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Discussion Starter #1
Ever seen one like it? Proprietary?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcbx57Azisw

Is there something off the shelf that could instead be used?

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Discussion Starter #2
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Ever seen one like it? Proprietary?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rcbx57Azisw
>
> Is there something off the shelf that could instead be used?

It appears to be a large Anderson SBE connector, but not making use of the
auxiliary contact area:

http://www.andersonpower.com/products/multipole-sbe.html

If so, then this is pretty close to off-the-shelf. Though I imagine it's
probably not very convenient to connect and disconnect.


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Discussion Starter #4
Ian Hooper wrote:
> Yeah I was just going to say it's an Anderson, you beat me to it. (I
> hadn't realised they come that large though!)
>
> The 350A Andersons I use require a heap of force to plug/unplug - I
> can't imagine those enormous ones are easy! I guess it is pretty
> tricky to have a contactor that can carry 100kW without huge contact
> forces though.

I can't imagine actually using a connector like that without some kind of
handle, and having one end bolted down to something immovable. I'm going
to guess that holding one in each hand is just not part of the intended
use. :eek:)


> I like the idea suggested in the clip about setting up a charging
> station co-located with food stop. I have this mental image of people
> taking 10 minutes to relax over a coffee on their way in to work at a
> nice alfresco cafe, with their EVs recharging in the carpark. How
> much nicer is that than visiting a petrol station!?

As I imagine that scenario, I'm late for work and cursing through those 10
minutes, wondering why it has to take so long, instead of the 2 minutes or
less that I'm used to with a gas pump. 10 minutes may not seem like a long
time, but the assumption that the wait will be "relaxing" and "you can get
a bite to eat" is one I hear way too often. It simply does not reflect
reality in the vast majority of cases (we're talking mainstream,
non-EV-zealots here), unless it's a Sunday and you're out for a pleasant
recreational drive. Most people who are driving their cars are doing so
because they have some place they need to be. Telling them to "slow down
and smell the roses" is inappropriate in that context.

Of course, there are no good answers to this problem now or on the visible
horizon, except better planning (e.g. I would be sure not to have to stop
for recharging on my way to work). The pie-in-the-sky ideas like vanadium
redox (replacing electrolyte recharges the battery), inductive powered
roadways, or a standardized swappable battery pack infrastructure are nice
to dream about, but are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. So in a
dwindling-petroleum world the only realistic fast-refuel scenario that
would satisfy the demand to quickly get back on the road, seems to be ...
(gulp) hydrogen-electric plug-in hybrids. As someone who thinks hydrogen
fuel cell development is a huge farce, that's pretty hard for me to admit.


--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #5
Evs will not take over until the cost of filling up is more painful than
dealing with charge times.

-----Original Message-----
As I imagine that scenario, I'm late for work and cursing through those 10
minutes, wondering why it has to take so long, instead of the 2 minutes or
less that I'm used to with a gas pump. 10 minutes may not seem like a long
time, but the assumption that the wait will be "relaxing" and "you can get a
bite to eat" is one I hear way too often. It simply does not reflect reality
in the vast majority of cases (we're talking mainstream, non-EV-zealots
here), unless it's a Sunday and you're out for a pleasant recreational
drive. Most people who are driving their cars are doing so because they
have some place they need to be. Telling them to "slow down and smell the
roses" is inappropriate in that context.

Of course, there are no good answers to this problem now or on the visible
horizon, except better planning (e.g. I would be sure not to have to stop
for recharging on my way to work). The pie-in-the-sky ideas like vanadium
redox (replacing electrolyte recharges the battery), inductive powered
roadways, or a standardized swappable battery pack infrastructure are nice
to dream about, but are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. So in a
dwindling-petroleum world the only realistic fast-refuel scenario that would
satisfy the demand to quickly get back on the road, seems to be ...
(gulp) hydrogen-electric plug-in hybrids. As someone who thinks hydrogen
fuel cell development is a huge farce, that's pretty hard for me to admit.



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Discussion Starter #7
I also think it's wildly optimistic that any production EV cheap enough for
the masses will have a 200 mile range.

