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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Everybody...

The Thomas pump I posted about early this week came in Friday, and
yesterday a couple friends and I installed that and a new brake booster.
Many thanks to Peter VanDerWal for alerting me to the possibility that
the old booster might be gutted...it was. When we first got it hooked up
it wasn't right at all...just sounded like a dying frog (running maybe
200 rpm) and didn't brake worth a darn. Turns out we were not nearly as
clever as we thought, having connected to an unused ignition wire for
the switched 12v, which turned out not to have nearly the current the
pump needed. Now it's plugged into the bus strip where the contactors
go...not really elegant, but sure enough stops on a dime.

I'm expecting a vacuum switch in the mail, at which point I'll add that
and a reservoir to really complete the system. Now I know why everybody
talks so much about quieting these things down...it's way louder than
the rest of the truck. Thinking seriously about that idea of putting the
pump inside the reservoir where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.

Anyway, thanks to everybody for all the great advice on this project. I
feel a lot better about stopping now, which I felt was a real necessity
before I replace the batteries and get this thing going fast.

Hunter

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Discussion Starter #2
I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling. Could it
also pull lubricants past seals? (I have no idea what this pump looks like,
just guessing)

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> Hi Everybody...
>
> The Thomas pump I posted about early this week came in Friday, and
> yesterday a couple friends and I installed that and a new brake booster.
> Many thanks to Peter VanDerWal for alerting me to the possibility that
> the old booster might be gutted...it was. When we first got it hooked up
> it wasn't right at all...just sounded like a dying frog (running maybe
> 200 rpm) and didn't brake worth a darn. Turns out we were not nearly as
> clever as we thought, having connected to an unused ignition wire for
> the switched 12v, which turned out not to have nearly the current the
> pump needed. Now it's plugged into the bus strip where the contactors
> go...not really elegant, but sure enough stops on a dime.
>
> I'm expecting a vacuum switch in the mail, at which point I'll add that
> and a reservoir to really complete the system. Now I know why everybody
> talks so much about quieting these things down...it's way louder than
> the rest of the truck. Thinking seriously about that idea of putting the
> pump inside the reservoir where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
>
> Anyway, thanks to everybody for all the great advice on this project. I
> feel a lot better about stopping now, which I felt was a real necessity
> before I replace the batteries and get this thing going fast.
>
> Hunter
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #3
Hmm...yeah, that's a good point. It's oilless, but the overheating issue
could be a problem. I didn't come up with this plan on my own...can't
recall whether it was someone posting on the list (probably) or just
something I dug up on the web, but somebody at least alledged that they
were doing this. I wonder how (if) they conquered this problem?

I don't think I'll pursue this for quite a while if at all. Having
driven around a bit more I find that the pump is real noticable when I
first turn the car on, or when it's sitting still...but when I get going
the other various sounds sort of fade it into the background. So once I
have a reservoir/switch and the pump doesn't run much while I'm just
sitting around, I expect it'll suit me pretty well.

Thanks for the help.

Hunter

Marty Hewes wrote:
> I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling. Could it
> also pull lubricants past seals? (I have no idea what this pump looks like,
> just guessing)
>
> Marty


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Discussion Starter #4
From: Hunter Cook
>> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
>> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.

The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often disguised as an undersized piece of wire).

>> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
>> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
>> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
>> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.

From: Marty Hewes
> I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling.
> Could it also pull lubricants past seals?

Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum pump's motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, so this has little practical effect on life.


--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #6
From: Bruce Weisenberger
> If you place the pump inside the reservoir, then it is just pumping
> and venting on itself unless creating no vacuum.

You route the exhaust from the vacuum pump outside the reservoir.

> There are rubber shock mounts out there that have threaded bolt on
> both ends for mount high vibration and noise damping.

They help; but not as much as you'd think. The compressor itself is still shaking and vibrating, and just like a loudspeaker, it radiates this noise throught the air.

PS: It also helps to put a good muffler on the exhaust air, just like you'd do for a piston engine.

--
"Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #7
Some vacuum pumps have a relief value that by passes when its up to the
maximum vacuum it is design for and may be popping off if your motor limit
switch is not set below this limit. It may have a check value that clicks
on and off while you are starting up and the vacuum is still below 15 in.hg.

