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Discussion Starter #1
I've got soil heating cable running beneath the LiFePO4 cells in my battery
box. I'm about to install a thermostat on it that shuts off above 75
degrees F. The thermostat will hang between two adjacent rows of cells.
I'm wondering how close to the bottom of the cells it should go. They're
about 8 inches tall.

Thanks.

Bill

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Discussion Starter #2
I'd put it right in the centre of the pack if you only have the one.
If you have shunts on the cells try to place the thermostat sensor so
it won't get affected by the direct heating effect of the shunt
resistors.

How hot does the outside of the soil heating cable get?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



Bill Dennis wrote:

> I've got soil heating cable running beneath the LiFePO4 cells in my
> battery
> box. I'm about to install a thermostat on it that shuts off above 75
> degrees F. The thermostat will hang between two adjacent rows of
> cells.
> I'm wondering how close to the bottom of the cells it should go.
> They're
> about 8 inches tall.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill
>
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Discussion Starter #3
Don't know how hot the outside of the wire gets. It uses 3 1/2 watts per
linear foot, and in testing, it never reached the point where I couldn't
put my hands on it. The cable doesn't touch the cells directly, but it
affixed to the bottom of the battery box with foil tape, with a small gap
between wire and cell.

Bill

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Martin WINLOW [email protected]
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 16:56:19 +0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where to Put the Thermostat


I'd put it right in the centre of the pack if you only have the one. =

If you have shunts on the cells try to place the thermostat sensor so =

it won't get affected by the direct heating effect of the shunt =

resistors.

How hot does the outside of the soil heating cable get?

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



Bill Dennis wrote:

> I've got soil heating cable running beneath the LiFePO4 cells in my =

> battery
> box. I'm about to install a thermostat on it that shuts off above 75
> degrees F. The thermostat will hang between two adjacent rows of =

> cells.
> I'm wondering how close to the bottom of the cells it should go. =

> They're
> about 8 inches tall.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #4
If you put it close to the wire then the thermostat will be constantly
switching on and off without actually heating anything, wearing out
the relay contacts unnecessarily. If you put it halfway up the pack
by the time the thermostat has got warm at least some heating effect
will have occurred. Obviously there is something of a time delay as
the heat moves through the pack. A bit of trial and error will be
required I think. I'd be nice to have at least 9 temp probes on a 3 x
3 x 3 grid throughout the pack to monitor how the heat moves with
time. In my fairly well insulated battery box, the temp stays fairly
constant with the aid of an electric blanket under neath the cells
(separated by a piece of 9mm plywood).

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk


Bill Dube wrote:

> Put it very close to the heating element.
>
> If you put the thermostat any distance away, the system will "hunt"
> and the temperature can swing wildly. It is called "transport delay"
> in control systems lingo.
>
> Think of trying to adjust the shower temperature with a 100 ft pipe
> between the faucets and the shower head and you get the idea.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 09:22 PM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>> I've got soil heating cable running beneath the LiFePO4 cells in my
>> battery
>> box. I'm about to install a thermostat on it that shuts off above 75
>> degrees F. The thermostat will hang between two adjacent rows of
>> cells.
>> I'm wondering how close to the bottom of the cells it should go.
>> They're
>> about 8 inches tall.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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Discussion Starter #5
I bolted mine to the steel bracket about midway up the side of a cell
(LiFePO4). The bracket is part of the clamping system used to clamp groups
of cells together. Been using it with a controller and Farnum battery
heaters from kta-ev since Nov/2009 with no problems. The temperature is
very stable, and agrees with the temperature reading from the IR sensor on
my DVM - on any cell in the pack, when read in the morning before using the
car.
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Discussion Starter #6
Tom,

Do you have the cells sitting directly on the battery heaters? Also,
what are you using for a thermostat? IIRC, you are only running the
heaters when on AC power.

tomw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I bolted mine to the steel bracket about midway up the side of a cell
> (LiFePO4). The bracket is part of the clamping system used to clamp gr=
oups
> of cells together. Been using it with a controller and Farnum battery
> heaters from kta-ev since Nov/2009 with no problems. The temperature is
> very stable, and agrees with the temperature reading from the IR sensor on
> my DVM - on any cell in the pack, when read in the morning before using t=
he
> car.

-- =

David D. Nelson
http://evalbum.com/1328

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Discussion Starter #7
Bill Dube wrote:
>> Put it very close to the heating element. If you put the thermostat
>> any distance away, the system will "hunt" and the temperature can
>> swing wildly.

