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Discussion Starter #1
lets look at a car that drives 10000 miles a year. the prius which accounts
for I suggest 2 percent of cars on the road, i could be grossly wrong
however. lets take the typical car that get 25 miles per gallon. they buy
400 gallons per year. they pay 150 dollars a year. drive 8000 miles. 120
per year.

the prius pays 75 dollars in tax at 10,000 miles, 12 dollars in sales tax.
$87.00

so can an EV drive 10000 miles a year? sure it can. thats 28 miles per day.

If I had an EV I would drive it everyday all day ;) but surely 28 miles per
day average. I drive my gas car more than that.

there has to be a way to pay road tax. Our roads are falling apart.

also consider if your EV is 4000 to 5000 pounds your heavy EV is wearing the
road a bit more.

I just think its fair. Would you rather they put in GPS and taxed you that
way? Thats the way Oregon wants to do for all cars.

they got the law passed for trucks to have a gps in them but got defeated in
court but they are slowly working it back into every cab of every truck.

I think its a happy compromise, but of course I would want to see a set
number of years the tax could not be increased.
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Discussion Starter #2
My issue with the flat fee (tax), is that it penalizes those who have
invested in multiple EV's, such as myself. I own 8 EV's. I drive less than
6,000 miles per year total among them. My roadster has 750 miles total on
the odometer from 1995 til now. What is being suggested is that I pay $800
per year to drive less than 6,000 miles. Perhaps if I sold 6 of them and
only drove my favorite 2, it might be a bit more palatable, but as a
supporter of the EV movement from the mid 1990's, I just have a hard time
believing that this is the best approach.
Bear in mind that there are less than 1,000 registered electric vehicles in
Washington State at this time, and that the state just spent several
thousand dollars on a campaign to attract the Nissan Leaf to our region.
THIS BILL SEEKS TO RAISE $100,000! Is this amount worth the negative nation
attention? How long does $100,000 last in the DOT budget? Take a look at the
signs at any highway project that proclaim the the amount being spent on the
lane widening, our sidewalk improvement. I have never seen one that listed
an amount less than $500,000, have you?
My point is, is this fee worth enacting if it only raises one day's worth of
spending, considering the nationwide ridicule & political fallout? I doubt
it!

Tom True
Co-Founder of EV Parts, Inc

Michael Clark <[email protected]>wrote:

> lets look at a car that drives 10000 miles a year. the prius which accounts
> for I suggest 2 percent of cars on the road, i could be grossly wrong
> however. lets take the typical car that get 25 miles per gallon. they buy
> 400 gallons per year. they pay 150 dollars a year. drive 8000 miles. 120
> per year.
>
> the prius pays 75 dollars in tax at 10,000 miles, 12 dollars in sales tax.
> $87.00
>
> so can an EV drive 10000 miles a year? sure it can. thats 28 miles per day.
>
> If I had an EV I would drive it everyday all day ;) but surely 28 miles per
> day average. I drive my gas car more than that.
>
> there has to be a way to pay road tax. Our roads are falling apart.
>
> also consider if your EV is 4000 to 5000 pounds your heavy EV is wearing
> the
> road a bit more.
>
> I just think its fair. Would you rather they put in GPS and taxed you
> that
> way? Thats the way Oregon wants to do for all cars.
>
> they got the law passed for trucks to have a gps in them but got defeated
> in
> court but they are slowly working it back into every cab of every truck.
>
> I think its a happy compromise, but of course I would want to see a set
> number of years the tax could not be increased.
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merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Discussion Starter #3
Sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you on several accounts :

1. it's unlikely that, for the next several years, most EV drivers will
attain 10K miles/yr. That would include a number of road trips, trips
fishing, skiing, etc., that exceed 100 mile range. Pick a smaller number.

2. Leave the sales tax out of this issue. As far as I know, the $100 tax
proposal is exclusively to replace the road portion of the gas tax.