If you are pumping the vacuum to the open air with out a secondary vacuum
check value in the vacuum canister, then the vacuum will not get high enough
to quiet down.

I used several brake booster vacuum check values in the main vacuum line. In
addition to the one that may be inside the vacuum pump, I place one after
the vacuum canister. Some canisters have a place to plug one in. Also one
at the brake booster and if you need a vacuum source for any other devices,
a vacuum check value is also place in the accessory line.

The vacuum pump noise will be the loudest at start up, because there is not
enough vacuum in the lines to keep the vacuum pump check value fully close.
As the vacuum builds up to above 10 in.hg. it is some what less noisy. At 15
in.hg.. I just can barely hear it, and at 22 in.hg., the tires make more
noise rolling over a rough surface road.

A vacuum pump is pumping air out of a enclose container, so you cannot have
that pump inside a canister, other wise you are pumping the air back in.
Some vacuum pumps have a foam muffler that is place on the exhaust. You
could try connecting a rubber hose on the exhaust and attaching a soft foam
rubber that allows air to go through it.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> From: Hunter Cook
> >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
> >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
>
> The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
> disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
>
> >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
> >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
> >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
> >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
>
> From: Marty Hewes
> > I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling.
> > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
>
> Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum pump's
> motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, so
> this has little practical effect on life.
>
>
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #8
Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> The other issue is the volume of gases you are trying to pump have to go
> some where. As with a compress what goes in must come out some where. If you
> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping and venting on itself
> unless creating no vacuum.

I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of the reservoir went
without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of "inside-out" ...there
would be a fitting pointing into the res that the exhaust would attach
to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any fitting on it at all, but
would be free inside the res...the opposite of what it looks like now
with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.

> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
> have threaded bolt on both ends for mount high vibration and noise
> damping. I think my local hardware store ACE stocks them. You may want to
> try them.

I'll probably check that out. Thanks.

>
> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > From: Hunter Cook
> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
> >
> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
> >
> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
> >
> > From: Marty Hewes
> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling.
> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
> >
> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum pump's
> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving, so
> > this has little practical effect on life.
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #9
Anybody tried mounting the pump solidly to something heavy (difficult to
vibrate) that is in turn rubber isolated, like maybe a motor mounting plate?
I suspect if it was solidly mounted to something heavy, it couldn't vibrate
as much, and therefore couldn't give off as much audio.

Marty

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


>
Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>> The other issue is the volume of gases you are trying to pump have to go
>> some where. As with a compress what goes in must come out some where. If
>> you
>> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping and venting on itself
>> unless creating no vacuum.
>
> I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of the reservoir went
> without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of "inside-out" ...there
> would be a fitting pointing into the res that the exhaust would attach
> to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any fitting on it at all, but
> would be free inside the res...the opposite of what it looks like now
> with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.
>
>> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
>> have threaded bolt on both ends for mount high vibration and noise
>> damping. I think my local hardware store ACE stocks them. You may want
>> to
>> try them.
>
> I'll probably check that out. Thanks.
>
>>
>> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: Hunter Cook
>> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
>> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
>> >
>> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
>> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
>> >
>> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
>> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
>> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
>> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
>> >
>> > From: Marty Hewes
>> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling.
>> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
>> >
>> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum
>> > pump's
>> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal driving,
>> > so
>> > this has little practical effect on life.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
>> > --
>> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For subscription options, see
>> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #10
My vacuum pump is in fact mounted on the motor mount.
It is quiet, but not silent. I originally mounted the
Thomas there too, but I attribute the majority of the
decrease in dBs to the change to Gast.
It is mounted on rubber, and the motor mount is
also attached to a rubberized bolt (about the best
description I can give on it).
Hope that helps,

--- Marty Hewes <[email protected]> wrote:

> Anybody tried mounting the pump solidly to something
> heavy (difficult to
> vibrate) that is in turn rubber isolated, like maybe
> a motor mounting plate?
> I suspect if it was solidly mounted to something
> heavy, it couldn't vibrate
> as much, and therefore couldn't give off as much
> audio.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
>
>
> > On Sun, 2007-10-21 at 09:21 -0700, Bruce
> Weisenberger wrote:
> >> The other issue is the volume of gases you are
> trying to pump have to go
> >> some where. As with a compress what goes in must
> come out some where. If
> >> you
> >> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping
> and venting on itself
> >> unless creating no vacuum.
> >
> > I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of
> the reservoir went
> > without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of
> "inside-out" ...there
> > would be a fitting pointing into the res that the
> exhaust would attach
> > to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any
> fitting on it at all, but
> > would be free inside the res...the opposite of
> what it looks like now
> > with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.
> >
> >> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
> >> have threaded bolt on both ends for mount high
> vibration and noise
> >> damping. I think my local hardware store ACE
> stocks them. You may want
> >> to
> >> try them.
> >
> > I'll probably check that out. Thanks.
> >
> >>
> >> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > From: Hunter Cook
> >> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the
> switched 12v, which
> >> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current
> the pump needed.
> >> >
> >> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in
> series with it (often
> >> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
> >> >
> >> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about
> quieting these things
> >> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the
> truck. Thinking
> >> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the
> pump inside the reservoir
> >> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
> >> >
> >> > From: Marty Hewes
> >> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there?
> No air, no cooling.
> >> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
> >> >
> >> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum.
> However, the vacuum
> >> > pump's
> >> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per
> hour in normal driving,
> >> > so
> >> > this has little practical effect on life.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "Excellence does not require perfection." --
> Henry James
> >> > --
> >> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>


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Discussion Starter #11
Hello Marty,

I did not mention how my vacuum pump was mounted in my last E-mail, because
it is a GMC belt drive unit that is mounted on a GMC accessory plate that
not only holds the vacuum pump, vacuum canister, A/C, power steering, a
large alternator on the front of a diesel engine, but I also modified to fit
a electric power steering pump and two electric motors accessory drives and
a electric clutch that all the accessories unit can be driven of the pilot
shaft of the motor to give me some REGEN and performs a back up to the
electric drive.

I had to go look at how many layers this GMC vacuum pump is mounted on.

The pump it self has a 1-1/2 inch thick aluminum mounting base which is bolt
to a 1/4 in. by 6 in.sq alum mounting slide which is mount on a 3/4 in. by 6
in.sq alum mounting plate which is bolted to two each 3 x 3 by 6 inch alum
angle standoffs, which is bolted to a large 1/2 inch thick aluminum
accessories mounting plate that is bolted to eight donuts type engine mounts
to two 1/4 in thick 4 x 4 inch square tubing that is then bolted to the
frame.

The pulley drive systems duplicate the belted pulley drive on a engine with
the different sizes of pulleys that are require for the correct rpm of each
item.

Roland






----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Hewes" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> Anybody tried mounting the pump solidly to something heavy (difficult to
> vibrate) that is in turn rubber isolated, like maybe a motor mounting
> plate?
> I suspect if it was solidly mounted to something heavy, it couldn't
> vibrate
> as much, and therefore couldn't give off as much audio.
>
> Marty
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hunter Cook" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
>
>
> >
Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> >> The other issue is the volume of gases you are trying to pump have to
> >> go
> >> some where. As with a compress what goes in must come out some where.
> >> If
> >> you
> >> place it in the reservoir then it is just pumping and venting on itself
> >> unless creating no vacuum.
> >
> > I sort of assumed that porting the exhaust out of the reservoir went
> > without saying ;-) It ends up looking sort of "inside-out" ...there
> > would be a fitting pointing into the res that the exhaust would attach
> > to, and the vacuum output wouldn't have any fitting on it at all, but
> > would be free inside the res...the opposite of what it looks like now
> > with the exhaust free and a hose on the vac side.
> >
> >> There are rubber shock mounts out there that
> >> have threaded bolt on both ends for mount high vibration and noise
> >> damping. I think my local hardware store ACE stocks them. You may
> >> want
> >> to
> >> try them.
> >
> > I'll probably check that out. Thanks.
> >
> >>
> >> On 10/21/07, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > From: Hunter Cook
> >> > >> connected to an unused ignition wire for the switched 12v, which
> >> > >> turned out not to have nearly the current the pump needed.
> >> >
> >> > The wire to the ignition coil has a resistor in series with it (often
> >> > disguised as an undersized piece of wire).
> >> >
> >> > >> Now I know why everybody talks so much about quieting these things
> >> > >> down... it's way louder than the rest of the truck. Thinking
> >> > >> seriously about that idea of putting the pump inside the reservoir
> >> > >> where the vacuum will inhibit the sound.
> >> >
> >> > From: Marty Hewes
> >> > > I suspect the pump might overheat in there? No air, no cooling.
> >> > > Could it also pull lubricants past seals?
> >> >
> >> > Cooling and brush life are worse in a vacuum. However, the vacuum
> >> > pump's
> >> > motor shouldn't run more than a few minutes per hour in normal
> >> > driving,
> >> > so
> >> > this has little practical effect on life.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> >> > --
> >> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> >> > leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > For subscription options, see
> >> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #12
I have a " Made for Electric vehicle" vacuum pump.* It is the noisiest
part of the whole vehicle and bothers me. The reason it is so noisy is
obvious, it is a single lung(diaphragm or piston) pump. As long as this
is the norm we will suffer with the noise. I found out that racers use a
modified ford smog pump to create vacuum. These are vane pumps and have
a smoother profile. I have wanted to try this or a flying ball pump.

