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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi John etc,

To set toe in usually to 1/16" to 1/8" put a tape measure across the rear part of the front wheels from the same center tread point on each tire. Compare that to the front. Loosen the tie rod end clamps and adjust both exactly the same 1/4 turn increments and recheck for a 1/16-1/8 differntial for less measurement in the front. If you have outside scrub wear that can also be camber and check on a flat concrete surface to see with a level that the top of the tire isn't in from the bottom. Generally camber should be 0 unless your're racing around corners and might want the bottom's kicked out a bit (negative camber). Caster is like caster wheels on a grocery cart or a motorcycle rake and is usually around 4-5 degrees for stable turning. Frame squareness usually has to be checked by a *reputable* body shop. BTW, I didn't do to Porsche of Roanoke because they were out of the way downtown on Franklin street but maybe I should have. Anyway, now I know how to do it myself w!
hich is certainly easier/cheaper/better.

Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I am going to have my VW Rabbit pickup alignment checked. Should it be set
to factory specs or zero camber and toe-in? Thanks, Al

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello Al,

If you do not drive the vehicle and let it set, you can set the toe in and
camber at 0 degrees. If a toe in is set to 0 degrees and you start moving
the vehicle, the tires will tend to toe out at speed, so you will have more
wear on the inside of your tires.

The toe out of the tires will increase in speed. If one tire is toeing out
more than the other, then the vehicle will tend to pull in that direction,
so that is why we toe in the tires at rest.

If I am going to drive my vehicle at speeds of 60 mph and less, than I have
my toe in set at about 1/8 inch in. As the speed increases in the vehicle,
the toe in will travel from 1/8 to 0 inch.

The camber is set for the weight and jog of the vehicle. Jog is the amount
of travel that the suspension is allow to move. Some vehicles have stops
in the suspension system to prevent over travel, so set you camber to the
factory specs with the additional weight of the vehicle.

Of course if you are overload, where your suspension bottom outs at every
bump, this will also increase the wear on the inside edge of your tires. It
is best to have the alignment shop bring the camber back to specs at that
increase weight.

You should have a reference to give the alignment shop in height difference
between the stock height and the conversion height for them to make the
adjustments.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Al" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:43 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment


> I am going to have my VW Rabbit pickup alignment checked. Should it be set
> to factory specs or zero camber and toe-in? Thanks, Al
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Roland Wiench wrote:
> The toe out of the tires will increase in speed. If one tire is toeing out
> more than the other, then the vehicle will tend to pull in that direction,
> so that is why we toe in the tires at rest.

I believe that the statement above from Roland holds true only for REAR
wheel drive cars, as I'm pretty sure his is. For FRONT wheel drive
cars, the wheels will tend to toe IN further when driving, so the
opposite of the statement above would hold true.

Right folks? Correct me if I'm wrong.

cheers,

Andrew

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Depends on whether the front wheels are pushing or pulling
(regen or regular braking) so the toe-in is a dynamic parameter
during driving conditions, you should set it such that
it is safe in extreme cases and that the most prevalent use has
the toe as close to zero as practical.
For a front-wheel driven car, this could mean that a slight
(half degree or so) toe-out might deliver the optimum low
rolling resistance.
Note that factory specs are usually quite generous in what they
allow, so one of the best things that you could do is to require
that the alignment is set very close to the optimal spec, not
somewhere generally within the allowed range.
This could bring you up to a degree away from where you want the
toe to be, so be alert to give them the value you want, not depend
on their factory-supplied tables.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrew Letton
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 11:47 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment

Roland Wiench wrote:
> The toe out of the tires will increase in speed. If one tire is
> toeing out more than the other, then the vehicle will tend to pull in
> that direction, so that is why we toe in the tires at rest.

I believe that the statement above from Roland holds true only for REAR wheel drive cars, as I'm pretty sure his is. For FRONT wheel drive cars, the wheels will tend to toe IN further when driving, so the opposite of the statement above would hold true.

Right folks? Correct me if I'm wrong.

cheers,

Andrew

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
factory specs are designed so that when the vehicle is in motion instead of=
at rest camber and toe move toward 0, toe especially , if you have them se=
t at 0 statically they will not go down the road as such (again especially =
the toe figure) unfortunately (i assume this is an EV we are talking about)=
the weight i am guessing you have added has probably changed the ride heig=
ht and made the factory specs no longer 100% valid, unfortunately the only =
way available to most people/shops to correct for these variations is throu=
gh trial and error testing, I would suggest starting with the factory specs=
and watching carefully for uneven tire wear that may indicate you need to =
move away from those specs =


> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 00:43:21 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment
> =

> I am going to have my VW Rabbit pickup alignment checked. Should it be se=
t =

> to factory specs or zero camber and toe-in? Thanks, Al
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
yes camber is a tire wearing angle, you are confusing it with caster, but t=
he best camber settings for rolling resistance are going to be the worst fo=
r tire wear
> =

> Camber isn't a tire wearing angle, so it also shouldn't hurt rolling
> resistance. Are you racing?
> =

