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Discussion Starter #1
---- Original Message -----
From: "Kyle Dansie"

> It all depends on who the Trojan dealer is. Some are good and some are
> downright sleazy. The one in SLC Utah is sleazy. Stay away from
> Standard battery on Redwood road.

or maybe new to the EV world , I sell parts and in the past have taken
quite a beating from people using them the wrong way . I have to sell
10 orders to cover one customer mistake just to brake even.
>
> The problem that I had with Trojan was on my motorcycle. The first set
> of batteries I bought were Costco "Deep Cycle" group 24 batteries.
> That set lasted about 500 mile.

Its common knowledge that deep cycle batteries don't do good as EV
batteries , why did you do this? I could see that the Costco sales
boy probably didn't know it and his boss probably didn't know it , so
you bought the wrong battery and when it didn't work Costco payed the
price ,, and I'll bet they still don't know what the problem was.

I returned them to the local Costco
> and they gave me a full cash refund. I told them thank you very much
> and drove to the local Trojan dealer cash in hand.

On to your second victim.
>
> I told the Trojan dealer that I wanted the best deep cycle battery
> they had and I needed it in a group 24 format.

More deep cycle batteries ..


I also told them I was
> installing them in an electric motorcycle.

This is the part where you feel you covered your self . If I go into a
gun shop and say I want bullets for deer hunting and then put them in
my home made zip gun which blows up in my face while shooting at a
dear , did I cover my self , should I get a refund.

They sold me a set of
> batteries and the receipt
said 48 month warranty. Fine I went home and
> installed the batteries. 18 months later and the Trojans were junk.

Are you still thinking Deep cycle batteries for your EV?

My
> 45 mile range had dropped to about 15 miles. I told them I wanted some
> new batteries. They told me to get lost.
>
Probably a different person. Some one who knew you had the wrong
batteries .. and this is who people who sell stuff need to be so
careful .

> Trojan batteries installed in an EV do not have a warranty period. Do
> not take my word for it, call the Trojan factory and ask them.>
> I argued with the store manager for about an hour before I left the
> batteries sitting on the dock and drove away. Next day I called the
> Trojan factory. Same story.

And what was that story ,, You asked for the wrong battery and were
unhappy with their performance.

>
> The Toyota truck was built BEFORE this happened with my motorcycle. If
> I had it to do over again I would buy Lithium batteries instead of
> floodies.

Well lets hope you do more research on Lithium's than you did on Deep
cycle batteries.
I may seem a little heartless here, but as a business trying to stay
afloat, with people that buy stuff and then break it because they
didn't hook it up right and want me to replace it ,, you guys are
killing me . Personally I don't know how the big guys do it .

>
> Right now I just hope this pack will last me long enough for the Leaf
> to get here and then I will be selling the Toyota pickup.

Steve Clunn

PS from Audrey: Getting the Leaf,,, IF it ever gets to market, isn't
going to solve any of your problems. You still have to be educated
and well informed. This site is one of the best sites on the internet
for "good" reliable information and feed back. If you really pay
attention to some of the "old guys", (Bob, Steve, Dennis, Roland and
LOTS more) as I have done over the last 5 years, you will find a
PLETHORA of information, GOOD, reliable, well researched and well
tested information. Don't ever TRY to REinvent the Wheel. These good
ole boys have made the mistakes, PAID the price... tested and
retested, talked and retalked and researched and RE researched every
EV component to death... they know what they are talking about. They
are not biased, they don't have an agenda, other than trying to HELP a
wannabe out, and take the EV movement to the next higher level of
success. Trust these guys... they WILL help.

Audrey
www.Greenshedconversions.com
>


> Cheers,
> KJD
> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>
>

--
Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Deep cycle batteries aren't good for EVs??? That's news to me, I
thought deep cycle batteries are exactly what you're supposed to use,
if you have to use lead.



