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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, after 2 years of trying, being gentle, firm, and weeding the pack
for failed batteries I have come to the conclusion that these UB12-260's
are worthless in driving a pack.

They just don't work. The final straw was a 3 mile drive with the pack
down 6ah when the pack (50 UB12-260's arranged for two strings of 25)
literally dropped most batteries below 10 volts at a 50a draw rate.
*most* of the batteries were dropping, a few were at 10.5 or so. So it's
not single batteries, the whole pack is basically hopeless. It will
happily charge up to 14.4 volts per battery, but that is el-it. 6ah
capacity for a 52ah pack.

What a pain. I can use the car through the winter for <5 mile trips, but
anything more is a joke. I would get better range with D batteries at
this point.

The right answer is and always was Hawker 26ah batteries. Even the used
ones that one could buy for $50 would give me 3 years of >30 mile range
life. And at the end of that and 3 years of sitting in my driveway, 30
out of the 50 are still in fine shape and able to handle a 100a
discharge test to 11 volts *without being charged in 3 years!*

Right now I would be better off putting those into my car and running
one string. But it's cold now so I will have to wait till spring. I feel
like a dolt; I replaced them because the range was *only* 20 miles. I
have never gotten 15 out of this pack, even when new.

The question though is where to get them? These used to be a few people
selling them out of UPS units, are they used anywhere anymore? Failing
that, what's the best way to get QTY 25 and 50? At $150 a battery I'm
looking at a 7500 pack. At $50 a used battery I was looking at $2500
which isn't bad for 3 years.

But this pack ($50 per battery for a total of $2500) has been a complete
waste of time and money.

Or has the price of lithium gotten any better?

C

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Discussion Starter #2
Chris,

The price of Lithium has been $1.15 per Ah for some time now,
It may be possible to get better deals but for a 80 Ah pack
(to stay below 3C discharge, not for capacity needs)
you would need approx 90 cells in series, so
80 x 90 x $1.15 = $8.3k for just the cells.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 4:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] UB's are not working,where are the best places to get
Hawkers?

Ok, after 2 years of trying, being gentle, firm, and weeding the pack
for failed batteries I have come to the conclusion that these UB12-260's
are worthless in driving a pack.

They just don't work. The final straw was a 3 mile drive with the pack
down 6ah when the pack (50 UB12-260's arranged for two strings of 25)
literally dropped most batteries below 10 volts at a 50a draw rate.
*most* of the batteries were dropping, a few were at 10.5 or so. So it's
not single batteries, the whole pack is basically hopeless. It will
happily charge up to 14.4 volts per battery, but that is el-it. 6ah
capacity for a 52ah pack.

What a pain. I can use the car through the winter for <5 mile trips, but
anything more is a joke. I would get better range with D batteries at
this point.

The right answer is and always was Hawker 26ah batteries. Even the used
ones that one could buy for $50 would give me 3 years of >30 mile range
life. And at the end of that and 3 years of sitting in my driveway, 30
out of the 50 are still in fine shape and able to handle a 100a
discharge test to 11 volts *without being charged in 3 years!*

Right now I would be better off putting those into my car and running
one string. But it's cold now so I will have to wait till spring. I feel
like a dolt; I replaced them because the range was *only* 20 miles. I
have never gotten 15 out of this pack, even when new.

The question though is where to get them? These used to be a few people
selling them out of UPS units, are they used anywhere anymore? Failing
that, what's the best way to get QTY 25 and 50? At $150 a battery I'm
looking at a 7500 pack. At $50 a used battery I was looking at $2500
which isn't bad for 3 years.

But this pack ($50 per battery for a total of $2500) has been a complete
waste of time and money.

Or has the price of lithium gotten any better?

C

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Discussion Starter #3
Christopher Zach <[email protected]> wrote:

> The question though is where to get them? These used to be a few people
> selling them out of UPS units, are they used anywhere anymore? Failing
> that, what's the best way to get QTY 25 and 50? At $150 a battery I'm
> looking at a 7500 pack. At $50 a used battery I was looking at $2500
> which isn't bad for 3 years.
>
> But this pack ($50 per battery for a total of $2500) has been a complete
> waste of time and money.
>
> Or has the price of lithium gotten any better?

I would strongly consider it if I were you!
For $7500 you could afford a 90 cell (300V) pack of 70AH - roughly
twice the usable capacity of the lead, and should last longer too.

I'm not sure if 70AH cells are an available size so you may have to go
up or down a bit.

And in general you should stick to 1C for the continuous current
requirement. So if you chose 60AH cells, that would give you about
18kW or 50kW peak - quite respectable for a small light car, but no
good for drag racing.

I replaced 100AH Saft Nicads in my Peugeot 106 with 180AH Lithium
about a year ago (and 11,000 miles) and haven't regretted it so far.

Remember to allow for a BMS that works!

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Discussion Starter #4
Chris Zach <[email protected]> wrote:

> There's something I do know; the Prizm typically pulls between 60a when
> cruising at 60mph with a voltage of about 310v. Driving the way I do the
> current goes up to about 120 or so for 5 seconds at a shot and 200a when I
> am really wanting to get somewhere.
>
> Peak continuious draw for me would be 140a for 3-4 minutes when climbing out
> of Frederick MD on the way to Hagerstown.

OK, so even the quite small 60-70AH cells should be happy. Does
anyone use cells of that size and can verify this?

> I've heard Lithium batteries were bad. But that was 3-4 years ago; are they
> better now?

Very much so. The LiFePo4 batteries have a good history (albeit a
short one). I think it was the older LiMn chemistry, and a shipment
of poor quality ones from TS which caused a lot of people problems
before.

> And how much usable capacity is in each battery? Does 60ah mean
> you can draw out 60ah at 60a draw with a voltage of 3.0 volts as your
> E-meter passed 60a? Or is it really 40,30,20,5?

Yes, pretty much 60AH. Even more than the rated capacity sometimes!
Although, as with any battery, running them down below 20% frequently
will wear them out sooner.

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Discussion Starter #5
Evan;

What BMS are you using

Thanks;
Dennis
Elsberry, MO
http://www.evalbum.com/1366


-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Tuer [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 4:31 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] UB's are not working,where are the best places to
get Hawkers?

On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Christopher Zach <[email protected]>
wrote:

> The question though is where to get them? These used to be a few
> people selling them out of UPS units, are they used anywhere anymore?
> Failing that, what's the best way to get QTY 25 and 50? At $150 a
> battery I'm looking at a 7500 pack. At $50 a used battery I was
> looking at $2500 which isn't bad for 3 years.
>
> But this pack ($50 per battery for a total of $2500) has been a
> complete waste of time and money.
>
> Or has the price of lithium gotten any better?

I would strongly consider it if I were you!
For $7500 you could afford a 90 cell (300V) pack of 70AH - roughly twice
the usable capacity of the lead, and should last longer too.

I'm not sure if 70AH cells are an available size so you may have to go
up or down a bit.

And in general you should stick to 1C for the continuous current
requirement. So if you chose 60AH cells, that would give you about 18kW
or 50kW peak - quite respectable for a small light car, but no good for
drag racing.

I replaced 100AH Saft Nicads in my Peugeot 106 with 180AH Lithium about
a year ago (and 11,000 miles) and haven't regretted it so far.

Remember to allow for a BMS that works!



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