[EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?

6830 Views 11 Replies 1 Participant Last post by EVDL List, Oct 2, 2007

EVDL List

Discussion Starter · Oct 1, 2007

Hi Everybody,

I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and
display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.

At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers
to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display
kWhrs used.

SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My
understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record
the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the
commands.

Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98
computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard
serial port or a USB to serial port?

Thanks

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

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Discussion Starter · #2 · Oct 1, 2007

When doing reverse engineering of a protocol, write down the
order of commands to perform. The protocol may not be ascii text.
Performing the same command over and over a few times will help you
figure it out. When performing them, leave plenty of time between each
if there is a timestamp in order to separate the results. Some
protocols have timeouts for responses, but that may not be important in
your case.
Once you figure out a few, you may want to perform a known
command between unknown commands to help delimit the unknown. You'll
want to run each command under different modes or circumstances to see
if the response lengths are variable.

> Stephen Paschke
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of ProEV
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?

Hi Everybody,

I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller
and
display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.

At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the
controllers
to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to
display
kWhrs used.

SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial
port. My
understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to
record
the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce
the
commands.

Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or
98
computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the
standard
serial port or a USB to serial port?

Thanks

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

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Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 2, 2007

Hey Cliff,

Sure, that's no problem. I've used Portmon ("Port Monitor") quite a bit for
serial port troubleshooting. I just hunted around for it and only found it
on the Microsoft site:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/utilities/portmon.mspx

Previously, I got it directly from Sysinternals, so I don't know what's up
with that. See if you can get the download from the Microsoft site to work.
Otherwise, give me a call and we'll get you set up.

Matt Graham

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of ProEV
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?

Hi Everybody,

I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and

display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.

At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers

to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display

kWhrs used.

SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My

understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record
the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the
commands.

Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98
computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard
serial port or a USB to serial port?

Thanks

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #4 · Oct 2, 2007

Cliff,

Alternatively, you can try EVision - this gadget allows to record
voltage and current (on battery DC side) as well as power during driving
and charging. During driving, it also directly outputs efficiency
Wh/mile, so it would be trivial to figure out charging efficiency
if you want. Output is standard NMEA ASCII strings, which you can
capture with any hyperterminal-like utility. Including kWh used
(time stamped).

Advantage vs. using siadis (other than difficulty DOS presents):
it is drive system and battery independent. See it as e-meter on
steroids.

Disadvantage though, EVision is only battery/vehicle monitor. Unlike
Siadis it knows nothing about motor(s) if that's what you're after.

Looks like second batch of 6 units finally is going out this week...

Victor

ProEV wrote:
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and
> display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
> useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.
>
> At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers
> to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display
> kWhrs used.
>
> SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My
> understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record
> the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the
> commands.
>
> Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
> recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98
> computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard
> serial port or a USB to serial port?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 2, 2007

Matt:
Sysinternals was baughtup by Microsoft.So far all the utilitieswritten by
Sysinternals are freely downloadable...

regards
harsha godavari

Matt Graham wrote:

> Hey Cliff,
>
> Sure, that's no problem. I've used Portmon ("Port Monitor") quite a bit for
> serial port troubleshooting. I just hunted around for it and only found it
> on the Microsoft site:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/utilities/portmon.mspx
>
> Previously, I got it directly from Sysinternals, so I don't know what's up
> with that. See if you can get the download from the Microsoft site to work.
> Otherwise, give me a call and we'll get you set up.
>
> Matt Graham
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 5:45 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and
>
> display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
> useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.
>
> At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers
>
> to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display
>
> kWhrs used.
>
> SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My
>
> understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record
> the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the
> commands.
>
> Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
> recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98
> computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard
> serial port or a USB to serial port?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.36/1041 - Release Date: 10/1/07 10:20 AM

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Discussion Starter · #6 · Oct 2, 2007

Cliff,

I've used Viewcomm (http://www.GreenleafSoft.com), a rather pricey old
serial sniffer. It is good software, and comes with an octopus of serial
cables. The new version runs only on Windows 2000 or later (I have the
older version which runs fine on 98, NT, etc, on thru W2K).