If it's really expensive, it destroys the value proposition. So it's a
catch-22.

I think BEVs are going to remain an acquired taste for some time to come.
Plugin hybrids are going to be the mainstream product.

-----Original Message-----
Honestly, when people say things like this they are forgetting the greatest
convenience of an EV. Home Based Fueling! Sub 10 minute charge times would
be quite useful on a car with 200+ mile range because by the time you've
exhausted your pack you're likely ready for a leg-stretch yourself!


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Discussion Starter #8
> EVs will not take over until the cost of filling up is more painful
> than dealing with charge times.

It's easy to say things like this. We also hear, "EVs won't take over until their range is more than X miles per charge" (where X is always more than whatever they presently do). Or that "EVs won't sell until their price is less than Y", and similar things.

The truth is, nobody knows what it will take to make EV sales take off. In his book "The Tipping Point", Malcolm Gladwell gives example after example of how deeply entrenched habits of people have suddenly changed.

Most people copy what their neighbors do. If your neighbors all complain about gas prices but drive SUVs, then it is very likely that YOU will do exactly the same thing. Nobody wants to stand out, to be different, to go first. So, *everybody* complains about gas prices but drives SUVs. Nothing changes, no matter how high gas prices go, or how big SUVs get!

But eventually, the pressure of change becomes too great. Just as you can start an avalanche with a small amount of force in just the right place; you can tip the balance, to cause the situation to change. Once it starts to go, it releases a huge response, far larger and faster than anyone thought possible.

I think this is where we are with EVs -- right at the tipping point. People are ready to change (though they might not admit it, and may not even be aware of it themselves). The right EV, and just a few early adopters, will start an avalanche of change. It won't be some movie star buying a $100,000 EV sports car; it will be your next door neighbor buying an EV conversion that he drives to work every day.


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Discussion Starter #9
[email protected] wrote:
> Evs will not take over until the cost of filling up is more painful
> than dealing with charge times.

Alternatively, "commuter" EVs which can handle reasonably sized daily
trips and be recharged overnight have a good chance of taking over, and
even creating a new, market. If gas costs too much, the daily commute
being a set and usually reasonable size will allow recharging to be
conveniently possible.

If the vehicles themselves are downsized, it will allow existing
highways into urban areas to be reconfigured for less congestion (e.g.,
turn two full size car lanes into a set of three-lane EV "commuter" lanes.

There is already a tendency for multiple cars - today we call it
"conspicuous consumption." Small and dedicated EVs will allow us to
steal a term and call it "rightsizing."

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Discussion Starter #10
I find it funny that most people want Electric vehicles to be 100% in
the first year. They even want conversions to be better that ICE or at
least cheaper. Lets wait another 20 years....

We need reliable, reasonable EV transportation in large numbers, the
increases in range and polish will come.

But I have noticed quiet a few people have turned their head when the
see me drive the electric day after day. It comes when the see me daily
for a while (usually in my rear view mirror) and then days later find
out it is electric.

On an off-topic subject, it reminds me of a software engineer at work
who is an almost evangelistic windows user who happened to be in my
cubical when another engineer asked me a question. I run Linux and use
the 3d desktop. I rolled the dual screened cube over to the other
3200x1200 surface and could hear the exclamation under his breath. He
knows it exists, he is next to 20 engineers using it every day. But when
he saw it, he was taken back. That is how ice drivers will remember an
EV. when it surprises them.



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extraordinary gentleman
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Discussion Starter #11
This isn't about what's pratical or logical. It's what the public will
embrace. They will want to change how they drive as little as possible.
Just getting into the plugin routine is a big change for them. That's why
Toyota has been anti-plugin. They are obviously very cynical about american
driving habits.

