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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not already been drilled? I
have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to my controller in front.
The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the cable onto a 1/2"
diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables usually have a hole for
a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area between the lug and the
battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to drill my own, but
haven't found a source yet.

Thanks

Dave Cover
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Discussion Starter #2
Dave,

FYI, evparts.com sells 2/0 lugs with 1/4, 3/8, 1/2 and 5/16 inch holes.

Ralph


dave cover writes:
>
> Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not already been drilled? I
> have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to my controller in front.
> The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the cable onto a 1/2"
> diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables usually have a hole for
> a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area between the lug and the
> battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to drill my own, but
> haven't found a source yet.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Dave,

QuickCable has 2/0 lugs with 1/4 inch holes. I have
never seen undrilled lugs. Could a 2 hole lug work?
They usually have a inch or more between the two
holes. And you could cut off the outboard hole.

Also, QuickCable has right angle lugs which have a
solid 1/2 to 3/4 inch area before the hole. You might
be able to cut those down and drill.

Jeff M


--- dave cover <[email protected]> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not
> already been drilled? I
> have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to
> my controller in front.
> The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the
> cable onto a 1/2"
> diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables
> usually have a hole for
> a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area
> between the lug and the
> battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to
> drill my own, but
> haven't found a source yet.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs

You might be able to use lugs from an anderson connector.
Bill

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs

I KNOW THAT IT MAY SEEM ODD BUT HAVE YOU TRIED YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICAL SUPPLY HOUSE ? oops didn't see my caps lock was on !!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill & Nancy<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs


You might be able to use lugs from an anderson connector.
Bill

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs

I got most of my lugs and related supplies from Wrangler Northwest; http://www.wranglernw.com
You have to download their entire catalog to get a hint of everything in stoc, as the website is lacking..
Their order desk is 800-962-2616
HowEVer, they couldn't get blank 2/0 MegaLugs as of 2 years ago..
For the bb600 cells, you need a #10 hole, not available in 2/0 lugs unless you're successful in placing a special order.
For the blank lugs, I resorted to heavily plated AC-type 2/0 lugs from a local supply house, drilled holes, and used liberal amounts of grease during assembly.
Note, the AC 2/0 lugs have smaller diameter ends, and it is very challenging to get finely stranded 2/0 inserted without losing a few strands..

Good Luck, and come visit the bb600 list; http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/


Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 7:14 pm
Subject: EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 7



Send EV mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Help: Too many murdered cells, DeWalt/A123! (Bill Dube)
2. Re: Zivan vs. others (Jeremy Green)
3. Re: Zivan vs. others (joe)
4. Re: Modified K&W BC-20 questions (Hunter Cook)
5. Bill, KillaCycle............Record????? ([email protected])
6. Mean GReen Mechines - Discovery Chanel (Steven Lough)
7. Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"? (Dmitri)
8. Re: Bill, KillaCycle............Record????? (Bill Dube)
9. EV Technician in NY (Jeff Kim)
10. Re: Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"? (Danny Miller)
11. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)
12. Re: Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"? (Roger Stockton)
13. Re: Mean GReen Mechines - Discovery Chanel (Dan Frederiksen)
14. Re: EV Technician in NY (Dave Stensland)
15. Re: Undrilled Lugs (FRED JEANETTE MERTENS)
16. Re: Zivan vs. others (Roger Stockton)
17. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (Dave Davidson)
18. Re: Modified K&W BC-20 questions (Hunter Cook)
19. Re: Nimh battery packs.. go for lithiums (Mike Scott)
20. Re: Sensors at drive throughs (Hunter Cook)
21. Re: I have an EV!!!! (And some questions) (Hunter Cook)
22. Re: EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 6 (Ricky Suiter)
23. Re: Modified K&W BC-20 questions (Roland Wiench)
24. Braille batteries (Tyler)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:31:47 -0600
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help: Too many murdered cells, DeWalt/A123!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

There is not quite enough information to really diagnose the problem.
I will give a couple of guesses.

>First guess<<
28 volts is too low if you are talking about open circuit
voltage without individual cell monitoring. The cells stay at about
3.3 volts for the bulk of the discharge curve. If you have a
"weakling" cell, it would be reversed at a terminal voltage of 28
volts (9 x 3.3 = 29.7 volts). A reversal could toast (or cripple) the
BMS. It certainly will beat up the cell badly.

>Second Guess<<
With individual strings instead of paralleled cells, there
is a greater chance for one string to hog the current. The impedance
is a strong function of temperature. If one DeWalt pack pulls a bit
more current, it might heat up and then start to hog the current,
causing it to heat up more. Until it gets to close to 100% discharge,
this pack could continue to hog current. At that point, it would
start to "share" the load and might reverse a cell later on as the
other packs discharge under load.

Bill Dube'





At 10:54 AM 10/2/2007, you wrote:
>they share very well in parrallel but have to be matched and not defective
>to make this well...
>imho you have some defective cells, it happen time to time on a production
>line.
> when you use 10 cells pack, 1% defective cell is less a problem than when
>you use a pack made out of 100 for exemple
>
>philippe
>
>
>e2007/10/2, Martin Klingensmith <[email protected]>:
> >
> > My guess would be that the batteries aren't sharing the load current
> > equally. I don't recall lithium batteries playing nice in parallel.
> > --
> > Martin K
> >
> > Jeffrey P. Kloth wrote:
> > > Hi, Hopefully some of you have been down this road and can help. I
> > > have a motorcycle converted with one Etek (brushed, Alltrax 48v
> > > controller) around 6:1 drive ratio. My problem is that though I have
> > > limited the Alltrax output to 150 amps, I still get many cell deaths
> > > when using multiple DeWalt 36v packs. I usually run 4-7 parallel and
> > > never let them go below 28 volts. The bike runs great and I can
> > > consistently get about 1 mile to a pack (bike and rider are heavy and
> > > many real hills where I am testing). Motor does not get hot at all by
> > > end of drain. I have run the bike at 48v but lately have been using it
> > > at 36v, which with the DeWalt is really 33v nominal. The bike is peppy
> > > and fine. I tap each of the DeWalt packs before the BMS and come out on
> > > a pair of 14ga wires which I then parallel for the multi-pack. The
> > > batts get warm but no where near hot after riding. I charge using the
> > > DeWalt charger and usually give awhile for the BMS to balance the pack.
> > > So far I have killed about ten cells. They are from random places in
> > > packs and usually only one in a 10s pack will go bad. Am I causing a
> > > problem by not using perhaps 12ga wire? The 14ga never gets warm. I
> > > cannot believe that too many amps output or too low cutoff voltage are
> > > the problem. The amps is at least divided by four batts or more. Any
> > > thoughts or help appreciated...
> > > Jeff K. Burbank, CA "Deep Cycle" and "Bike to the Future"
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
>_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:36:09 -0400
From: Jeremy Green <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

That's what I have and it works great. You can even run both for
even faster charging...