Two other ideas come to mind. each assume we don't have vacuum, so why
make it?

1) Use air pressure. This I ran a test on and was impressed with the
result. (1 how a vacuum booster works) I made an adapter to push air in
with a hose on the vents
in back and placed it on a regulator at 15psi (gauge) and removed the
hose from the booster. This made the vacuum side at atmosphere and the
vent side at atmosphere+15. Thus the same pressure differential as
usual. My thought was because I can store 10 times as much pressurized
air that a tank filled one a week would work quietly. Now the on-board
solution would be to have a 150psi tank you refill and a small air
compressor that comes on if that tank gets below 50psi. I never tested
this usage case to see how long a 150psi tank regulated down to 15psi
would last.

2) An electromagnetic brake booster. stepper like motor on little rack
driven by a small controller


*I was entertaining selling them in the US and the company wouldn't give
me a price until they sent me a sample, 6 months later I still didn't
have a price. When I did get a price I laughed and moved on >$500 my cost.







1) The chamber is split into two halves with a diaphragm. The rod from
the pedal has two valves on it. When not pressing on the pedal, the rod
moves back under light spring pressure opens the valve between the two
halves and closes the one to the atmosphere in back. Both sides of the
diaphragm have vacuum on it so the net assistance is zero. When you push
on the pedal the valve between the two chambers closes and the one in
back opens to the atmosphere. 14.7psi of atmosphere spills in the back
valve and pushes on the diaphragm assisting you. As the rod catches up
with your foot, the valve in back closes and the valve between the two
halves opens and things begin to equalize. This is how it follows what
your foot tells it to do.

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Discussion Starter #14
there is also the hydra boost option that runs off of the hydraulic pump fo=
r the power steering, so assuming your vehicle is using hydraulic power ste=
ering anyway it saves you the vacuum pump

> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:30:13 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
> =

> I have a " Made for Electric vehicle" vacuum pump.* It is the noisiest
> part of the whole vehicle and bothers me. The reason it is so noisy is
> obvious, it is a single lung(diaphragm or piston) pump. As long as this
> is the norm we will suffer with the noise. I found out that racers use a
> modified ford smog pump to create vacuum. These are vane pumps and have
> a smoother profile. I have wanted to try this or a flying ball pump.
> =

> Two other ideas come to mind. each assume we don't have vacuum, so why
> make it?
> =

> 1) Use air pressure. This I ran a test on and was impressed with the
> result. (1 how a vacuum booster works) I made an adapter to push air in
> with a hose on the vents
> in back and placed it on a regulator at 15psi (gauge) and removed the
> hose from the booster. This made the vacuum side at atmosphere and the
> vent side at atmosphere+15. Thus the same pressure differential as
> usual. My thought was because I can store 10 times as much pressurized
> air that a tank filled one a week would work quietly. Now the on-board
> solution would be to have a 150psi tank you refill and a small air
> compressor that comes on if that tank gets below 50psi. I never tested
> this usage case to see how long a 150psi tank regulated down to 15psi
> would last.
> =

