do just fine with it. Take a pint of gear lube in a glass
and put it in the freezer (with your wife's permission of course)outside
next to a glass of ATF. Try to pour it out in the morning, then with a
spoon. You will quickly understand where your cold weather mileage went.

Sincerely,
Mark Grasser



-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bryan Wilcox
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 10:09 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] transaxle oil

>
> All said the plain and simple of it all is that the thinner the lube the
> better the mileage will be, cold or warm.
>

But below a certain viscosity, the oil film may no longer be strong enough
to prevent the gears from touching. In this case, metal will touch metal and
your gears will begin to wear, not to mention generate huge friction. Gears
don't last long once the lubricating film breaks down.

Manufacturers specify viscosity ranges for a reason. It is likely possible
that you can get away with a thinner lubricant, depending on how large the
factor-of-safety is in the factory manual numbers. Just know that when you
start messing with lubricant viscosity, you're messing with a careful
balance between interfacial pressures at the gear mesh and the ability of
the lubricant to maintain a film between the surfaces.

Best,

Bryan
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Discussion Starter #12
AC Propulsion said part of their reason for great range was using the motor as
an inductor, which warmed it and then the transmission.

Another random thought: If you are having trouble shifting (especially for
clutchless folks), synthetic or thinner oil might make it worse.



________________________________
From: Willie McKemie <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, November 14, 2010 6:01:39 PM
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never
be reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual,
I find that it has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining
the transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #13
I'm running ATF in the manual transmission of my Honda del Sol conversion.
My mechanic said it will do fine for the short trips (25 -50 miles) and
lower power output of the electric motor. Much less power usage going to
churning the oil too.

Sounds like I might want to check into synthetic ATF when it's time to
replace the oil.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor fuel
economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs to me
that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never be reaching
normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual, I find that it
has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How hot
might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel consumption
with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining the
transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

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Discussion Starter #14
I never changed the gear oil but I noticed
that just the friction causes the gearbox
to warm up noticeably even with only 10 miles
of driving at Freeway speeds at 7000-8000 RPM input
into a manual gearbox fixed in 2nd gear to give
reduction between AC motor and driveshaft towards
diff in rear axle of S10 truck.


Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 6:32 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Now that it is getting a bit cooler, I'm noticing again relatively poor
fuel economy, especially the first 10-20 miles of each trip. It occurs
to me that, with the absence of a hot engine, the transaxle may never be
reaching normal operating temperature. Checking the owner's manual, I
find that it has 75W-85 oil.

Do any of you northerners have experience with dipstick heaters? How
hot might they make the transaxle oil? I'm seeing increased fuel
consumption with temperatures only down to about 50 deg F.

How about replacement oil? What might I use without risking ruining the
transaxle?

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 63 days 15 hours 56 minutes

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #15
Brink wrote:
>
> I would stay away from a dipstick heater, it could burn the oil. 75w85 is a
> synthetic hypoid gear lube. It could probably be replaced with an SAE 30
> synthetic gear lube. Keep in mind you would be experimenting when changing

It hadn't occurred to me that the OEM fluid is synthetic. That would
mean little to be gained by changing to another synthetic unless I
could find lower viscosity. I haven't seen 30w gear lube. I'm afraid
to use either engine oil or ATF in a differential. Especially since
this conversion started as a new car and now has only 14K miles.

> viscosities. Could your problems be related to cold batteries?

Not likely. This is a TS LFP pack. Mark mentioned than an EV has a
range of only 50 miles. We do a few short trips but our most common
trip is 60 miles and, as range anxiety abates, we have been doing
100-120 miles semi-regularly. What I perceive as a cold transmission
problem knocks at least 10 miles off the range.

Thanks to all for comments!

http://evalbum.com/2314
--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 64 days 3 hours 33 minutes

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Discussion Starter #16
Ask a local car dealer / lube shop what they put in
regular cars at wintertime?
I know that car manuals have always a range of
motor oil weights that is determined by the
expected outside temps, the lower the temps, the lower the weight.
So I expect that in colder climates the gear and diff oils
may also be selected to have the *same* viscosity at lower
temps as the default oil has at higher temp.
I know that significant experimentation has been done by
several Prius enthusiasts, one of which (Bob Wilson)
even maintained a database of oil samples from his car
and from any one that was sent to him, measuring how
much contaminations were in the oil from wear and from
other reasons. It may be interesting to look into his
experiments or even contact him to get an idea what is
possible to gain without jeopardizing your transmission.

He is on Prius Chat and on Prius Technical Stuff yahoo group.

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 6:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] transaxle oil

Brink wrote:
>
> I would stay away from a dipstick heater, it could burn the oil. 75w85

> is a synthetic hypoid gear lube. It could probably be replaced with an

> SAE 30 synthetic gear lube. Keep in mind you would be experimenting
> when changing

It hadn't occurred to me that the OEM fluid is synthetic. That would
mean little to be gained by changing to another synthetic unless I could
find lower viscosity. I haven't seen 30w gear lube. I'm afraid to use
either engine oil or ATF in a differential. Especially since this
conversion started as a new car and now has only 14K miles.

> viscosities. Could your problems be related to cold batteries?

Not likely. This is a TS LFP pack. Mark mentioned than an EV has a
range of only 50 miles. We do a few short trips but our most common
trip is 60 miles and, as range anxiety abates, we have been doing
100-120 miles semi-regularly. What I perceive as a cold transmission
problem knocks at least 10 miles off the range.

Thanks to all for comments!

http://evalbum.com/2314
--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 64 days 3 hours 33 minutes

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Discussion Starter #17
If you are worried about wear I'd just go synthetic. BTW my manual transmission uses ATF. So I went synth ATF. Lawrence Rhodes.......

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Discussion Starter #18
What make/model transaxle are you using? 75w80 is a real fine hypoid gear
lube. Chances are, you don't have hypoid gears. I have seen large earth
movers running 10w motor oil in the transmissions, 10w30 in axles. With no
hypoid gears, or limited slip differential, a synthetic motor oil ( Delvac)
would probably work fine.
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Discussion Starter #19
Automatic Front wheel drive cars use ATF in the differentials, at least, all
I can think of. Isuzu uses 20W30 engine oil in the ute gearbox, and the
gearbox fails if you use 90W. the old Austen mini, 1100, and 1800 used one
oil system for engine, gearbox, and diff, SAE 30.
I wonder what the differences in gear design is between all these
and diffs that need 90W? anyone know?


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Discussion Starter #20
Automatics, with their pumps, torque converters, valving and planetary gears
need low viscosity (ATF) fluid. Some manuals do have pumps, for lube reasons
(20w30). "old school" manuals, with sleeve and roller bearings and splash
lube would use 90w. It all comes down the engineers design requirements, and
what the accountants can get cheap. Lots of the time you can mess with
different oil viscosities in manuals, but it's always an experiment.
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