-Jeremy

Mark Dutko wrote:

> An option to consider would be two Zivans, one 120V for opportunity
> charges and one 240 for quick charging-
> On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:38 AM, Jeremy Green wrote:
>
>> That's odd, I have a 192v pack and I have an NG3 that works fine. It
>> only puts in about 8 amps but it is just my onboard charger. I have
>> an NG5 in my garage that is for the higher amp charging.
>> The NG3 is slow but it can fully charge the pack.
>> Lately I've been thinking that I should get rid of both of them and
>> just get one of Rich's chargers since it could do the job of both of
>> them (although sacrificing the isolation).
>> I don't think there is any harm in not letting a charge cycle
>> complete. I think the problems arise when the pack is chronically
>> undercharged or discharged too low.
>> The charger shouldn't be stressed at all by ending the cycle early.
>>
>> -Jeremy
>>
>> On Oct 2, 2007, at 9:52 AM, Steve Kobb wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> A few additional questions for the group:
>>>
>>> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it
>>> improved any
>>> aspect of your charging?
>>>
>>> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never
>>> reported
>>> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the
>>> Zivan
>>> specs on electroauto.com.
>>>
>>> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and
>>> 144v, whereas
>>> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That
>>> suggests
>>> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean
>>> that he's
>>> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing
>>> the Zivan
>>> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>>>
>>> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have
>>> to buy a
>>> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>>>
>>> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a
>>> charge and
>>> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan
>>> would
>>> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it
>>> off
>>> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the
>>> charger or
>>> to the pack?
>>>
>>> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>>>
>>> Steve Kobb
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-
>>> others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
>>> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>>> at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:36:58 -0700
From: "joe" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

I have been using a Russco on my floodies for several years - It works,
but...the charger of choice it the Rudman PFC-20. BTW, I don't have regs
installed.

Joseph H. Strubhar

Web: www.gremcoinc.com

E-mail: [email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others


> Thanks Bill, I'm glad you could sum it up so well for me. Seems weird
> that it doesn't have some sort of current limiter; even my K&W has that.
> I think if I get a Zivan I may leave the K&W in the vehicle, just for
> "limp charge" opportunity situations. Plugging into 110 is handy.
>
> Anybody have any thoughts on the Russco chargers?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Hunter
>
> p.s. Sorry to all for igniting the Zivan charger holy wars.
>
> On Mon, 2007-10-01 at 17:22 -0600, Bill Dube wrote:
>> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
>> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
>> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
>>
>> Zivan's got the reputation for "beating up" AGMs on the Sparrow. The
>> problem was, the Sparrow Zivans were programmed to give the 100% DOD
>> finish charge regardless of the actual % DOD. This is what Sparrow
>> asked for, and it is what Zivan gave to them.
>>
>> Normally, the Zivan is programmed to give a finish charge
>> duration in proportion to the bulk charge duration. This is why folks
>> with the "normal" program notice that their floodies use just a
>> little bit of water. If you tell Zivan that you have "normal" AGMs of
>> XX Amp-hrs, they will supply you with a program that does na
>> excellent job of charging them (with proportional finish charge
>> duration.)
>>
>> Put on some regs with your AGMs, and all will be fine.
>>
>> The Zivan has a couple of disadvantages, however. First, you
>> have to pick 220 VAC or 120 VAC. They don't make a dual voltage
>> charger (last time I checked.) They are also not power factor
>> corrected. This can be a problem if you are going to charge from 120
>> VAC at work, for example. You just can't suck the full wattage from a
>> 20 amp 120 V outlet unless you have power-factor correction. Also,
>> you can't easily turn the current down if you have a low-amperage
>> plug-in.
>>
>> They are great if you plug into your very own 220 volt
>> outlet every time, but are not at all good if you must plug in at a
>> friend's house or at a restaurant, etc.
>>
>> Bill Dube'
>>
>> At 02:14 PM 10/1/2007, you wrote:
>> >Can the Zivan do an equalization charge? I read the spec but saw
>> >nothing about that possibility. When you say you had to "re-plug in"
>> >do you mean you just restarted charging, and it charged some more?
>> >thx
>> >
>> >On 10/1/07, Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to
>> > agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and
>> > I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on
>> > Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences
>> > and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once
>> > to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.39/1044 - Release Date:
> 10/2/2007 11:10 AM
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:47:22 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain

Roland,

As always, thanks for all the info. Not sure I grok all of what you're
saying, but I think I'm getting most of it. I don't think we're talking
about quite the same setup...it looks like in this truck there is only
the one transformer doing what you describe a pair doing in the boost
circuit. Note that I'm describing the way it came to me wired up (as
opposed to something I'm considering wiring up). My assumption is that
he did it this way because he wanted the charge to handle a
higher-voltage pack. It's just one transformer with a single 120v
primary and two 20v secondaries. The 120v from the wall comes into a
terminal strip and goes to both the transformer and the BC-20. Then the
two primaries are series run to provide 40v to the BC-20 on the boost
circuit inputs, which are expecting 20v from the LB-20 boost module.

So, in other words, it's getting twice as much from its boost circuit as
the designers intended, which I assume means it needs a resistor
different from the one for 120v that the manual specs. I'm not sure what
it would need to be...all the voltages seem to have resistors about 4-6k
apart, except the last one (the jump to 120 with the boost unit) is 11k.
I guess given that it's a 12v increase and the rest are 6, that makes
sense and the 144v resistor would be about 22k higher, but that's just
my simple-arithmetic approach to the problem...not any real electrical
theory going on over here. I'll look inside and find out what resistor
is actually in there soon.

Meanwhile, if any of you Zivan owners has seen the light in that other
thread and want to upgrade to one of these fancy Brusa units, let me
know ;-)

Thanks again Roland.