Martin WINLOW wrote:
> If you put it close to the wire then the thermostat will be
> constantly switching on and off without actually heating anything,
> wearing out the relay contacts unnecessarily. If you put it halfway
> up the pack by the time the thermostat has got warm at least some
> heating effect will have occurred... A bit of trial and error will be
> required...

Exactly so. I designed HVAC systems for Robertshaw and Honeywell for
many years, and can provide some insight.

When the heater control is just on/off, and the temperature sensor is a
thermostat that also switches on/off, it is called a "bang-bang" system.
It is the simplest kind of control, but adequate when you don't need
precise temperature control.

With such a system, choose the distance between the heater and
temperature sensor so it cycles on/off a few times per hour. If the
sensor is too close, it cycles too fast, which wears things out quicker.
If the sensor is too far away, it cycles too slowly, leading to large
temperature extremes.

> I'd be nice to have at least 9 temp probes on a 3 x 3 grid throughout
> the pack to monitor how the heat moves with time.

There's nothing wrong with using many bimetal temperature sensing
switches. They are pretty small and cheap. If they open when hot, wire
them in series; any one turning off turns off the heater.

> In my fairly well insulated battery box, the temp stays fairly
> constant with the aid of an electric blanket underneath the cells
> (separated by a piece of 9mm plywood).

You want all the cells/batteries at the same temperature. One way is to
put them all in the same box, tight against each other, so heat can flow
freely from one to the others.

If they have to be in separate boxes, or aren't tightly touching each
other, you're likely to need separate heaters and thermostats for each
group.

I wouldn't use wood in a battery box; it's a poor insulator, conducts
when wet, burns, rots if it gets battery acid on it, etc.

Also be careful about putting any insulation around the wire. The heater
will work poorly, or overheat, melt, or even start a fire.

If the wire is the kind that automatically changes its resistance with
temperature, then it will stop producing heat if you insulate it.

If the wire is the more normal kind that draws pretty much the same
current regardless of its temperature, then it superheats if you
surround it with insulation.

I make battery heaters by cutting a thin aluminum plate about the size
of the bottom of the battery box. I tape the resistance wire to it with
double-sided tape, spreading it out so the strands are about 2" from
each other. I then put it in a polyethylene bag, pour in potting
compound, and use a vacuum cleaner to suck out the excess air. When it
cures, I have a waterproof insulated heating plate.

I put this directly under the batteries, aluminum side up. The aluminum
"heat sinks" the wire so it won't melt, spreads the heat out over the
batteries, and provides a large surface area to transfer the heat to the
batteries. I put a sheet of styrafoam insulation under the sheet. It
provides thermal insulation, and its softness prevents pinching the wire
insulation.

The aluminum sheet has a ground wire, so if the potting or baggie leaks,
I can detect it via a GFCI.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Discussion Starter #8
"Do you have the cells sitting directly on the battery heaters? Also, what
are you using for a thermostat? IIRC, you are only running the heaters when
on AC power. "

Yes, a group of 3 or 4 cells sits directly on a heater, which is on top of
1/2" insulation, placed on the smooth bottom of a steel box. The insulation
is a polyurethane used for packaging, and is resistant to acids (and nuclear
radiation!). It is quite stiff and resistant to deformation. It shows no
sign of deformation from the cells thus far. I think the stuff made by
Corning and available at Home Depot would also work well, and is much less
costly. I was thinking acid resistant, but of course that isn't a problem
with LiFEPO4 cells. It might be nice to set some thin (for lower thermal
resistance) stiff material on top of the heaters to interface between them
and the bottom of the ribbed cells - but makes it more difficult to get the
wire leads out. The heaters look fine so far though, at least the couple
examined this past fall.

Yes, I only heat with AC when parked in the garage. The garage is unheated
and not attached to the house, so the cells would get quite cold otherwise.
Last winter the cells remained above 50 F if the car was left sitting in
mid-twenties temperatures for about 4 to 5 hours after a 7 mile drive. They
have quite a bit of heat capacity. The tops of the battery boxes are just
3/8" plywood with carpet on top, no insulation. Would be better if they had
some. Would also be nice if you could remove the insulation from the sides
of the box in summer, but the highest cell temperature I measured this
summer was 112 F after driving about 20 some miles on a 100 F day. The
heater runs off the same plug as the charger (one phase), which is
interlocked to the ignition, but has its own on/off switch. The heaters are
only about 30W each, or about 300W total for the 10 I am using, so they
wouldn't be that much of a load on a pack. They work though - last winter
they stayed right at set point on two successive nights of -5 F. Initial
heat up is slow, about 3 F/hour, but then fast heating might result in a
large gradient and "cook" the bottoms of the cells.