-----Original Message-----
Alternatively, "commuter" EVs which can handle reasonably sized daily
trips and be recharged overnight have a good chance of taking over,



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Discussion Starter #12
for the life of me I can't understand why anyone wouldn't embrace the idea =
of plugging in your car at home overnight and as a result not having to sto=
p at the gas station weekly and deal the time and hassle =


> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:36:15 -0700
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] What connector is this?
> =

> This isn't about what's pratical or logical. It's what the public will
> embrace. They will want to change how they drive as little as possible.
> Just getting into the plugin routine is a big change for them. That's why
> Toyota has been anti-plugin. They are obviously very cynical about ameri=
can
> driving habits.
> =

> -----Original Message-----
> Alternatively, "commuter" EVs which can handle reasonably sized daily =

> trips and be recharged overnight have a good chance of taking over,
> =

> =

> =

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Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook =96 together at last. =
Get it now.
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=3DCL10062=
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Discussion Starter #13
Because driving is equated with freedom, and freedom relies on the ubiquity
of gas stations. People love the idea of being able to jump in the car at a
moment's notice and go wherever they want to go--whenever they feel the
urge. If they wake up in a cold sweat at 2AM and want to wear a diaper like
that astronaut and drive nonstop for 24 hours straight, they damn well want
to be able to do that. It's not that they exercise this very often. They
like the feeling of being able to do it.

BTW, most people fill up much more often than once a week.

-----Original Message-----
for the life of me I can't understand why anyone wouldn't embrace the idea
of plugging in your car at home overnight and as a result not having to stop
at the gas station weekly and deal the time and hassle


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Discussion Starter #15
> Of course, there are no good answers to this problem now or on the visible
> horizon, except better planning (e.g. I would be sure not to have to stop
> for recharging on my way to work). The pie-in-the-sky ideas like vanadium
> redox (replacing electrolyte recharges the battery), inductive powered
> roadways, or a standardized swappable battery pack infrastructure are nice
> to dream about, but are unlikely to happen in my lifetime. So in a
> dwindling-petroleum world the only realistic fast-refuel scenario that
> would satisfy the demand to quickly get back on the road, seems to be ...
> (gulp) hydrogen-electric plug-in hybrids. As someone who thinks hydrogen
> fuel cell development is a huge farce, that's pretty hard for me to admit.

Not to run OT here (sorry David...) but this whole paragraph seems
totally cognitively dissonant. First, isn't there at least as much
standardization work to be done on hydrogen fueling as there would be in
swappable batteries? I don't think either is a great idea, but I don't
see this as any kind of win for H2. But at a more basic level, why is
fast charging so hard to believe relative to these other options? Yes,
it will take a lot of watts at the filling point. And it will take
batteries at least as good as A123/Altair style cells. So? Compare those
two hurdles (considering our preexisting electrical grid) to the
construction of thousands of H2 stations (with all the pump and delivery
standardization this entails) the development of halfway efficient H2
production, safe H2 transport, and the basic drawbacks of fuel cells
(lose efficiency over time, horrendously expensive, lose H2 while parked
in the garage), and the fast-charging problem looks very conquerable.

In short, I wouldn't go around "admitting" that H2==future just yet.

Hunter

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Discussion Starter #16
Hunter Cook wrote:
>
> Not to run OT here (sorry David...) but this whole paragraph seems
> totally cognitively dissonant. First, isn't there at least as much
> standardization work to be done on hydrogen fueling as there would be in
> swappable batteries? I don't think either is a great idea, but I don't
> see this as any kind of win for H2. But at a more basic level, why is
> fast charging so hard to believe relative to these other options? Yes,
> it will take a lot of watts at the filling point. And it will take
> batteries at least as good as A123/Altair style cells. So? Compare those
> two hurdles (considering our preexisting electrical grid) to the
> construction of thousands of H2 stations (with all the pump and delivery
> standardization this entails) the development of halfway efficient H2
> production, safe H2 transport, and the basic drawbacks of fuel cells
> (lose efficiency over time, horrendously expensive, lose H2 while parked
> in the garage), and the fast-charging problem looks very conquerable.
>
> In short, I wouldn't go around "admitting" that H2==future just yet.

My point was this: People (not counting us, or other folks who have
already seen the wisdom in modifying our lifestyles a little to suit our
vehicles' needs) in general don't want to lose the ability to
refuel/recharge quickly. 10 minutes is *not* quickly. "Time enough to
relax and get a bite to eat" is *not* an acceptable compromise to anyone
but us out here on the fringe. 10 minutes is at least 4-5 *times* as long
as it takes to refuel my car at most pumps around here. Would I care about
this? Heck no, like others on this list I'd consider it a huge
improvement over the current state of the art. But you'll have little
success convincing the masses to make these compromises. And so far, that
10 minutes has only been demonstrated to get an EV about 40-50 miles.