3. 25m/g is a current technology. A prius may be on the upper end, but
we're moving to higher effeciency vehicles, even if they are still ICE
based. We need to compare to a target number where we'll be a few years
from now when the number of EVs will be (hopefully) significant. A number
of 40 or 50m/g seems reasonable to me.

Therefore, I conclude, that $100 is roughly double what is fair.

I respect the privacy issues of a GPS. I would think open-source software
that simply records the miles travelled would be one way to use a GPS for
mileage tracking. Not sure how that would be administered, but some sort of
audit with the GPS logger manufacture could be possible. Auto manufactures
or retrofitters could then buy from these trusted sources.

Peri


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Michael Clark
Sent: 24 February, 2011 3:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [EVDL] washington state EV tax

lets look at a car that drives 10000 miles a year. the prius which accounts
for I suggest 2 percent of cars on the road, i could be grossly wrong
however. lets take the typical car that get 25 miles per gallon. they buy
400 gallons per year. they pay 150 dollars a year. drive 8000 miles. 120
per year.

the prius pays 75 dollars in tax at 10,000 miles, 12 dollars in sales tax.
$87.00

so can an EV drive 10000 miles a year? sure it can. thats 28 miles per day.

If I had an EV I would drive it everyday all day ;) but surely 28 miles per
day average. I drive my gas car more than that.

there has to be a way to pay road tax. Our roads are falling apart.

also consider if your EV is 4000 to 5000 pounds your heavy EV is wearing the
road a bit more.

I just think its fair. Would you rather they put in GPS and taxed you that
way? Thats the way Oregon wants to do for all cars.

they got the law passed for trucks to have a gps in them but got defeated in
court but they are slowly working it back into every cab of every truck.

I think its a happy compromise, but of course I would want to see a set
number of years the tax could not be increased.
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Discussion Starter #4
GPS is way overkill for this. Why not just plug into the OBDII stream, or
intercept the speedo pulses, or put a magnet on a driveshaft or axle.




________________________________
From: Peri Hartman <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 4:36:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] washington state EV tax

... I respect the privacy issues of a GPS. I would think open-source software
that simply records the miles travelled would be one way to use a GPS for
mileage tracking. Not sure how that would be administered, but some sort of
audit with the GPS logger manufacture could be possible. Auto manufactures or
retrofitters could then buy from these trusted sources.



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Discussion Starter #5
There is one very salient point that you have (nearly) all missed regarding=
the =

flat fee. This is a state tax for state highwaypurposes. State routes=
here are =

all 40+ mile per hour roads.

Local streets are paid for by local property taxes. NEV's are limited in=
our =

state to 35 MPH max. NEV's can therefore only use the local streets. =
The state =

should not even be taxing them as vehicles as they do not use the state roa=
ds. =

Makes as much sense as putting an airport runway tax on baby carriages.

Roger

GPS is way overkill for this. Why not just plug into the OBDII stream, or =

intercept the speedo pulses, or put a magnet on a driveshaft or axle.




________________________________
From: Peri Hartman <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 4:36:50 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] washington state EV tax

... I respect the privacy issues of a GPS. I would think open-source sof=
tware =

that simply records the miles travelled would be one way to use a GPS for =

mileage tracking. Not sure how that would be administered, but some sort=
of =

audit with the GPS logger manufacture could be possible. Auto manufactur=
es or =

retrofitters could then buy from these trusted sources.


=

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chment.html
=

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________________________________

From: David Dymaxion <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Thu, February 24, 2011 4:15:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] washington state EV tax



=

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Discussion Starter #6
Probably because someone will think that they are missing out on taxes
from "visiting" EV drivers since they won't know when a state line is
crossed. They forget that ICE vehicles do this all the time. For
example, when I bought my Gizmo I drove from Kelso, WA to Eugene, OR
and didn't fuel up in Oregon.

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, David Dymaxion
<[email protected]> wrote:
> GPS is way overkill for this. Why not just plug into the OBDII stream, or
> intercept the speedo pulses, or put a magnet on a driveshaft or axle.