> 2) An electromagnetic brake booster. stepper like motor on little rack
> driven by a small controller
> =

> =

> *I was entertaining selling them in the US and the company wouldn't give
> me a price until they sent me a sample, 6 months later I still didn't
> have a price. When I did get a price I laughed and moved on >$500 my cost.
> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> 1) The chamber is split into two halves with a diaphragm. The rod from
> the pedal has two valves on it. When not pressing on the pedal, the rod
> moves back under light spring pressure opens the valve between the two
> halves and closes the one to the atmosphere in back. Both sides of the
> diaphragm have vacuum on it so the net assistance is zero. When you push
> on the pedal the valve between the two chambers closes and the one in
> back opens to the atmosphere. 14.7psi of atmosphere spills in the back
> valve and pushes on the diaphragm assisting you. As the rod catches up
> with your foot, the valve in back closes and the valve between the two
> halves opens and things begin to equalize. This is how it follows what
> your foot tells it to do.
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Robert,

can you explain this a bit more? Have you tried it?

Thanks,
Osmo


robert harder kirjoitti 22.10.2007 kello 7.02:

>
> there is also the hydra boost option that runs off of the hydraulic
> pump for the power steering, so assuming your vehicle is using
> hydraulic power steering anyway it saves you the vacuum pump
>
>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:30:13 -0700
>> From: [email protected]
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
>>
>> I have a " Made for Electric vehicle" vacuum pump.* It is the
>> noisiest
>> part of the whole vehicle and bothers me. The reason it is so
>> noisy is
>> obvious, it is a single lung(diaphragm or piston) pump. As long as
>> this
>> is the norm we will suffer with the noise. I found out that racers
>> use a
>> modified ford smog pump to create vacuum. These are vane pumps and
>> have
>> a smoother profile. I have wanted to try this or a flying ball pump.
>>
>> Two other ideas come to mind. each assume we don't have vacuum, so
>> why
>> make it?
>>
>> 1) Use air pressure. This I ran a test on and was impressed with the
>> result. (1 how a vacuum booster works) I made an adapter to push
>> air in
>> with a hose on the vents
>> in back and placed it on a regulator at 15psi (gauge) and removed the
>> hose from the booster. This made the vacuum side at atmosphere and
>> the
>> vent side at atmosphere+15. Thus the same pressure differential as
>> usual. My thought was because I can store 10 times as much
>> pressurized
>> air that a tank filled one a week would work quietly. Now the on-
>> board
>> solution would be to have a 150psi tank you refill and a small air
>> compressor that comes on if that tank gets below 50psi. I never
>> tested
>> this usage case to see how long a 150psi tank regulated down to 15psi
>> would last.
>>
>> 2) An electromagnetic brake booster. stepper like motor on little
>> rack
>> driven by a small controller
>>
>>
>> *I was entertaining selling them in the US and the company
>> wouldn't give
>> me a price until they sent me a sample, 6 months later I still didn't
>> have a price. When I did get a price I laughed and moved on >$500
>> my cost.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 1) The chamber is split into two halves with a diaphragm. The rod
>> from
>> the pedal has two valves on it. When not pressing on the pedal,
>> the rod
>> moves back under light spring pressure opens the valve between the
>> two
>> halves and closes the one to the atmosphere in back. Both sides of
>> the
>> diaphragm have vacuum on it so the net assistance is zero. When
>> you push
>> on the pedal the valve between the two chambers closes and the one in
>> back opens to the atmosphere. 14.7psi of atmosphere spills in the
>> back
>> valve and pushes on the diaphragm assisting you. As the rod
>> catches up
>> with your foot, the valve in back closes and the valve between the
>> two
>> halves opens and things begin to equalize. This is how it follows
>> what
>> your foot tells it to do.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live
> OneCare!
> http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?
> s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I have an Electric GMC van that was a factory conversion from a Canadian
company, and that's how they do it. The problem is the electric motor
driving the hyrdaulic pump is more noisy than the vacuum pump, and runs
continuously. It actually still has a vacuum pump in there too, so that the
climate controls still work correctly (all vacuum actuated).