Hunter



On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 09:53 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Hunter,
>
> The series connections in the primaries of several transformers is corrected
> for connecting to a higher input AC voltage, or increasing the out voltage
> on the total sum of the windings which will increase the secondary voltage.
>
> For example:
>
> Lets say you have two transformers that have a 120 volt primary with leads
> mark L1 and L2 and a 120 volt secondary leads mark T1 and T2. This is
> normally a 1:1 ratio transformer.
>
> The normal way to connect to this transformer is to supply 120 vac to the
> primaries to each transformer, which parallels the primary leads L1 to L1
> and L2 to L2.
>
> The secondary of each transformer will have a output of 120 volts.
>
> Now is we series the primaries of the transformers by connecting one leg of
> the 240 volt input to L1 and connect L2 of the first transformer to L1 of
> the second transformer and the second leg of the 240 volt input to L2 of the
> second transformer, you will still get 120 volts out each transformer
> secondary.
>
> If we connect the secondary of each transformer in series like we did with
> the primary, you can also get 240 vac out or can get 120/240 volt out if you
> center tap the secondary series connections that go between the two
> connections.
>
> Another way to connect the 120 vac input power to two transformers that
> primaries are series together, is to connect 120 volts to the first
> transformer primary L1 and L2. Connect the first transformer L2 to the
> second transformer L1 and no connection to the second transformer L2.
>
> You can apply the 120 vac power to the primary of the first transformer and
> using a volt meter, you will read 240 volts between the leads of the L1 of
> the first transformer and the L2 lead with no connection in the primary of
> the second transformer.
>
> This is what is call a boast circuit or some transformers call a potential
> transformers which have several taps in the primary.
>
> So the series connections you have for the 108 v battery pack should
> increase for a 120 v battery pack.
>
> Also check to see if you have the correct resistor for the 120 v battery
> pack as listed on page 7 of the manual.
>
> Tightening all the wire connections and inspecting the wire for crack
> insulation and etc, should be ok to fire it up or give it a smoke test.
>
> Using Uve's EV calculations, a 120 v battery psck of T-145's should give you
> a range of 66 miles at 10%D0D, or 33 miles at 50%. A pack of T-105's would
> be at about 15 miles 50%D)D at a speed of 60 mph with a vehicle weight of
> 4260 to 4460 lbs.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:18 AM
> Subject: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
>
>
> > Hello again,
> >
> > Some of you may recall that I've got an old K&W BC-20 charger trying to
> > charge a 132v (used to be 144v) pack, which should not (and in my
> > observation, does not) work very well. Some very knowledgeable folks
> > have said it's good only to 108v, or 120 with the LB-20 booster. So far
> > this has all sounded very reasonable, as in my experience the charger
> > will only bring the pack up to about 140-145v.
> >
> > This morning I really got in and looked at the way things were wired up
> > for the first time. It appears that it is wired with a larger
> > transformer in an LB-20-style boosting role.
> >
> > Specifically, there is a Signal Transformer model MPI-900-40 wired up
> > exactly the way the BC-20 manual shows an LB-20, except that the MPI is
> > using 2 20v outputs together in series rather than just the one 20v
> > output of the LB-20. Here's the pdf of the manual, which has a good
> > diagram of it: http://evdl.org/docs/bc-20.pdf
> >
> > I also found a loose connection from the plug to the MPI. Complete with
> > burn marks. Awesome. This may be related to the truck flipping the
> > breaker this morning when I plugged it in, which is what prompted me to
> > take a more serious look at where the wires were going.
> >
> > So...this brings me to a few questions:
> >
> > 1. Should this transformer + K&W setup work for a pack of my size? It
> > seems logical enough I suppose, assuming he also changed out the
> > internal resistor (haven't had a chance to check, and not sure what the
> > value should be as the target voltage is higher than the table goes in
> > the manual) and assuming the other components in the BC-20 can take the
> > extra voltage. Since the vehicle is pretty old, I guess they can.
> >
> > 2. How bad is it that I've got minor burns on my input terminal strip
> > for the transformer? I tightened up the connection and it works again,
> > though I didn't try for long.
> >
> > 3. Is this dangerous?
> >
> > I'm still in the market for a new charger, no doubt about that. But I
> > hope I can still keep limping around on this one for a minute. I do need
> > to move the truck about 6 miles this week (from my old house to my new
> > one) which believe it or not will probably require a charge in the
> > middle. I'm not really equipped to tow it.
> >
> > Thanks again for all the help everybody's been giving me.
> >
> > Hunter
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:54:41 EDT
From: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Bill, KillaCycle............Record?????
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Bill, when is the next time you will run the bike, is it ready to go, will
you bee making any changes.
Where is that 7 second pass? it must bee there somewhere, put Scotty on a
diet.

Jim...............waiting for a 7.99999 second run.





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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 13:08:46 -0700
From: Steven Lough <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Mean GReen Mechines - Discovery Chanel
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Bill and others...

Please try and POST NOTICE of this show as far in advance as
possible.... Got to get this one Recorded.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [email protected]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 16:24:39 -0400
From: "Dmitri" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

Craig Uyeda (Deafscooter) always claims to use some secret chemical he puts
in his Hawker and other lead acid batteries that triples their power output
and wins races. Sounds too good to be true, yet he has insanely performing
vehicles. Any clue?

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/956



------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 14:40:00 -0600
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bill, KillaCycle............Record?????
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

We are planning to take the KillaCycle to Las Vegas on the 25th-28th
of October for the NHRA Nationals.

Bill Dube'


At 01:54 PM 10/2/2007, you wrote:
>Bill, when is the next time you will run the bike, is it ready to go, will
>you bee making any changes.
>Where is that 7 second pass? it must bee there somewhere, put Scotty on a
>diet.
>
>Jim...............waiting for a 7.99999 second run.
>
>
>
>
>
>************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 14:40:25 -0700
From: "Jeff Kim" <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] EV Technician in NY
To: [email protected]
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

We have a need for an EV technician in the Albany, NY area. Does anyone
know anyone that we could contact in upstate New York?

Jeff


------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 17:09:39 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed

Cheetah blood isn't easy to come by.

Danny

Dmitri wrote:

>Craig Uyeda (Deafscooter) always claims to use some secret chemical he puts
>in his Hawker and other lead acid batteries that triples their power output
>and wins races. Sounds too good to be true, yet he has insanely performing
>vehicles. Any clue?
>
>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/956
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:24:17 -0500
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

well they could be using a reflective light emitting relay like is used on
production lines . however the most likely device is a proximity sensor .
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs


Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> People have said that for years. They sell the magnet for motorcycles
> to do just that. Most don't work. I thought they were actually a fiber
> of light that gets pinched when weight is on the slab.

The usual traffic sensor is a loop of wire buried in the pavement. It
forms an inductor. The circuit measures the inductance of this loop.
When a vehicle drives over it, the iron and steel in its chassis
increases the loop's inductance. This is sensed to trigger the "vehicle
present" indicator.

A permanent magnet won't have any effect, except that due to the small
amount of iron it adds. Water, snow, wet leaves etc. only have a trivial
effect. Interestingly, conductive non-ferrous metals like copper or
aluminum *decrease* the inductance of the loop. My old Comutavan had
plenty of iron, but had even more aluminum and so did not trigger these
vehicle detectors.

If you need something really small and light to trigger it, you could
use a loop of wire with a variable capacitor across the ends. You'd have
to tune it to a lower frequency than the traffic sensor was using. When
your coil passed over theirs, it would pull their frequency down to
trigger it. Unfortunately, this method only works for that certain
make/model of traffic detector. There is no "standard" frequency for
these things, so they vary from place to place.