--
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Discussion Starter #9
Lee Hart wrote:

> Bill Dube wrote:
>>> Put it very close to the heating element. If you put the thermostat
>>> any distance away, the system will "hunt" and the temperature can
>>> swing wildly.
>
> Martin WINLOW wrote:
>> If you put it close to the wire then the thermostat will be
>> constantly switching on and off without actually heating anything,
>> wearing out the relay contacts unnecessarily. If you put it halfway
>> up the pack by the time the thermostat has got warm at least some
>> heating effect will have occurred... A bit of trial and error will be
>> required...
>
> Exactly so. I designed HVAC systems for Robertshaw and Honeywell for
> many years, and can provide some insight.
>
> When the heater control is just on/off, and the temperature sensor
> is a
> thermostat that also switches on/off, it is called a "bang-bang"
> system.
> It is the simplest kind of control, but adequate when you don't need
> precise temperature control.
>
> With such a system, choose the distance between the heater and
> temperature sensor so it cycles on/off a few times per hour. If the
> sensor is too close, it cycles too fast, which wears things out
> quicker.
> If the sensor is too far away, it cycles too slowly, leading to large
> temperature extremes.
>
>> I'd be nice to have at least 9 temp probes on a 3 x 3 grid throughout
>> the pack to monitor how the heat moves with time.
>
> There's nothing wrong with using many bimetal temperature sensing
> switches. They are pretty small and cheap. If they open when hot, wire
> them in series; any one turning off turns off the heater.
>
>> In my fairly well insulated battery box, the temp stays fairly
>> constant with the aid of an electric blanket underneath the cells
>> (separated by a piece of 9mm plywood).
>
> You want all the cells/batteries at the same temperature. One way is
> to
> put them all in the same box, tight against each other, so heat can
> flow
> freely from one to the others.
>
> If they have to be in separate boxes, or aren't tightly touching each
> other, you're likely to need separate heaters and thermostats for each
> group.
>
> I wouldn't use wood in a battery box; it's a poor insulator, conducts
> when wet, burns, rots if it gets battery acid on it, etc.
>
> Also be careful about putting any insulation around the wire. The
> heater
> will work poorly, or overheat, melt, or even start a fire.
>
> If the wire is the kind that automatically changes its resistance with
> temperature, then it will stop producing heat if you insulate it.
>
> If the wire is the more normal kind that draws pretty much the same
> current regardless of its temperature, then it superheats if you
> surround it with insulation.
>
> I make battery heaters by cutting a thin aluminum plate about the size
> of the bottom of the battery box. I tape the resistance wire to it
> with
> double-sided tape, spreading it out so the strands are about 2" from
> each other. I then put it in a polyethylene bag, pour in potting
> compound, and use a vacuum cleaner to suck out the excess air. When it
> cures, I have a waterproof insulated heating plate.
>
> I put this directly under the batteries, aluminum side up. The
> aluminum
> "heat sinks" the wire so it won't melt, spreads the heat out over the
> batteries, and provides a large surface area to transfer the heat to
> the
> batteries. I put a sheet of styrafoam insulation under the sheet. It
> provides thermal insulation, and its softness prevents pinching the
> wire
> insulation.
>
> The aluminum sheet has a ground wire, so if the potting or baggie
> leaks,
> I can detect it via a GFCI.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
>
Hi Lee,

Your installation sounds very professional as I would expect.

However, I can't help but plug the common or garden domestic electric
blanket - so I'm going to do it again. Your last post raises some
important issues which I think are readily addressed by using an
electric blanket but without any significant cost or hassle.

1/ I too have my blanket sitting on an inch of polyurethane (foil-
backed) insulation which - as you note - offers a more gentle base
than something hard. Done again, I would use foil-backed bubble-wrap
type insulation all round as I have used it on my box lid and found it
extremely effective. Initially, I was concerned about its proximity
to the shunt resistors but have found no problems - thus far (after
about 3k miles). But I have an audible/texting-based smoke alarm
installed - just in case. I have a new BMMS system in the works which
moves the shunts away from the cells too, so this wont be an issue any
more.

2/ The plywood layer above the blanket protects it from the bottoms of
the cells and, as you note, offers little thermal resistance - ideal
then!