You don't need to host the sniffer on the same computer as the SIADIS,
with Viewcomm. You can cable in the sniffer from an independent 2nd
machine, and that is usually the best method anyway. There used to be
dedicated hardware sniffers, and you could probably find one on CL or
eBay, for a lot less than what the Viewcomm software (and cable set) goes
for.

But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would be
more cost effective (time is money).

That was my challenge, the last time I invoked my copy of Viewcomm-- my
AVS hybrid-electric bus came with a BMS which controls the Capstone
microturbine over the serial link, but the BMS was undocumented, and AVS
(as well as the BMS-subcontracter) were out of business. An hour with the
laptop and I'd captured the conversations with Viewcomm, and knew how the
BMS was starting the turbine.

Have you tried to gain a document on the protocol used?

Good luck.

--- ProEV <[email protected]> wrote:
> <paraphrase>: need a serial sniffer

____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
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Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 2, 2007

Good suggestion.
Has anyone asked Alltrax for their serial protocol?
I'd like to get the controller to send serial data out, but not have to run
their setup app.
Thanks in advance.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jim Davis
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS program?

Cliff,

I've used Viewcomm (http://www.GreenleafSoft.com), a rather pricey old
serial sniffer. It is good software, and comes with an octopus of serial
cables. The new version runs only on Windows 2000 or later (I have the
older version which runs fine on 98, NT, etc, on thru W2K).

You don't need to host the sniffer on the same computer as the SIADIS,
with Viewcomm. You can cable in the sniffer from an independent 2nd
machine, and that is usually the best method anyway. There used to be
dedicated hardware sniffers, and you could probably find one on CL or
eBay, for a lot less than what the Viewcomm software (and cable set) goes
for.

But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would be
more cost effective (time is money).

That was my challenge, the last time I invoked my copy of Viewcomm-- my
AVS hybrid-electric bus came with a BMS which controls the Capstone
microturbine over the serial link, but the BMS was undocumented, and AVS
(as well as the BMS-subcontracter) were out of business. An hour with the
laptop and I'd captured the conversations with Viewcomm, and knew how the
BMS was starting the turbine.

Have you tried to gain a document on the protocol used?

Good luck.

--- ProEV <[email protected]> wrote:
> <paraphrase>: need a serial sniffer

____________________________________________________________________________
________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 2, 2007

On 1 Oct 2007 at 22:05, Myles Twete wrote:

> Has anyone asked Alltrax for their serial protocol?

I asked a few years ago. Their config app ran only under Win2K or XP, and I
was considering writing my own. They politely declined. But who knows? It
might be worth asking again.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 2, 2007

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Discussion Starter · #10 · Oct 2, 2007

Cliff,

A co-worker of mine uses a program called "Serial Monitor Lite" from
HHD Software (http://www.hhdsoftware.com/). It inserts itself into
the Windows driver and gives you access to data in both directions.
It appears to run on newer versions of Windows though. Can you put
SAIDIS on a newer system?

HDD Software also has a USB monitor.

Ralph

ProEV writes:
>
> Hi Everybody,
>
> I would like to use the information coming from a Simovert AC controller and
> display it in a Labview program. The controllers are tracking a lot of
> useful information such as amps, volts, motor temp.
>
> At the moment I need the DOS program, SIADIS, that came with the controllers
> to communicate. It is a little limited in it's ability especially to display
> kWhrs used.
>
> SIADIS communicates with the Simovert controller through the serial port. My
> understanding is that I should use serial port sniffer software to record
> the traffic between the controller and SIADIS and then try and deduce the
> commands.
>
> Anybody have any experience with such a project? Any pointers? Any
> recommendations for a Sniffer program that will work on a Windows 95 or 98
> computer running a DOS program as a DOS window either through the standard
> serial port or a USB to serial port?
>
> Thanks
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 2, 2007

Alltrax has published their serial protocol on their site I believe. I
remember seeing it once.