[When I was in college, they had a traffic sensor to control the gate to
enter the parking lot. As a prank, we made a loop out of coat hanger
wire with a capacitor across the end, and tuned it to be detected. The
loop was duct taped to the gate itself. Every time the gate went down,
it detected a car, and opened it. Now it didn't see a car, and closed
the gate, which went back up again, etc. The gate went up-down-up-down
until the car counter thought the lot was full, at which time it stopped
letting more people in. People were confronted with an empty lot and a
sign that said "Full"!]

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:36:40 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Craig Uyeda's "doped lead acid batteries"?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dmitri wrote:

> Craig Uyeda (Deafscooter) always claims to use some secret
> chemical he puts in his Hawker and other lead acid
> batteries that triples their power output and wins races.
> Sounds too good to be true, yet he has insanely performing
> vehicles. Any clue?

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I'll believe he has
something when I see independent before and after test results for a set
of his "doped" batteries.

I've got a standing offer extended to our (Vancouver, BC) local
self-proclaimed battery rejuvenation expert to validate his claims by
perfoming standard before and after charge/discharge tests on batteries
of his choice. He's got nothing to lose if his claims are true; I don't
care what he does to the batteries to rejuvenate them, I just want to
quantify the change in performance... I have yet to be taken up on the
offer.

> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/956

The specs on this page are why I don't have any confidence in Craig's
claims. He states his go kart is using a set of "doped" 12V batteries
that are capable of 2400A for 5min. At the same time, he claims the
cart is running a custom 1600A 24V PMC (Curtis PMC, I presume)
controller... so how does he know if the batteries will deliver 2400A?
2400A is a lot of current; few people have the instruments to measure
it, and fewer still have the ability to apply that sort of load, never
mind sustaining it for 5min. BTW, 2400A for 5min is 200Ah, but the
batteries on this kart appear to be a pair of U1-ish size batteries;
even if he had some magic chemical that the battery company chemists
aren't aware of that allowed higher than normal currents, there is no
way it could allow one to get 200Ah from 35Ah-ish batteries.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:37:27 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Mean GReen Mechines - Discovery Chanel
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

EV shows could be recorded and made into a torrent and shared for those
that can't see them or didn't catch them

Dan

Steven Lough wrote:

>Bill and others...
>
> Please try and POST NOTICE of this show as far in advance as
>possible.... Got to get this one Recorded.
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:38:18 -0400
From: Dave Stensland <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Technician in NY
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi Jeff,

I live about 2 hours away near Ithaca. There are several of us on this
mailing list that are scattered around the area. It would be helpful if
you could be more specific about your needs we could better assist you.

What's going on?

Best regards,
-Dave Stensland
Megawatt Motorworks, Inc.
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com

Jeff Kim wrote:
> We have a need for an EV technician in the Albany, NY area. Does anyone
> know anyone that we could contact in upstate New York?
>
> Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:45:32 -0500
From: "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I KNOW THAT IT MAY SEEM ODD BUT HAVE YOU TRIED YOUR LOCAL ELECTRICAL SUPPLY
HOUSE ? oops didn't see my caps lock was on !!!!

----- Original Message -----
From: Bill & Nancy<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Undrilled Lugs


You might be able to use lugs from an anderson connector.
Bill

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For subscription options, see
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------------------------------

Message: 16
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 15:56:57 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zivan vs. others
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ben wrote:

> Zivan doesn't let end users program the
> chargers because they want to capitalize on the additional revenue
> stream of servicing / reprogramming the chargers. I'm sure someone at
> the company looked at resell values of chargers like Brusa's as well,
> and decided (right or wrong) that the high level of programmability
> might hurt future sales of new chargers, too.

I can't speak to why Zivan may have the policies they do, however, the
main reason that we (Delta-Q) don't allow our users to create their own
algorithms for our chargers is that our reputation as a charger
manufacturer hinges on how well or poorly our chargers treat the
batteries. The only way we can control this is by ensuring that our
chargers can only be used with algorithms that we have developed and
tested to perform well.

Our users can change the charge algorithm used by their charger at no
cost (they do need to purchase a USB dongle to communicate with the
charger if the algorithm they want isn't one of those already present in
the charger), but if they want an algorithm that does something
differently than those we have available, we have to create it for them.

Bear in mind that charger manufacturers tend to make their money selling
to OEMs, not individual hobbiests, and OEMs are very concerned with
warranty issues, etc. and want to be very sure that they aren't left on
the hook for premature battery failures because the user tweaked
something they shouldn't have, etc.

Cheers,

Roger.



------------------------------

Message: 17
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 23:15:40 +0000
From: "Dave Davidson" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)

Dave

>From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
>Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
>Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
>
>Roland-
>
>I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
>in my ICE car.
>
>Hope that helps...
>
>Hunter
>
>On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.
>How
> > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> >
> > To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
>use.
> > The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants,
>to
> > make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
>building
> > of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> > energy.
> >
> > I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy.
>A
> > lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
>energy
> > and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams
>we
> > have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >
> >
> > > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on
>my
> > > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
>cuts
> > > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
>(not
> > > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas
>I
> > > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> > >
> > > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
>the
> > > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
>inside,
> > > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
>(where
> > > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing
>the
> > > button and see if they notice.
> > >
> > > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
>Your
> > > Whr/mi may vary.
> > >
> > > Hunter
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > > >
> > > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
>night.
> > > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > > >
> > > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
>which
> > > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
>up
> > > > this abstract:
> > > >
>http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
>recommendations
> > > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > > >
> > > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
>listen
> > > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
>similar to
> > > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > > >
> > > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>_______________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:17:22 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain

I've now examined things further, and also found some schematics and
manuals the original owner included that I had missed. I now have a much
better understanding of what's going on here.

The Signal Transformer MPI-900-40 is doing just what I thought, and the
BC-20 has a 107k resistor. There was also a 118k resistor in a ziplock,
for 144v use, as well as the original card full of resistors to set it
from 48-120.

So my original thought that it has been bootstrapped for 144v seems
about right. What's more interesting to me is that the schematic that
shows the charger setup for 132/144v (well, and the rest of them for
that matter) is on KTA Services letterhead. Dated 12/96. So this
somewhat out-of-spec BC-20 installation wasn't just the maveric idea of
the prior owner of this truck...it came to him from some reputable folks
in the industry who've been around a while and seen some things. That
makes me feel quite a bit better about the setup.

Anyway, it's probably clear from my last post that I didn't get some of
what you were saying, Roland. But now from the schematics I see what you
are talking about with regard to the two 120v inputs going in parallel
for 120v output or series for 220...it's wired through this little strip
and hard to see that it's going two places. But definitely for 120v.
Similarly, now I see what you mean with the output options; there's an
adjacent diagram of a 114-120v system and the only difference is the
secondary wiring is parallel.

Of course, this leaves me wondering a bit why I can't get the batteries
above about 140v. I guess the batteries are just that bad? I'm thinking
about getting a 6v or 12v charger and just pulling a few off to see if
they'll take anything under more civilized conditions. After all, I need
to do some rewiring before I can charge the whole pack again...