The difference between the standardization effort for hydrogen refueling
and swappable batteries is massive; the two can hardly be compared. The
difference is that one is a pie-in-the-sky idea that people like us throw
around as "wouldn't it be great", and the other has the (perhaps
misplaced) financial and political backing of a supposed superpower nation
behind it. (If you'd like to start an initiative to create an
international standardized swappable EV battery infrastructure; you'd best
get started today; I'll check back with you in about 50 years.)

Hydrogen is indeed a fool's dream; it's like a battery that's more leaky
and far less efficient. But people will be convinced to use it, at the
high environmental and economic costs of fossil fuel reformation and/or
the terrible "charge efficiency" of electrolysis, simply because it's more
convenient. To hell with all other considerations -- business as usual. I
believe we as a community have little or no power to change this course in
time to make a difference.

On the other hand we can (and so far, are making good progress to)
convince people and the automotive industry that PHEVs are a good idea.
It's an electric car for X miles, then it runs on hydrocarbons. I can see
a possibility, once hydrogen vehicles become available, to convince people
that the plug-in hybrid concept is still worthwhile even just as a
money-saving concept, in that context.

I don't have the confidence in human nature or our western culture to
think that we can be saved from that mediocre future by anything less than
a battery that can be charged from "empty" for at least 150-200 miles of
driving, in 2-3 minutes. And that, I believe, is also not likely to happen
before the US and the automotive industry blindly push fuel cell
automobiles into mass production.

--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #17
From: David Nelson
> I've had people say they would convert my Gizmo to gas if they owned
> it! They don't want the hassle of having to plug it in. I like to
> then ask if they have converted their cell phone to gasoline so they
> don't have to plug it in. It is a new concept to them. It is the "my
> mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" syndrome, I think.

Indeed! I keep thinking it would be fun to make a gasoline-powered flashlight, cellphone, laptop, etc. just as a joke. They would have a little gasoline engine driving a generator to power the device.

It shouldn't take people long to realize that the idea of having a roaring, stinking, vibrating gasoline engine is a far inferior solution to batteries! So why do we put up with them in cars? :)

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Discussion Starter #18
Seems like at the size you're talking it'd be easier to get one of those
little demo sterlings. Not that the big ol' gas generator wouldn't have
its own absurdity value...

Lee Hart wrote:
> From: David Nelson
> > I've had people say they would convert my Gizmo to gas if they owned
> > it! They don't want the hassle of having to plug it in. I like to
> > then ask if they have converted their cell phone to gasoline so they
> > don't have to plug it in. It is a new concept to them. It is the "my
> > mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" syndrome, I think.
>
> Indeed! I keep thinking it would be fun to make a gasoline-powered flashlight, cellphone, laptop, etc. just as a joke. They would have a little gasoline engine driving a generator to power the device.
>
> It shouldn't take people long to realize that the idea of having a roaring, stinking, vibrating gasoline engine is a far inferior solution to batteries! So why do we put up with them in cars? :)
>
> --
> "Excellence does not require perfection." -- Henry James
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net
>
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Discussion Starter #19
Lee Hart wrote:
> From: David Nelson
>> I've had people say they would convert my Gizmo to gas if they owned
>> it! They don't want the hassle of having to plug it in. I like to
>> then ask if they have converted their cell phone to gasoline so they
>> don't have to plug it in. It is a new concept to them. It is the "my
>> mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts" syndrome, I think.
>
> Indeed! I keep thinking it would be fun to make a gasoline-powered
> flashlight, cellphone, laptop, etc. just as a joke. They would have a
> little gasoline engine driving a generator to power the device.
>
> It shouldn't take people long to realize that the idea of having a
> roaring, stinking, vibrating gasoline engine is a far inferior solution to
> batteries! So why do we put up with them in cars? :)

Folks, it's already being done. It's not a joke.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=193105610&pgno=1

It doesn't *matter* that it's a ridiculous idea. It's more convenient.
Power it with fossil fuels, and you won't need to recharge your cell phone
more than twice a month.