> Toe in will affect both tire wear and rolling resistance. Factory
> settings should compensate for forces acting on your steering linkage
> and try to make your tires point straight down the road. If you have
> zero toe in on the alignment rack, you will probably have some tire
> scrubbing (wear, resistance) while driving.
> =

> Your choice, opinions will vary.
> =

> Dave Cover


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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Actually the vw pickup is front wheel drive so it will tend to toe in when =
in motion

> Hello Al,
> =

> If you do not drive the vehicle and let it set, you can set the toe in an=
d =

> camber at 0 degrees. If a toe in is set to 0 degrees and you start movin=
g =

> the vehicle, the tires will tend to toe out at speed, so you will have mo=
re =

> wear on the inside of your tires.
> =

> The toe out of the tires will increase in speed. If one tire is toeing o=
ut =

> more than the other, then the vehicle will tend to pull in that direction=
, =

> so that is why we toe in the tires at rest.
> =

> If I am going to drive my vehicle at speeds of 60 mph and less, than I ha=
ve =

> my toe in set at about 1/8 inch in. As the speed increases in the vehicl=
e, =

> the toe in will travel from 1/8 to 0 inch.
> =

> The camber is set for the weight and jog of the vehicle. Jog is the amou=
nt =

> of travel that the suspension is allow to move. Some vehicles have stop=
s =

> in the suspension system to prevent over travel, so set you camber to the =

> factory specs with the additional weight of the vehicle.
> =

> Of course if you are overload, where your suspension bottom outs at every =

> bump, this will also increase the wear on the inside edge of your tires. =
It =

> is best to have the alignment shop bring the camber back to specs at that =

> increase weight.
> =

> You should have a reference to give the alignment shop in height differen=
ce =

> between the stock height and the conversion height for them to make the =

> adjustments.
> =

> Roland
> =

> =

> =

> =

> ----- Original Message ----- =

> From: "Al" <[email protected]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 10:43 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment
> =

> =

> > I am going to have my VW Rabbit pickup alignment checked. Should it be =
set
> > to factory specs or zero camber and toe-in? Thanks, Al
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Why would this be? Because it has to take energy to wear the tires, right.
So, if it's wearing the tire more, how could it be less rolling
resistance.... just doesn't quite make sense to me.

Z

robert harder <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> yes camber is a tire wearing angle, you are confusing it with caster, but
> the best camber settings for rolling resistance are going to be the worst
> for tire wear
> >
> >
>
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
as camber moves away from zero the tire tilts in (negative camber) or out (=
positive camber) making a smaller contact patch between the tire and the ro=
ad the tires wear faster and unevenly because a smaller area of rubber is s=
eeing all the weight of that corner of the car but the rolling resistance s=
hould ( I can't say I have ever measured or seen measurements for it) go do=
wn due to the smaller contact patch, also I think that if you were measurin=
g tire wear as an average across the tread section you probably could consi=
der it a non wearing angle beacuse the increased wear on one side would be =
offset by the reduced wear on the other side, but it will still destroy a s=
et of tires if it is not right


> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:52:56 -0700
> From: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment
> =

> Why would this be? Because it has to take energy to wear the tires, righ=
t.
> So, if it's wearing the tire more, how could it be less rolling
> resistance.... just doesn't quite make sense to me.
> =

> Z
> =

>
robert harder <[email protected]> wrote:
> =

> >
> > yes camber is a tire wearing angle, you are confusing it with caster, b=
ut
> > the best camber settings for rolling resistance are going to be the wor=
st
> > for tire wear
> > >
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ah, I get it.... you can adjust the camber to essentially make the tire
appear like a narrower tire... riding it on one corner of the tire instead
of flat all the way across.... but of course, then it wears only the part
that's touching the road.... Makes sense now. Thanks

Z

robert harder <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> as camber moves away from zero the tire tilts in (negative camber) or out
> (positive camber) making a smaller contact patch between the tire and the
> road the tires wear faster and unevenly because a smaller area of rubber =
is
> seeing all the weight of that corner of the car but the rolling resistance
> should ( I can't say I have ever measured or seen measurements for it) go
> down due to the smaller contact patch, also I think that if you were
> measuring tire wear as an average across the tread section you probably
> could consider it a non wearing angle beacuse the increased wear on one s=
ide
> would be offset by the reduced wear on the other side, but it will still
> destroy a set of tires if it is not right
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 17:52:56 -0700
> > From: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wheel Alignment
> >
> > Why would this be? Because it has to take energy to wear the tires,
> right.
> > So, if it's wearing the tire more, how could it be less rolling
> > resistance.... just doesn't quite make sense to me.
> >
> > Z
> >
> > On Dec 7, 2007 5:49 PM, robert harder <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > yes camber is a tire wearing angle, you are confusing it with caster,
> but
> > > the best camber settings for rolling resistance are going to be the
> worst
> > > for tire wear
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
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_CPC_MediaCtr_bigscreen_102007
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