--
David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter #7
Michael Clark wrote:

> so can an EV drive 10000 miles a year? sure it can. thats 28 miles per day.
>
> If I had an EV I would drive it everyday all day ;) but surely 28 miles per
> day average. I drive my gas car more than that.

So, you don't have an EV and you put zero annual miles on an EV? I
guess you have some unstated expertise that leads you to believe that
10k miles per year is feasible and likely for a conversion? From my
readings and own experience, I believe VERY few EV drivers achieve 10K
miles/year. There is a vast distance between "can" and "do". I too
would consider a $100 flat tax "fair" if EVs had the same annual
distance traveled capability as a petroleum fueled vehicle. They do
not and I consider the tax un-fair.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 165 days 17 hours 38 minutes

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Discussion Starter #8
Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

>> so can an EV drive 10000 miles a year? sure it can. thats 28 miles per day.
>>
>> If I had an EV I would drive it everyday all day ;) but surely 28 miles per
>> day average. I drive my gas car more than that.
>
> So, you don't have an EV and you put zero annual miles on an EV? I
> guess you have some unstated expertise that leads you to believe that
> 10k miles per year is feasible and likely for a conversion? From my
> readings and own experience, I believe VERY few EV drivers achieve 10K
> miles/year. There is a vast distance between "can" and "do". I too
> would consider a $100 flat tax "fair" if EVs had the same annual
> distance traveled capability as a petroleum fueled vehicle. They do
> not and I consider the tax un-fair.

Just to add some perspective. Here in the Northeast we have a lot of toll roads. I would love to pay only $100/year towards road maintenance. Last year I spent $524 just in tolls. That's not even considering the $0.446/ gal gas tax which cost me about $800 last year. Yes, I drive a lot on business.

$100/year not fair? Stop whining!

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Discussion Starter #9
I live in Missouri and we have had a $75 per year fuel tax on EVs (and
on any other non-taxed fuel vehicle) for many years. I do think it is
unreasonably high, because my EVs have never racked up sufficient miles
to equal $75 in gasoline taxes. My question is, if the state of
Washington thinks $100 is the right amount to charge for an EV no matter
how many miles per year it is driven, then why not drop the per gallon
fuel taxes completely and simply change all vehicles $100 per year?

--
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
http://evalbum.com/106
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://evtinker.com
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.evdl.org

In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)

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Discussion Starter #10
Roger Heuckeroth wrote:

> Just to add some perspective. Here in the Northeast we have a lot of toll roads. I would love to pay only $100/year towards road maintenance. Last year I spent $524 just in tolls. That's not even considering the $0.446/ gal gas tax which cost me about $800 last year. Yes, I drive a lot on business.

Forgive me, I fail to see your logic. You drive a lot of petroleum
fueled miles and you pay taxes on those miles. And you say that
justifies higher taxes on EV miles than on petroleum miles? Are you
the 3/4T pickup conversion guy? Are you piling on the miles?
10K/year? Evalbum failed to return anything on a "heuckeroth" search.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 166 days 4 hours 01 minutes

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Discussion Starter #11
Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 09:42:41PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>> Just to add some perspective. Here in the Northeast we have a lot of toll roads. I would love to pay only $100/year towards road maintenance. Last year I spent $524 just in tolls. That's not even considering the $0.446/ gal gas tax which cost me about $800 last year. Yes, I drive a lot on business.
>
> Forgive me, I fail to see your logic. You drive a lot of petroleum
> fueled miles and you pay taxes on those miles. And you say that
> justifies higher taxes on EV miles than on petroleum miles? Are you
> the 3/4T pickup conversion guy? Are you piling on the miles?
> 10K/year? Evalbum failed to return anything on a "heuckeroth" search.
>


My logic is simply that $100 is not a lot of money. All this talk about "fairness" is driving me crazy. It's just a hundred bucks and it's a flat tax. I way prefer a flat tax on EVs rather than some metering of electricity or miles driven.