Thanks

Hunter


On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 14:47 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> Roland,
>
> As always, thanks for all the info. Not sure I grok all of what you're
> saying, but I think I'm getting most of it. I don't think we're talking
> about quite the same setup...it looks like in this truck there is only
> the one transformer doing what you describe a pair doing in the boost
> circuit. Note that I'm describing the way it came to me wired up (as
> opposed to something I'm considering wiring up). My assumption is that
> he did it this way because he wanted the charge to handle a
> higher-voltage pack. It's just one transformer with a single 120v
> primary and two 20v secondaries. The 120v from the wall comes into a
> terminal strip and goes to both the transformer and the BC-20. Then the
> two primaries are series run to provide 40v to the BC-20 on the boost
> circuit inputs, which are expecting 20v from the LB-20 boost module.
>
> So, in other words, it's getting twice as much from its boost circuit as
> the designers intended, which I assume means it needs a resistor
> different from the one for 120v that the manual specs. I'm not sure what
> it would need to be...all the voltages seem to have resistors about 4-6k
> apart, except the last one (the jump to 120 with the boost unit) is 11k.
> I guess given that it's a 12v increase and the rest are 6, that makes
> sense and the 144v resistor would be about 22k higher, but that's just
> my simple-arithmetic approach to the problem...not any real electrical
> theory going on over here. I'll look inside and find out what resistor
> is actually in there soon.
>
> Meanwhile, if any of you Zivan owners has seen the light in that other
> thread and want to upgrade to one of these fancy Brusa units, let me
> know ;-)
>
> Thanks again Roland.
>
> Hunter
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 09:53 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Hunter,
> >
> > The series connections in the primaries of several transformers is corrected

> > for connecting to a higher input AC voltage, or increasing the out voltage
> > on the total sum of the windings which will increase the secondary voltage.
> >
> > For example:
> >
> > Lets say you have two transformers that have a 120 volt primary with leads
> > mark L1 and L2 and a 120 volt secondary leads mark T1 and T2. This is
> > normally a 1:1 ratio transformer.
> >
> > The normal way to connect to this transformer is to supply 120 vac to the
> > primaries to each transformer, which parallels the primary leads L1 to L1
> > and L2 to L2.
> >
> > The secondary of each transformer will have a output of 120 volts.
> >
> > Now is we series the primaries of the transformers by connecting one leg of
> > the 240 volt input to L1 and connect L2 of the first transformer to L1 of
> > the second transformer and the second leg of the 240 volt input to L2 of the

> > second transformer, you will still get 120 volts out each transformer
> > secondary.
> >
> > If we connect the secondary of each transformer in series like we did with
> > the primary, you can also get 240 vac out or can get 120/240 volt out if you

> > center tap the secondary series connections that go between the two
> > connections.
> >
> > Another way to connect the 120 vac input power to two transformers that
> > primaries are series together, is to connect 120 volts to the first
> > transformer primary L1 and L2. Connect the first transformer L2 to the
> > second transformer L1 and no connection to the second transformer L2.
> >
> > You can apply the 120 vac power to the primary of the first transformer and
> > using a volt meter, you will read 240 volts between the leads of the L1 of
> > the first transformer and the L2 lead with no connection in the primary of
> > the second transformer.
> >
> > This is what is call a boast circuit or some transformers call a potential
> > transformers which have several taps in the primary.
> >
> > So the series connections you have for the 108 v battery pack should
> > increase for a 120 v battery pack.
> >
> > Also check to see if you have the correct resistor for the 120 v battery
> > pack as listed on page 7 of the manual.
> >
> > Tightening all the wire connections and inspecting the wire for crack
> > insulation and etc, should be ok to fire it up or give it a smoke test.
> >
> > Using Uve's EV calculations, a 120 v battery psck of T-145's should give you

> > a range of 66 miles at 10%D0D, or 33 miles at 50%. A pack of T-105's would
> > be at about 15 miles 50%D)D at a speed of 60 mph with a vehicle weight of
> > 4260 to 4460 lbs.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:18 AM
> > Subject: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
> >
> >
> > > Hello again,
> > >
> > > Some of you may recall that I've got an old K&W BC-20 charger trying to
> > > charge a 132v (used to be 144v) pack, which should not (and in my
> > > observation, does not) work very well. Some very knowledgeable folks
> > > have said it's good only to 108v, or 120 with the LB-20 booster. So far
> > > this has all sounded very reasonable, as in my experience the charger
> > > will only bring the pack up to about 140-145v.
> > >
> > > This morning I really got in and looked at the way things were wired up
> > > for the first time. It appears that it is wired with a larger
> > > transformer in an LB-20-style boosting role.
> > >
> > > Specifically, there is a Signal Transformer model MPI-900-40 wired up
> > > exactly the way the BC-20 manual shows an LB-20, except that the MPI is
> > > using 2 20v outputs together in series rather than just the one 20v
> > > output of the LB-20. Here's the pdf of the manual, which has a good
> > > diagram of it: http://evdl.org/docs/bc-20.pdf
> > >
> > > I also found a loose connection from the plug to the MPI. Complete with
> > > burn marks. Awesome. This may be related to the truck flipping the
> > > breaker this morning when I plugged it in, which is what prompted me to
> > > take a more serious look at where the wires were going.
> > >
> > > So...this brings me to a few questions:
> > >
> > > 1. Should this transformer + K&W setup work for a pack of my size? It
> > > seems logical enough I suppose, assuming he also changed out the
> > > internal resistor (haven't had a chance to check, and not sure what the
> > > value should be as the target voltage is higher than the table goes in
> > > the manual) and assuming the other components in the BC-20 can take the
> > > extra voltage. Since the vehicle is pretty old, I guess they can.
> > >
> > > 2. How bad is it that I've got minor burns on my input terminal strip
> > > for the transformer? I tightened up the connection and it works again,
> > > though I didn't try for long.
> > >
> > > 3. Is this dangerous?
> > >
> > > I'm still in the market for a new charger, no doubt about that. But I
> > > hope I can still keep limping around on this one for a minute. I do need
> > > to move the truck about 6 miles this week (from my old house to my new
> > > one) which believe it or not will probably require a charge in the
> > > middle. I'm not really equipped to tow it.
> > >
> > > Thanks again for all the help everybody's been giving me.
> > >
> > > Hunter
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 19
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 15:53:18 -0700
From: Mike Scott <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nimh battery packs.. go for lithiums
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

My wife's sister worked for Ovshinsky in Detroit in the 90's, she says
the company was hurting until he sold that patent. Little things like
coffee, tea and even TP were just not available at that place, and
paychecks were getting rubbery before the deal...