3/ The blanket comes with at least 3 important safety factors built-in
- designed to protect a much more valuable 'payload' than a bunch of
TS cells, ie a sleeping bod... - a/ it is isolated from the mains, b/
it has automatic built-in thermal control and c/ it has built in
element failure protection. I use a standard household digital
thermostat to control the heating and it is on whenever the mains is
connected to the vehicle.

4/ Lastly, it is as cheap as chips (that's french fries to you).

I think you would be hard pressed to find a device designed for an
entirely different application that lends itself so well to EV use.


Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk



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Discussion Starter #10
How many watts is a typical blanket?
Do they self limit temperature if turned on full bore?

Al



> However, I can't help but plug the common or garden domestic electric
> blanket - so I'm going to do it again. Your last post raises some
> important issues which I think are readily addressed by using an
> electric blanket but without any significant cost or hassle.
>
> 1/ I too have my blanket sitting on an inch of polyurethane (foil-
> backed) insulation which - as you note - offers a more gentle base
> than something hard. Done again, I would use foil-backed bubble-wrap
> type insulation all round as I have used it on my box lid and found it
> extremely effective. Initially, I was concerned about its proximity
> to the shunt resistors but have found no problems - thus far (after
> about 3k miles). But I have an audible/texting-based smoke alarm
> installed - just in case. I have a new BMMS system in the works which
> moves the shunts away from the cells too, so this wont be an issue any
> more.
>
> 2/ The plywood layer above the blanket protects it from the bottoms of
> the cells and, as you note, offers little thermal resistance - ideal
> then!
>
> 3/ The blanket comes with at least 3 important safety factors built-in
> - designed to protect a much more valuable 'payload' than a bunch of
> TS cells, ie a sleeping bod... - a/ it is isolated from the mains, b/
> it has automatic built-in thermal control and c/ it has built in
> element failure protection. I use a standard household digital
> thermostat to control the heating and it is on whenever the mains is
> connected to the vehicle.
>
> 4/ Lastly, it is as cheap as chips (that's french fries to you).
>
> I think you would be hard pressed to find a device designed for an
> entirely different application that lends itself so well to EV use.
>
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
> Herts, UK
> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
> www.winlow.co.uk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter #11
Mine is 150W at 240VAC but that's when it's on - obviously once its up
to temperature, it will cycle according to how cold it is outside and
how good the battery box insulation is. The only drawback my
particular blanket has is that it has (another) safety feature that
automatically switches it off after 12 hours. To reset it, you have
to switch the mains off and on or switch the control unit off and on
again. Obviously, a simple mains timer set to switch off the blanket
every 12 hours for 1 minute would defeat the first scenario and
afford continuos operation.

Regards, Martin Winlow
Herts, UK
http://www.evalbum.com/2092
www.winlow.co.uk

Al wrote:

> How many watts is a typical blanket?
> Do they self limit temperature if turned on full bore?
>
> Al
>
>
>
>> However, I can't help but plug the common or garden domestic electric
>> blanket - so I'm going to do it again. Your last post raises some
>> important issues which I think are readily addressed by using an
>> electric blanket but without any significant cost or hassle.
>>
>> 1/ I too have my blanket sitting on an inch of polyurethane (foil-
>> backed) insulation which - as you note - offers a more gentle base
>> than something hard. Done again, I would use foil-backed bubble-wrap
>> type insulation all round as I have used it on my box lid and found
>> it
>> extremely effective. Initially, I was concerned about its proximity
>> to the shunt resistors but have found no problems - thus far (after
>> about 3k miles). But I have an audible/texting-based smoke alarm
>> installed - just in case. I have a new BMMS system in the works which
>> moves the shunts away from the cells too, so this wont be an issue
>> any
>> more.
>>
>> 2/ The plywood layer above the blanket protects it from the bottoms
>> of
>> the cells and, as you note, offers little thermal resistance - ideal
>> then!
>>
>> 3/ The blanket comes with at least 3 important safety factors built-
>> in
>> - designed to protect a much more valuable 'payload' than a bunch of
>> TS cells, ie a sleeping bod... - a/ it is isolated from the mains, b/
>> it has automatic built-in thermal control and c/ it has built in
>> element failure protection. I use a standard household digital
>> thermostat to control the heating and it is on whenever the mains is
>> connected to the vehicle.
>>
>> 4/ Lastly, it is as cheap as chips (that's french fries to you).
>>
>> I think you would be hard pressed to find a device designed for an
>> entirely different application that lends itself so well to EV use.
>>
>>
>> Regards, Martin Winlow
>> Herts, UK
>> http://www.evalbum.com/2092
>> www.winlow.co.uk
>>



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