Steve Clunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Kyle Dansie"
>
>> It all depends on who the Trojan dealer is. Some are good and some are
>> downright sleazy. The one in SLC Utah is sleazy. Stay away from
>> Standard battery on Redwood road.
>
> or maybe new to the EV world , I sell parts and in the past have taken
> quite a beating from people using them the wrong way . I have to sell
> 10 orders to cover one customer mistake just to brake even.
>>
>> The problem that I had with Trojan was on my motorcycle. The first set
>> of batteries I bought were Costco "Deep Cycle" group 24 batteries.
>> That set lasted about 500 mile.
>
> Its common knowledge that deep cycle batteries don't do good as EV
> batteries , why did you do this? I could see that the Costco sales
> boy probably didn't know it and his boss probably didn't know it , so
> you bought the wrong battery and when it didn't work Costco payed the
> price ,, and I'll bet they still don't know what the problem was.
>
> I returned them to the local Costco
>> and they gave me a full cash refund. I told them thank you very much
>> and drove to the local Trojan dealer cash in hand.
>
> On to your second victim.
>>
>> I told the Trojan dealer that I wanted the best deep cycle battery
>> they had and I needed it in a group 24 format.
>
> More deep cycle batteries ..
>
>
> I also told them I was
>> installing them in an electric motorcycle.
>
> This is the part where you feel you covered your self . If I go into a
> gun shop and say I want bullets for deer hunting and then put them in
> my home made zip gun which blows up in my face while shooting at a
> dear , did I cover my self , should I get a refund.
>
> They sold me a set of
>> batteries and the receipt
> said 48 month warranty. Fine I went home and
>> installed the batteries. 18 months later and the Trojans were junk.
>
> Are you still thinking Deep cycle batteries for your EV?
>
> My
>> 45 mile range had dropped to about 15 miles. I told them I wanted some
>> new batteries. They told me to get lost.
>>
> Probably a different person. Some one who knew you had the wrong
> batteries .. and this is who people who sell stuff need to be so
> careful .
>
>> Trojan batteries installed in an EV do not have a warranty period. Do
>> not take my word for it, call the Trojan factory and ask them.>
>> I argued with the store manager for about an hour before I left the
>> batteries sitting on the dock and drove away. Next day I called the
>> Trojan factory. Same story.
>
> And what was that story ,, You asked for the wrong battery and were
> unhappy with their performance.
>
>>
>> The Toyota truck was built BEFORE this happened with my motorcycle. If
>> I had it to do over again I would buy Lithium batteries instead of
>> floodies.
>
> Well lets hope you do more research on Lithium's than you did on Deep
> cycle batteries.
> I may seem a little heartless here, but as a business trying to stay
> afloat, with people that buy stuff and then break it because they
> didn't hook it up right and want me to replace it ,, you guys are
> killing me . Personally I don't know how the big guys do it .
>
>>
>> Right now I just hope this pack will last me long enough for the Leaf
>> to get here and then I will be selling the Toyota pickup.
>
> Steve Clunn
>
> PS from Audrey: Getting the Leaf,,, IF it ever gets to market, isn't
> going to solve any of your problems. You still have to be educated
> and well informed. This site is one of the best sites on the internet
> for "good" reliable information and feed back. If you really pay
> attention to some of the "old guys", (Bob, Steve, Dennis, Roland and
> LOTS more) as I have done over the last 5 years, you will find a
> PLETHORA of information, GOOD, reliable, well researched and well
> tested information. Don't ever TRY to REinvent the Wheel. These good
> ole boys have made the mistakes, PAID the price... tested and
> retested, talked and retalked and researched and RE researched every
> EV component to death... they know what they are talking about. They
> are not biased, they don't have an agenda, other than trying to HELP a
> wannabe out, and take the EV movement to the next higher level of
> success. Trust these guys... they WILL help.
>
> Audrey
> www.Greenshedconversions.com
>>
>
>
>> Cheers,
>> KJD
>> http://www.evalbum.com/3175
>>
>>
>
> --
> Tomorrows Ride TODAY !
> Visit our shop web page at: www.Greenshedconversions.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

www.electric-lemon.com

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I think the difference is almost semantics. What is ideal is a "traction
battery"
Most "deep cycle" batteries are RV batteries or marine batteries, the ones
you can get
at costco/autozone/kragen/checker, and they're labeled "deep cycle"

I'm not sure if trojans are labeled deep cycle, but they make models that
are specifically
for golf-cars (T125s ?) 6v and 8v

Someone else more knowledgeable please chime in here :)

I think the main difference is that regular deep cycle batteries can be deep
cycled but don't
like if often, and also don't like the amp draw (C/ rate ?) that they can
see in an EV, hence they fade fast.

I'm learning more and more every day on this list to be ultra careful about
choosing lead
acid batteries, I'm not going to get stung, and I'm not going to expect the
world from my pack.
If the math says I can easily do 55miles, I know that really means 30+ and
driving carefully.
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Discussion Starter #4
The Trojan Battery Co. Web site list these types of batteries under Golf and
Utility as deep cycle.

In installing these type of batteries in any EV, it is best to limit the
battery to 75 amps average, which I did with the Trojans for 8.5 years with
a 180 volt pack at a gear ratio's ranging from 13:1 to 19:1.