> Stephen Paschke
> DAR, ERISA, Plan Review, and IPI/ICTMS support,
>TIAA-CREF Denver
> Senior Consultant
> Keane, Inc.
> Office 303-607-2993
> Cell 303-204-9280
[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 11:05 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
program?

Good suggestion.
Has anyone asked Alltrax for their serial protocol?
I'd like to get the controller to send serial data out, but not have to
run
their setup app.
Thanks in advance.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of Jim Davis
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:56 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Using a serial port sniffer to replace SIADIS
program?

Cliff,

I've used Viewcomm (http://www.GreenleafSoft.com), a rather pricey old
serial sniffer. It is good software, and comes with an octopus of serial
cables. The new version runs only on Windows 2000 or later (I have the
older version which runs fine on 98, NT, etc, on thru W2K).

You don't need to host the sniffer on the same computer as the SIADIS,
with Viewcomm. You can cable in the sniffer from an independent 2nd
machine, and that is usually the best method anyway. There used to be
dedicated hardware sniffers, and you could probably find one on CL or
eBay, for a lot less than what the Viewcomm software (and cable set)
goes
for.

But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a
serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made
your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would
be
more cost effective (time is money).

That was my challenge, the last time I invoked my copy of Viewcomm-- my
AVS hybrid-electric bus came with a BMS which controls the Capstone
microturbine over the serial link, but the BMS was undocumented, and AVS
(as well as the BMS-subcontracter) were out of business. An hour with
the
laptop and I'd captured the conversations with Viewcomm, and knew how
the
BMS was starting the turbine.

Have you tried to gain a document on the protocol used?

Good luck.

--- ProEV <[email protected]> wrote:
> <paraphrase>: need a serial sniffer

________________________________________________________________________
____
________
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who
knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

********************************************************************************************
This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information intended
for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
********************************************************************************************

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Discussion Starter · #12 · Oct 2, 2007

Hi Everybody,

Thanks for all the help. I think I will give Portman a try and see where I
get.

Ralph Merwin wrote:

<Can you put SAIDIS on a newer system?

Not easily. It either will not display properly or has com port problems. I
have spent a fair amount of time trying under Windows XP.

Jim Davis wrote:

<But first, I'd suggest tracking down the author of the controller's
firmware, and simply ask them if they have a doc which defines their
protocol, and ask them for a copy. Certainly, reverse engineering a serial
communication protocol is feasible, but unless the company that made your
controller is out of business, or uncooperative, getting the doc would be
more cost effective (time is money).>

Valid point. Since it is a surplused controller model, Siemens does not have
any incentive to putting their time into helping me but there are some
interesting documents on the web that might give me pointers.

Ben wrote:

<I thought we were discussing a Siemens Simovert controller? I found
this snippet in a training manual, after Googling some..

"The MICROMASTER 440 has an RS485 serial interface that
allows communication with computers (PCs) or programmable
logic controllers (PLCs). The standard RS485 protocol is called
USS protocol and is programmable up to 57.6 K baud. Siemens
PROFIBUS protocol is also available. It is programmable up
to 12 M baud. Contact your Siemens sales representative for
information on USS and PROFIBUS protocol."

http://static.scribd.com/docs/d6x4ogqbqwc4.pdf
Pg 56, though it is discussed a few other times.

This doesn't look like the controller you are using (don't know what
you have, but this sounds like a controller for industrial
situations), but if Siemens has a protocol for industrial AC motor
controllers, it stands to reason they'd use something similar for EV
controllers.>

Thanks for the lead. Google also turns up this document for Simovert which
looks interesting http://www.fer.hr/_download/repository/vc33_kompend_e.pdf
I will have to look closely to see if any of this can apply to the Simovert
6SV1.

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

<Alternatively, you can try EVision - this gadget allows to record
voltage and current (on battery DC side) as well as power during driving
and charging.>

I think EVision looks great but not for my application. I really want to
integrate the data from the two inverters including motor info and fault
messages. Predictive "Laps to go" software could use EVision data but I hope
to utilize the amps, volts data already available from the inverters.

Thanks everybody for the help,

Cliff
www.ProEV.com

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