I'm toying with the idea of switching to a vacuum-boosted brake system so
that I can switch off or at least slow down the hydraulic pump to save on
power and noise. It annoys me that this thing runs all the time, even when
stopped, but because it runs the brake booster, I don't have a choice!

I don't recommend anyone intentionally add hydraulic boosted (from power
steering) brakes to their EV.

However, many cars that have ABS use a 12v hydraulic pump and accumulator
and also derive boost pressure this way. I know most of the older ATE
braking systems are of this type. Maybe one could be easily retrofitted?
(skip the ABS but use the boost)

Maybe a trip to a pick-n-pull would yeild a hydraulic booster of this type
pretty easily.

-Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo S." <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!


> Robert,
>
> can you explain this a bit more? Have you tried it?
>
> Thanks,
> Osmo
>
>
> robert harder kirjoitti 22.10.2007 kello 7.02:
>
>>
>> there is also the hydra boost option that runs off of the hydraulic
>> pump for the power steering, so assuming your vehicle is using
>> hydraulic power steering anyway it saves you the vacuum pump
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:30:13 -0700
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
>>>
>>> I have a " Made for Electric vehicle" vacuum pump.* It is the
>>> noisiest
>>> part of the whole vehicle and bothers me. The reason it is so
>>> noisy is
>>> obvious, it is a single lung(diaphragm or piston) pump. As long as
>>> this
>>> is the norm we will suffer with the noise. I found out that racers
>>> use a
>>> modified ford smog pump to create vacuum. These are vane pumps and
>>> have
>>> a smoother profile. I have wanted to try this or a flying ball pump.
>>>
>>> Two other ideas come to mind. each assume we don't have vacuum, so
>>> why
>>> make it?
>>>
>>> 1) Use air pressure. This I ran a test on and was impressed with the
>>> result. (1 how a vacuum booster works) I made an adapter to push
>>> air in
>>> with a hose on the vents
>>> in back and placed it on a regulator at 15psi (gauge) and removed the
>>> hose from the booster. This made the vacuum side at atmosphere and
>>> the
>>> vent side at atmosphere+15. Thus the same pressure differential as
>>> usual. My thought was because I can store 10 times as much
>>> pressurized
>>> air that a tank filled one a week would work quietly. Now the on-
>>> board
>>> solution would be to have a 150psi tank you refill and a small air
>>> compressor that comes on if that tank gets below 50psi. I never
>>> tested
>>> this usage case to see how long a 150psi tank regulated down to 15psi
>>> would last.
>>>
>>> 2) An electromagnetic brake booster. stepper like motor on little
>>> rack
>>> driven by a small controller
>>>
>>>
>>> *I was entertaining selling them in the US and the company
>>> wouldn't give
>>> me a price until they sent me a sample, 6 months later I still didn't
>>> have a price. When I did get a price I laughed and moved on >$500
>>> my cost.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1) The chamber is split into two halves with a diaphragm. The rod
>>> from
>>> the pedal has two valves on it. When not pressing on the pedal,
>>> the rod
>>> moves back under light spring pressure opens the valve between the
>>> two
>>> halves and closes the one to the atmosphere in back. Both sides of
>>> the
>>> diaphragm have vacuum on it so the net assistance is zero. When
>>> you push
>>> on the pedal the valve between the two chambers closes and the one in
>>> back opens to the atmosphere. 14.7psi of atmosphere spills in the
>>> back
>>> valve and pushes on the diaphragm assisting you. As the rod
>>> catches up
>>> with your foot, the valve in back closes and the valve between the
>>> two
>>> halves opens and things begin to equalize. This is how it follows
>>> what
>>> your foot tells it to do.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For subscription options, see
>>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live
>> OneCare!
>> http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?
>> s_cid=wl_hotmailnews
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Hydra-boost systems come on a variety of trucks, vans, large cars, turbo-ch=
arged and diesel applications. they are use from the manufacturer's when th=
ere is limited vacuum (small motor in large vehicle, turbo, diesel) or when=
there is a space constraint (astro vans, late model mustangs) it taps off =
of the hydraulic lines for the steering and uses that pressure to assist th=
e pedal, it uses only a small volume of the fluid and there is an accumulat=
or built into the system that will give you at least to brake applications =
so you should be fine if you are driving the pump of off the drive motor an=
d giving up power assist when stopped, the systems are a bit hard to find b=
ut provide very strong braking,
as for have I tried it...only in stock applications as much as I'd like to =
build an ev I am a bit uncomfortable with my electronic abilities
the systems can be hard to find but all astro vans and all one ton chevy tr=
ucks back into the early 70's are equipped with them (modern trucks no long=
er share the ps pump they are run off of an electric pump that supplies onl=
y the brakes) large station wagons of both ford and gm origin came with the=
m and like I said above modern mustangs, =