Yes, my conversion is not yet on the EVDL Album. It will be when it's completely finished. And no it's not a 3/4 ton pick up. It's an Audi A4 that needs about 20 hours, and not to be buried in 2 feet of snow to be completed.

Our other vehicles are a Jetta TDI and a Toyota pickup, Combined we put on 44K miles last year. About 2/3 of that was business travel. Spent nearly $6000 on fuel.

We all want nice roads to drive on. Someone has got to pay for them. Funny thing about taxes is everyone thinks they are paying more than their share, or someone else is not paying their fair share. Meanwhile our governments are racking up record deficits.

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Discussion Starter #12
You're right. $100 isn't a lot of money - at least for those early EV
adopters. The point is, this is setting up a precedent and precedents are
important to get right - expanding eventually beyond EVs. Do you really
think this is the right solution to have in place 5-10 years from now?

Peri

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: 25 February, 2011 4:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] washington state EV tax



Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 09:42:41PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>> Just to add some perspective. Here in the Northeast we have a lot of toll
roads. I would love to pay only $100/year towards road maintenance. Last
year I spent $524 just in tolls. That's not even considering the $0.446/ gal
gas tax which cost me about $800 last year. Yes, I drive a lot on business.
>
> Forgive me, I fail to see your logic. You drive a lot of petroleum
> fueled miles and you pay taxes on those miles. And you say that
> justifies higher taxes on EV miles than on petroleum miles? Are you
> the 3/4T pickup conversion guy? Are you piling on the miles?
> 10K/year? Evalbum failed to return anything on a "heuckeroth" search.
>


My logic is simply that $100 is not a lot of money. All this talk about
"fairness" is driving me crazy. It's just a hundred bucks and it's a flat
tax. I way prefer a flat tax on EVs rather than some metering of
electricity or miles driven.

Yes, my conversion is not yet on the EVDL Album. It will be when it's
completely finished. And no it's not a 3/4 ton pick up. It's an Audi A4
that needs about 20 hours, and not to be buried in 2 feet of snow to be
completed.

Our other vehicles are a Jetta TDI and a Toyota pickup, Combined we put on
44K miles last year. About 2/3 of that was business travel. Spent nearly
$6000 on fuel.

We all want nice roads to drive on. Someone has got to pay for them. Funny
thing about taxes is everyone thinks they are paying more than their share,
or someone else is not paying their fair share. Meanwhile our governments
are racking up record deficits.

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Discussion Starter #13
Peri Hartman wrote:

> You're right. $100 isn't a lot of money - at least for those early EV
> adopters. The point is, this is setting up a precedent and
> precedents are
> important to get right - expanding eventually beyond EVs. Do you
> really
> think this is the right solution to have in place 5-10 years from
> now?

I guess that is up to each state's legislature. One way or another
the they need to collect funds to pay for road maintenance and
expansion.

In my opinion the simplicity of a flat tax on EVs is an acceptable way
of collecting these funds. What would be the perceived problem with
this 5-10 years down the road?

As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, the majority of the
road wear is due to commercial truck traffic. These large vehicles
are less likely to go electric, so they will pay the majority of the
funds anyway. And it all comes back to the consumer when you pay more
for your goods at the market.

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Discussion Starter #14
An option: If you have an EV conversion that is a car built 25yrs ago or
more, register it as an Antique vehicle. In many (most?) states, antique
vehicle plates and registration are a one-time cost without annual or
biannual renewals. I would guess that any EV registered as an antique
vehicle and with those plates would be exempt from any annual EV road tax.
To receive antique registration and plates you certify that you don't drive
the car for anything other than parades, shows, club events, etc. It's
pretty loose. I think similar rules apply for Specialty plates---those
plates would probably fit well for folks who have drag bikes, drag cars,
etc.

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Discussion Starter #15
Myles,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but that's not much of an option for those
of us who did a conversion for the express purpose of creating a commuter
vehicle to reduce our carbon footprint (my motivation). My EV is
transportation; it's not for show.

It might work for the person who eariler said they had 8 vehicles which they
only use a little bit each (depending on age of the vehicles of course).