I am now using U.S. Batteries T-145's which the Marine Cranking Amp (MCA)
has improve from 950 mca to over 1100 mca in one year with 561 cycles on
them.

The ampere hour is rated for 251 ah and it took 335 cycles before it display
100% State of Charge (SOC) at a E-meter setting of 260 AH.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hymers" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] trojan dealer


> I think the difference is almost semantics. What is ideal is a "traction
> battery"
> Most "deep cycle" batteries are RV batteries or marine batteries, the ones
> you can get
> at costco/autozone/kragen/checker, and they're labeled "deep cycle"
>
> I'm not sure if trojans are labeled deep cycle, but they make models that
> are specifically
> for golf-cars (T125s ?) 6v and 8v
>
> Someone else more knowledgeable please chime in here :)
>
> I think the main difference is that regular deep cycle batteries can be
> deep
> cycled but don't
> like if often, and also don't like the amp draw (C/ rate ?) that they can
> see in an EV, hence they fade fast.
>
> I'm learning more and more every day on this list to be ultra careful
> about
> choosing lead
> acid batteries, I'm not going to get stung, and I'm not going to expect
> the
> world from my pack.
> If the math says I can easily do 55miles, I know that really means 30+ and
> driving carefully.
> -------------- next part --------------
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>

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks Roland, great info.

I also found these links which I'm sure many here are familiar with but are
great for newbs like me
choosing a first lead pack:

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/6-volt-golf-cart-battery.html

http://www.electric-cars-are-for-girls.com/8-volt-golf-cart-battery.html
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Discussion Starter #6
I think what Steve is talking about is what many of us call a "dual cycle"
battery. That's a typical designation for a cheap marine battery at the
department stores. It's not a true deep cycle battery, doesn't have the
proper construction, and won't last more than a few months in road EV
service.

In general, though, even marine batteries specified as "true deep cycle"
don't last much better for road EV use. A year is good service.

The problem is that marine batteries are designed for a trolling motors, as
evidenced by their reserve capacity rating at 25 amps. Low voltage (72-
120v) road EVs draw far more current than the battery can comfortably
deliver, and it wears out quickly.

Golf car batteries (at least the 6v ones) are reserve cap rated at 75 amps,
more in line with a golf car and close to what a DC road EV needs, so they
do better in road EV service.

The 8v flavored golf car batteries are part way between the two, and give
service life part way between the two.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #7
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> Deep cycle batteries aren't good for EVs??? That's news to me, I
> thought deep cycle batteries are exactly what you're supposed to use,
> if you have to use lead.

The problem is that "deep cycle" isn't a defined measurement like
"volts". It's more of a marketing term -- it means whatever the salesman
wants it to mean (like "natural" foods).

A "deep cycle" means discharging the battery until it is dead, and then
charging it back up again. Every battery can be deep-cycled at least
once. :) But the important thing is *how many times* can you deep cycle
it before it's worn out? The salesmen don't like to mention this!

A plain old car starting battery will be worn out by a dozen or so deep
discharge cycles. A "marine" or "RV" battery might last a hundred. A
"deep cycle" marine/RV battery might last a couple hundred. A golf cart
battery will last 500 or more cycles. The big industrial forklift
traction batteries are good for thousands of deep cycles.

Many EVers buy 12v marine/RV "deep cycle" batteries, and are dismayed to
find that they only last a year. But if you drive and charge each day,
that's 365 cycles in a year. If the pack barely has enough power to
provide the needed range, you are deep-cycling it every day. No wonder
they're shot!

BCI (Battery Council International) has defined test methods for
measuring the deep cycle life. Sometimes you can find this data on the
battery manufacturer's data sheet. A typical test for a 12v battery is:

a. Fully charge the battery.
b. Connect a 25 amp load until the voltage falls to 10.5v.
c. Compute amphours delivered (i.e. 25 amps x 2 hours = 50 amphours).
d. Repeat a-c until the battery's amphour capacity falls below 80%
of its advertised value.

Since a battery is still pretty good even when its capacity has fallen
to 80% of new, this test gives fairly conservative numbers. Thus the
manufacturers like to spin-doctor it to produce higher numbers for
advertising purposes.

The other "trick" is to use enough batteries so your normal trips only
use about half your battery's amphour capacity. Batteries last over four
times longer if only half discharged. This has the effect of doubling
the total miles you get out of your pack. Also, your EV can still do its
normal trips even when the battery's capacity has fallen to half, so you
can keep using an old pack even longer.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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