> From: [email protected]
> Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:16:05 +0300
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
> =

> Robert,
> =

> can you explain this a bit more? Have you tried it?
> =

> Thanks,
> Osmo
> =

> =

> robert harder kirjoitti 22.10.2007 kello 7.02:
> =

> >
> > there is also the hydra boost option that runs off of the hydraulic =

> > pump for the power steering, so assuming your vehicle is using =

> > hydraulic power steering anyway it saves you the vacuum pump
> >
> >> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:30:13 -0700
> >> From: [email protected]
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Vacuum pump success!
> >>
> >> I have a " Made for Electric vehicle" vacuum pump.* It is the =

> >> noisiest
> >> part of the whole vehicle and bothers me. The reason it is so =

> >> noisy is
> >> obvious, it is a single lung(diaphragm or piston) pump. As long as =

> >> this
> >> is the norm we will suffer with the noise. I found out that racers =

> >> use a
> >> modified ford smog pump to create vacuum. These are vane pumps and =

> >> have
> >> a smoother profile. I have wanted to try this or a flying ball pump.
> >>
> >> Two other ideas come to mind. each assume we don't have vacuum, so =

> >> why
> >> make it?
> >>
> >> 1) Use air pressure. This I ran a test on and was impressed with the
> >> result. (1 how a vacuum booster works) I made an adapter to push =

> >> air in
> >> with a hose on the vents
> >> in back and placed it on a regulator at 15psi (gauge) and removed the
> >> hose from the booster. This made the vacuum side at atmosphere and =

> >> the
> >> vent side at atmosphere+15. Thus the same pressure differential as
> >> usual. My thought was because I can store 10 times as much =

> >> pressurized
> >> air that a tank filled one a week would work quietly. Now the on- =

> >> board
> >> solution would be to have a 150psi tank you refill and a small air
> >> compressor that comes on if that tank gets below 50psi. I never =

> >> tested
> >> this usage case to see how long a 150psi tank regulated down to 15psi
> >> would last.
> >>
> >> 2) An electromagnetic brake booster. stepper like motor on little =

> >> rack
> >> driven by a small controller
> >>
> >>
> >> *I was entertaining selling them in the US and the company =

> >> wouldn't give
> >> me a price until they sent me a sample, 6 months later I still didn't
> >> have a price. When I did get a price I laughed and moved on >$500 =

> >> my cost.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1) The chamber is split into two halves with a diaphragm. The rod =

> >> from
> >> the pedal has two valves on it. When not pressing on the pedal, =

> >> the rod
> >> moves back under light spring pressure opens the valve between the =

> >> two
> >> halves and closes the one to the atmosphere in back. Both sides of =

> >> the
> >> diaphragm have vacuum on it so the net assistance is zero. When =

> >> you push
> >> on the pedal the valve between the two chambers closes and the one in
> >> back opens to the atmosphere. 14.7psi of atmosphere spills in the =

> >> back
> >> valve and pushes on the diaphragm assisting you. As the rod =

> >> catches up
> >> with your foot, the valve in back closes and the valve between the =

> >> two
> >> halves opens and things begin to equalize. This is how it follows =

> >> what
> >> your foot tells it to do.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For subscription options, see
> >> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live =

> > OneCare!
> > http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx? =

> > s_cid=3Dwl_hotmailnews
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_________________________________________________________________
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