So to the suggestion of a gas-powered cell phone, the informed mainstream
thinker (aware of the real possibility and its anticipated operating
characteristics) would say "absolutely, when can I get one?" We should not
underestimate the difficulty in promoting battery technology, with all the
facts in hand, to someone who simply can't see the value of anything not
measured in their own dollars or hassle.


--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #20
> 10 minutes is *not* quickly. "Time enough to
> relax and get a bite to eat" is *not* an acceptable compromise to anyone
> but us out here on the fringe. 10 minutes is at least 4-5 *times* as long
> as it takes to refuel my car at most pumps around here.

Have you actually timed this? I don't think I'm fueling in 2 minutes.
Maybe your tank is smaller. But whatever. Is 5min (altair's claim) fast
enough? Are the masses in America really all freaking out and staring at
their watches at the gas pump? Is this really crisis territory? I
certainly haven't noticed these anxious multitudes. I notice that
sometimes in my ICE car (even before I got EV religion) I pull up to an
older gas station and the pumps are slower...maybe takes twice as long.
Funny, I never get angry and/or drive on to the next service station
that has faster pumps. I really think you are making way too much out of
this, particularly considering the rate of advancement we've been
seeing...and particularly comparing that rate to H2 development.

> Hydrogen is indeed a fool's dream; it's like a battery that's more leaky
> and far less efficient. But people will be convinced to use it, at the
> high environmental and economic costs of fossil fuel reformation and/or
> the terrible "charge efficiency" of electrolysis, simply because it's more
> convenient.

Just what on earth about a fuel-cell vehicle strikes you as
"convenient"!? A $750,000 car with moderate performance that uses an
incredibly expensive (in manufacturing cost terms as well as price) fuel
available at a few dozen locations (which are also extremely expensive
to build) is convenient? Oh, I forgot to mention that it leaks the fuel
when it's off, and uses more total energy than any other mode of
propulsion including ICE. You think Americans are going to overlook the
car not going as far or fast after the first year more readily than they
will tolerate a 10 minute charge time in those very rare instances (~5%
of the time perhaps?) when they haven't fully charged at home or need to
go farther than their range? You think they'll tolerate the fuel being
*more* expensive than gas? I just don't see how you can miss the fact
that H2 isn't even in the same league of possibility with BEVs, fast
charging or otherwise.

> I don't have the confidence in human nature or our western culture to
> think that we can be saved from that mediocre future by anything less than
> a battery that can be charged from "empty" for at least 150-200 miles of
> driving, in 2-3 minutes. And that, I believe, is also not likely to happen
> before the US and the automotive industry blindly push fuel cell
> automobiles into mass production.

First, spare me the blindly cynical "human nature/western culture"
stuff. Second, I disagree with both those propositions. Much more
strongly on which happens first; I look at the recent precipitous drop
in charging times and the steadily-stratospheric costs of H2 technology,
and to consider that the latter might beat the former to market seems
pretty much laughable. How long did it take to charge a Li battery 5
years ago? Did H2 fuel-cells get remarkably better or cheaper in that
time? No contest. But also I don't think 2-3 minutes is a necessity at
all. You don't need absolute parity with ICE fueling when you only have
to fuel 5% of the time. The other 95% of the time it was just charged
when you stepped into the car. It would be nice to be able to charge in
a few minutes when out on the road, but it's a consideration that most
of us only deal with occasionally.

Your argument about superpower backing is basically that a good salesman
can sell anything to the public. It would be more convincing if the
people you are trying to call the salesman were doing more than the
embryonic research. And for what it's worth, I think that while salesman
can do a lot, the product still matters...and until a massive
breakthrough on many levels, there is simply no fuel-cell vehicle
product that's even remotely saleable, to masses or even to most
millionaires. Show me a fuel-cell model that presells 600 units
(matching Tesla's slow-charging model) in the next 5 years and I'll eat
my hat. And I don't even wear a hat.

Hunter

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