MTS in SJ, CA


> He DIDN'T sell the batteries(patents) to an Oil company. But to General
> Murders FOR the EV-1! He, too, was enchanted with the EV-1, as it was the
> Gold Standard EV 10 years ago. Youse guyz that have driven an EV-1 know what
> I'm talking about? I think it probably Stan' s last harrah, as an' old
> man?He felt,as we all did that THIS was the all conquring battery, and by
> now A NMH powered EV would be in all our garages. You DID see "Who Killed
> the Electric Car'??Right?If you didn't (Gasp!)don't watch it on a full
> stomach!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob




------------------------------

Message: 20
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:32:37 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain

They're bad.

On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 23:15 +0000, Dave Davidson wrote:
> What about methane emissions from your unicycle's power plant after
> refueling at Taco Bell? 8^)
>
> Dave
>
> >From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
> >Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> >Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 09:21:00 -0500
> >
> >Roland-
> >
> >I can eat about 2 tacos per mile in the EV. More on the unicycle, less
> >in my ICE car.
> >
> >Hope that helps...
> >
> >Hunter
> >
> >On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 08:03 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Oh no, that is another calculation that has to make to run a vehicle.
> >How
> > > many taco's does it take to go a mile?
> > >
> > > To power a EV from a coal generation plant, the total cost should be
> >use.
> > > The energy to mine the ore to make the steel, to make the steel plants,
> >to
> > > make the machines to mine the coal, the delivery of the coal, the
> >building
> > > of the power plant, the delivery of the energy and then the cost of the
> > > energy.
> > >
> > > I do not use any of that except for the delivery and cost of the energy.
> >A
> > > lot of people ask me how my EV works. I tell them it runs on solar
> >energy
> > > and gravity, which is the indirect energy that runs the five hydro dams
> >we
> > > have here in Great Falls, Montana.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:10 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sensors at drive throughs
> > >
> > >
> > > > So I went back to that same Taco Bueno this morning for breakfast on
> >my
> > > > unicycle. (It's really the only fast food in unicycle range, or the
> > > > range of my current EV, for that matter) This time I looked for the
> >cuts
> > > > in the concrete. They looked like very small versions of the simple
> >(not
> > > > quadrupole) induction loops. By very small I mean about 1'x3', whereas
> >I
> > > > think I read DOT spec was 60' long!
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, according to the article I linked below the small loops should
> > > > be able to detect much smaller conductors. In fact, I'm pretty sure it
> > > > detected my unicycle; I was standing outside the pickup window (not
> >the
> > > > order window...there were loops both places) where I could hear
> >inside,
> > > > and when I rolled the wheel on the pavement cuts I could hear beeping
> > > > inside. Could have just been a coincidence with a fryer going off or
> > > > something, but I did it a few times and I think the guy got annoyed by
> > > > it. Next time for a better test I'll ride up to the order window
> >(where
> > > > they can't see me) and just roll the wheel around instead of pushing
> >the
> > > > button and see if they notice.
> > > >
> > > > Obviously, different restaraunts may have totally different setups.
> >Your
> > > > Whr/mi may vary.
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 05:57 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > > > > Wow. Cool thread.
> > > > >
> > > > > I should note that Taco Bueno had no trouble detecting my EV last
> >night.
> > > > > On the other hand, it wouldn't have mattered much, as in addition to
> > > > > whatever sensor they have there, they also have a pushbutton, which
> > > > > comes in very handy when I'm on the unicycle.
> > > > >
> > > > > I always just figured they had some sort of weight sensor. But then,
> > > > > that's also what I figured the traffic-light loop sensors were,
> >which
> > > > > clearly is wrong, as Morgan's links suggest. A quick search turned
> >up
> > > > > this abstract:
> > > > >
> >http://www.humantransport.org/bicycledriving/library/signals/detection.htm
> > > > > which goes into somewhat more detail, and has specific
> >recommendations
> > > > > for bycicles. Apparently the loops are supposed to be able to detect
> > > > > anything metal of high enough mass.
> > > > >
> > > > > So...they ought to detect an EV. I would be darn surprised if a fast
> > > > > food joint was really expecting their drive-through employees to
> >listen
> > > > > for engine sounds. Almost as surprised as if they were using RF to
> > > > > detect spark plugs going off ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hunter
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 04:24 -0500, Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > > > > > I just found this info; I'm guessing drive-thru sensors are
> >similar to
> > > > > > traffic light sensors:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/loopdet.shtml
> > > > > > http://www.dot.state.sc.us/getting/signals/looptips.shtml
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -Morgan LaMoore
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Climb to the top of the charts! Play Star Shuffle: A word scramble
> challenge with star power.
> http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_hotmailtextlink2_oct
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev



------------------------------

Message: 21
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 18:41:07 -0500
From: Hunter Cook <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain

BTW, everybody, my entry on the austinev albumn got approved. Here it
is: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1359



------------------------------

Message: 22
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ricky Suiter <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 6
To: [email protected]
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

http://www.spectrowireandcable.com/products/mega_lugs_6-2_gauge.php

They have holes drilled, but Spectro wire and Cable
has mega lugs in up to 1 ga with #10 holes, 0ga and up
come in 1/4" hole sizes. I just finished up using some
of these to remake battery cables for a GEM car I
resurrected and they are quite a beefy lug, nice tin
plating as well. I have a bag full of 2/0 size mega
lugs for my Saturn when I get around to finishing it's
re-conversion up.

You might call them and see if they would make you
some without holes drilled if 1/4" holes won't work,
but I would be concerned with this because if you
drilled you'd have exposed copper so you'd kind of
have to get unplated undrilled lugs, drill the holes
as desired then have them plated before crimping them
on and using them.

I've held some BB600's in my hands before and I know
what your concern is with the contact area, but I
would imagine the 1/4" would be about what you need.

Later,
Rick
92 Saturn SC Conversion
AZ Alt Fuel Plates "ZEROGAS"

>Message: 8
>Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:47:18 -0400
>From: "dave cover" <[email protected]>
>Subject: [EVDL] Undrilled lugs
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<<[email protected]>
<Message-ID:
<

>Does anyone know of a source of lugs that have not
>already been
> drilled? I
>have 2/0 cables running from my pack in the back to
my >controller in
> front.
>The pack is BB600s with the small bolts holding the
>cable onto a 1/2"
>diameter contact pad. Most lugs for 2/0 cables
usually >have a hole for
>a 5/16" bolt or larger. I lose a lot of contact area
>between the lug
> and the
>battery pad with this size hole. I'd really like to
>drill my own, but
>haven't found a source yet.
>
>Thanks
>
>Dave Cover
>

------------------------------


____________________________________________________________________________________
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more!
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/3658



------------------------------

Message: 23
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 18:51:41 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hello Hunter,

I had the same problem with wiring diagrams back in 1976 for my EV
controller and battery charger which was made by Cableform in Great Britain.
The drawings are a mix of block diagrams, schematics and wiring diagrams
with terms like valves for the solid state devices and symbols that are not
standard.