- Peter Flipsen Jr

Myles Twete <[email protected]> wrote:

> An option: If you have an EV conversion that is a car built 25yrs ago or
> more, register it as an Antique vehicle. In many (most?) states, antique
> vehicle plates and registration are a one-time cost without annual or
> biannual renewals. I would guess that any EV registered as an antique
> vehicle and with those plates would be exempt from any annual EV road tax.
> To receive antique registration and plates you certify that you don't drive
> the car for anything other than parades, shows, club events, etc. It's
> pretty loose. I think similar rules apply for Specialty plates---those
> plates would probably fit well for folks who have drag bikes, drag cars,
> etc.
>
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Discussion Starter #16
Exactly my point...the shoe I describe doesn't fit your foot.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of SLPinfo.org
Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 8:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] washington state EV tax

Myles,

I don't mean to be argumentative, but that's not much of an option for those
of us who did a conversion for the express purpose of creating a commuter
vehicle to reduce our carbon footprint (my motivation). My EV is
transportation; it's not for show.

It might work for the person who eariler said they had 8 vehicles which they
only use a little bit each (depending on age of the vehicles of course).

- Peter Flipsen Jr

Myles Twete <[email protected]> wrote:

> An option: If you have an EV conversion that is a car built 25yrs ago or
> more, register it as an Antique vehicle. In many (most?) states, antique
> vehicle plates and registration are a one-time cost without annual or
> biannual renewals. I would guess that any EV registered as an antique
> vehicle and with those plates would be exempt from any annual EV road tax.
> To receive antique registration and plates you certify that you don't
drive
> the car for anything other than parades, shows, club events, etc. It's
> pretty loose. I think similar rules apply for Specialty plates---those
> plates would probably fit well for folks who have drag bikes, drag cars,
> etc.
>
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Discussion Starter #17
On 2/25/2011 4:50 AM, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>
>
>
Willie McKemie<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 09:42:41PM -0500, Roger Heuckeroth wrote:
>>
>>> Just to add some perspective. Here in the Northeast we have a lot of toll roads. I would love to pay only $100/year towards road maintenance. Last year I spent $524 just in tolls. That's not even considering the $0.446/ gal gas tax which cost me about $800 last year. Yes, I drive a lot on business.
>>
>> Forgive me, I fail to see your logic. You drive a lot of petroleum
>> fueled miles and you pay taxes on those miles. And you say that
>> justifies higher taxes on EV miles than on petroleum miles? Are you
>> the 3/4T pickup conversion guy? Are you piling on the miles?
>> 10K/year? Evalbum failed to return anything on a "heuckeroth" search.
>>
>
>
> My logic is simply that $100 is not a lot of money. All this talk about "fairness" is driving me crazy. It's just a hundred bucks and it's a flat tax. I way prefer a flat tax on EVs rather than some metering of electricity or miles driven.
>
> Yes, my conversion is not yet on the EVDL Album. It will be when it's completely finished. And no it's not a 3/4 ton pick up. It's an Audi A4 that needs about 20 hours, and not to be buried in 2 feet of snow to be completed.
>
> Our other vehicles are a Jetta TDI and a Toyota pickup, Combined we put on 44K miles last year. About 2/3 of that was business travel. Spent nearly $6000 on fuel.
>
> We all want nice roads to drive on. Someone has got to pay for them. Funny thing about taxes is everyone thinks they are paying more than their share, or someone else is not paying their fair share. Meanwhile our governments are racking up record deficits.
>

I'm sorry, $100/year IS a LOT of money. No cable TV, cut all that out
years ago. People driving 44K miles/year live large on the land. I'm
sorry, but one big reason that I don't have a nice paying job anymore is
that I refused to play the commute game, and have a job beyond the range
of my EV. And no more apt.-hassle (like getting another EV outlet in a
decent quiet affordable place) moves in the SF Bay Area where the cost
of a decent house is astronomical. It just seems that the numbers keep
getting bigger and bigger - where's the value of a $?

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