All the components were sandwich between two large heat sinks and could not
tell what values they was or how the internal components was connected
together, which only show up as block diagrams.

The components in this proto type EV was assemble in a bread board
installation. It was a test bed of componets, circuits and wirings that was
constantly changing during test runs.

The wiring of the components were not up to my standards, which I was use to
industrial wiring, where components are not connected directly to each
other, but to a industrial terminal strip or power blocks are track mounted
on DIM tracks that also houses terminal blocks for a number 22 to a 4/0 gage
wire. On this type of mounting track, I also have small contactors, plug in
relay sockets, fuse holders with blown fuse indications, and any type of
track mount sensor device.

Using this type of track mounting devices, a wiring modification is simple
to do, by just re-cross connecting between two sets of terminal block
sections.

So after about 10 years of running this EV, I removed every component from
this car, and had everything replace, except for the sheet metal body and
frame and turn it back into a original concurs 1975 Chevy Chevelle which is
still store today.

At that time, I completely broke down the controller to separate components
and made my own schematic which also show all the values and manufacture
numbers on the controller and battery charger.

I was able to get a complete set of replacements and spare components parts
from NTE which has a local distributor here. Back in 1985, a complete spare
parts kit cost $3500.00 from Cableform which was about four times the cost
over the NTE components.

I then transfer the GE 11 motor, controller and battery charger into a
sister car, a 1977 El Camino that had the same body panels from the doors to
the front end as the 1975 Chevelle, so the conversion was simple to make.

The EV ran from 1986 to 2002 which I did the next mod. Replace the
Cableform controller with a Zilla 1k which fit exactly in the same chassis
plate that the existing controller sat on.

Replace the Cableform SCR 50 amp charger with a PFC-50 that also fit in the
fiberglass compartment that is isolated from the body of the EV. Rich Rudman
was worry that this charger in a close compartment would get to hot. Not to
worry, the charger rises out of this compartment on air struts with the air
exhaust pointed up ward, and cool air is pipe in using a filter 6 inch
filter blower.

In the original EV, I did not like having the battery charger, contactors
and electrical arc making devices in the same atmosphere as the the
batteries. So each section is in its own non-conductive isolated
compartments.

To see if your batteries are isolated from the frame while charging, take a
voltage reading from any one battery to the body to see if there is any
voltage leakage. It is normal with any venting type batteries, you will get
a conductive surface even across a plastic surface.

When the voltage leakage build up to about 48 volts, it then time to clean
the batteries, even though they look super clean.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions


> I've now examined things further, and also found some schematics and
> manuals the original owner included that I had missed. I now have a much
> better understanding of what's going on here.
>
> The Signal Transformer MPI-900-40 is doing just what I thought, and the
> BC-20 has a 107k resistor. There was also a 118k resistor in a ziplock,
> for 144v use, as well as the original card full of resistors to set it
> from 48-120.
>
> So my original thought that it has been bootstrapped for 144v seems
> about right. What's more interesting to me is that the schematic that
> shows the charger setup for 132/144v (well, and the rest of them for
> that matter) is on KTA Services letterhead. Dated 12/96. So this
> somewhat out-of-spec BC-20 installation wasn't just the maveric idea of
> the prior owner of this truck...it came to him from some reputable folks
> in the industry who've been around a while and seen some things. That
> makes me feel quite a bit better about the setup.
>
> Anyway, it's probably clear from my last post that I didn't get some of
> what you were saying, Roland. But now from the schematics I see what you
> are talking about with regard to the two 120v inputs going in parallel
> for 120v output or series for 220...it's wired through this little strip
> and hard to see that it's going two places. But definitely for 120v.
> Similarly, now I see what you mean with the output options; there's an
> adjacent diagram of a 114-120v system and the only difference is the
> secondary wiring is parallel.
>
> Of course, this leaves me wondering a bit why I can't get the batteries
> above about 140v. I guess the batteries are just that bad? I'm thinking
> about getting a 6v or 12v charger and just pulling a few off to see if
> they'll take anything under more civilized conditions. After all, I need
> to do some rewiring before I can charge the whole pack again...
>
> Thanks
>
> Hunter
>
>
> On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 14:47 -0500, Hunter Cook wrote:
> > Roland,
> >
> > As always, thanks for all the info. Not sure I grok all of what you're
> > saying, but I think I'm getting most of it. I don't think we're talking
> > about quite the same setup...it looks like in this truck there is only
> > the one transformer doing what you describe a pair doing in the boost
> > circuit. Note that I'm describing the way it came to me wired up (as
> > opposed to something I'm considering wiring up). My assumption is that
> > he did it this way because he wanted the charge to handle a
> > higher-voltage pack. It's just one transformer with a single 120v
> > primary and two 20v secondaries. The 120v from the wall comes into a
> > terminal strip and goes to both the transformer and the BC-20. Then the
> > two primaries are series run to provide 40v to the BC-20 on the boost
> > circuit inputs, which are expecting 20v from the LB-20 boost module.
> >
> > So, in other words, it's getting twice as much from its boost circuit as
> > the designers intended, which I assume means it needs a resistor
> > different from the one for 120v that the manual specs. I'm not sure what
> > it would need to be...all the voltages seem to have resistors about 4-6k
> > apart, except the last one (the jump to 120 with the boost unit) is 11k.
> > I guess given that it's a 12v increase and the rest are 6, that makes
> > sense and the 144v resistor would be about 22k higher, but that's just
> > my simple-arithmetic approach to the problem...not any real electrical
> > theory going on over here. I'll look inside and find out what resistor
> > is actually in there soon.
> >
> > Meanwhile, if any of you Zivan owners has seen the light in that other
> > thread and want to upgrade to one of these fancy Brusa units, let me
> > know ;-)
> >
> > Thanks again Roland.
> >
> > Hunter
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2007-10-02 at 09:53 -0600, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Hello Hunter,
> > >
> > > The series connections in the primaries of several transformers is
> > > corrected
> > > for connecting to a higher input AC voltage, or increasing the out
> > > voltage
> > > on the total sum of the windings which will increase the secondary
> > > voltage.
> > >
> > > For example:
> > >
> > > Lets say you have two transformers that have a 120 volt primary with
> > > leads
> > > mark L1 and L2 and a 120 volt secondary leads mark T1 and T2. This is
> > > normally a 1:1 ratio transformer.
> > >
> > > The normal way to connect to this transformer is to supply 120 vac to
> > > the
> > > primaries to each transformer, which parallels the primary leads L1 to
> > > L1
> > > and L2 to L2.
> > >
> > > The secondary of each transformer will have a output of 120 volts.
> > >
> > > Now is we series the primaries of the transformers by connecting one
> > > leg of
> > > the 240 volt input to L1 and connect L2 of the first transformer to L1
> > > of
> > > the second transformer and the second leg of the 240 volt input to L2
> > > of the
> > > second transformer, you will still get 120 volts out each transformer
> > > secondary.
> > >
> > > If we connect the secondary of each transformer in series like we did
> > > with
> > > the primary, you can also get 240 vac out or can get 120/240 volt out
> > > if you
> > > center tap the secondary series connections that go between the two
> > > connections.
> > >
> > > Another way to connect the 120 vac input power to two transformers
> > > that
> > > primaries are series together, is to connect 120 volts to the first
> > > transformer primary L1 and L2. Connect the first transformer L2 to
> > > the
> > > second transformer L1 and no connection to the second transformer L2.
> > >
> > > You can apply the 120 vac power to the primary of the first
> > > transformer and
> > > using a volt meter, you will read 240 volts between the leads of the
> > > L1 of
> > > the first transformer and the L2 lead with no connection in the
> > > primary of
> > > the second transformer.
> > >
> > > This is what is call a boast circuit or some transformers call a
> > > potential
> > > transformers which have several taps in the primary.
> > >
> > > So the series connections you have for the 108 v battery pack should
> > > increase for a 120 v battery pack.
> > >
> > > Also check to see if you have the correct resistor for the 120 v
> > > battery
> > > pack as listed on page 7 of the manual.
> > >
> > > Tightening all the wire connections and inspecting the wire for crack
> > > insulation and etc, should be ok to fire it up or give it a smoke
> > > test.
> > >
> > > Using Uve's EV calculations, a 120 v battery psck of T-145's should
> > > give you
> > > a range of 66 miles at 10%D0D, or 33 miles at 50%. A pack of T-105's
> > > would
> > > be at about 15 miles 50%D)D at a speed of 60 mph with a vehicle weight
> > > of
> > > 4260 to 4460 lbs.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> > > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:18 AM
> > > Subject: [EVDL] Modified K&W BC-20 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hello again,
> > > >
> > > > Some of you may recall that I've got an old K&W BC-20 charger trying
> > > > to
> > > > charge a 132v (used to be 144v) pack, which should not (and in my
> > > > observation, does not) work very well. Some very knowledgeable folks
> > > > have said it's good only to 108v, or 120 with the LB-20 booster. So
> > > > far
> > > > this has all sounded very reasonable, as in my experience the
> > > > charger
> > > > will only bring the pack up to about 140-145v.
> > > >
> > > > This morning I really got in and looked at the way things were wired
> > > > up
> > > > for the first time. It appears that it is wired with a larger
> > > > transformer in an LB-20-style boosting role.
> > > >
> > > > Specifically, there is a Signal Transformer model MPI-900-40 wired
> > > > up
> > > > exactly the way the BC-20 manual shows an LB-20, except that the MPI
> > > > is
> > > > using 2 20v outputs together in series rather than just the one 20v
> > > > output of the LB-20. Here's the pdf of the manual, which has a good
> > > > diagram of it: http://evdl.org/docs/bc-20.pdf
> > > >
> > > > I also found a loose connection from the plug to the MPI. Complete
> > > > with
> > > > burn marks. Awesome. This may be related to the truck flipping the
> > > > breaker this morning when I plugged it in, which is what prompted me
> > > > to
> > > > take a more serious look at where the wires were going.
> > > >
> > > > So...this brings me to a few questions:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Should this transformer + K&W setup work for a pack of my size?
> > > > It
> > > > seems logical enough I suppose, assuming he also changed out the
> > > > internal resistor (haven't had a chance to check, and not sure what
> > > > the
> > > > value should be as the target voltage is higher than the table goes
> > > > in
> > > > the manual) and assuming the other components in the BC-20 can take
> > > > the
> > > > extra voltage. Since the vehicle is pretty old, I guess they can.
> > > >
> > > > 2. How bad is it that I've got minor burns on my input terminal
> > > > strip
> > > > for the transformer? I tightened up the connection and it works
> > > > again,
> > > > though I didn't try for long.
> > > >
> > > > 3. Is this dangerous?
> > > >
> > > > I'm still in the market for a new charger, no doubt about that. But
> > > > I
> > > > hope I can still keep limping around on this one for a minute. I do
> > > > need
> > > > to move the truck about 6 miles this week (from my old house to my
> > > > new
> > > > one) which believe it or not will probably require a charge in the
> > > > middle. I'm not really equipped to tow it.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again for all the help everybody's been giving me.
> > > >
> > > > Hunter
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > For subscription options, see
> > > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



------------------------------

Message: 24
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:14:47 -0500
From: Tyler <[email protected]>
Subject: [EVDL] Braille batteries
To: EV <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Does anyone have any experience with Braille batteries? 31 Amp hour rating
@ 21 lbs is interesting...

http://www.brailleauto.com/


B3121 No-Weight Extreme Battery Specs
------------------------------

Weight: 21 lbs

Length: 6.6

Width: 5.2

Height: 6.8

Pulse Cranking Amps: 1380

Cranking Amps: 742

Cold Cranking Amps: 550

Amp Hour Rating: 31

Warranty: 1 Year Free Replacement / 2 Year Limited Pro-Rated Extended
Coverage



About Braille Batteries & the B3121 Model Development:

Braille Batteries are used by racers all over the world in the FIA WRC, FIA
Formula Racing, Speed World Challenge Series, SCCA ProRally Series, SCCA
Regional and National Racing, NASA Touring Cars, NIRA, NOPI and Battle of
the Imports Drag Racing Series. Braille Batteries are also designed for
deep-cycle use in premium vehicles with enhanced reliability and
performance. The Spec B3121 is also perfect for daily street use, even in
colder climates. Braille developed the B3121 to excel at competition use and
in situations where the battery is relied on to perform at a higher level
than other batteries. This includes extreme audio systems and insane motors.



The B3121 features an industry leading energy to weight ratio. Enhanced Mat
Technology (more surface area on the lead plates) combined with calcium full
frame power path grids (increase cranking power), yields over 1300 Pulse
Cranking Amps. With a weight of only 21 pounds/9.5kg, the B2015 is 10-30
pounds lighter than a standard battery of equal power. It also has a very
high reserve time of over 1he 15 minutes to ensure the power to start even
after using the vehicles accessories.



Durability was also designed into this battery. Using high density oxide,
Braille was able to offer a battery with true deep-cycling ability over the
life of the battery. Heavy duty vibration resistant power posts resist
cracking and deterioration common to many lightweight batteries used in
harsh automotive environments. The B3121 is a sealed unit that can be
mounted in any position safely using its adjustable automotive terminal
posts. Braille also includes a one-year free replacement limited
warrantythat is not pro-rated. The B3121 also includes pro-rated
coverage over a two
year period.


------------------------------

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End of EV Digest, Vol 3, Issue 7
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