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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I understand that the Nissan Leaf weighs about 3500 lbs. It is based on he
Nissan Versa hatchback which weighs about 2700 lbs. Now I understand that
the battery plus the charger and motor controller (inverter) come to about
600 lbs. However, the electric motor should weigh significantly less than
the gasoline motor, and it needs no transmission, starter motor, muffler,
catalytic converter, etc. So we should have 2700 + 600 - difference in
engine weight - transmission weight - other weights. So i would suspect that
it should weigh around 3000 lbs. Where does the extra weight come in?

Thanks,

-- Larry Gales



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I just test-drove the LEAF, and I was told that the 24 kWh Laminated
Li-Ion Manganese battery weighed 900 pounds and was mounted under the
floor for excellent stability and cornering.

~ Erik
KlnAir4U


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so heavy?
From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, February 05, 2011 2:51 am
To: SEVA <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]>

I understand that the Nissan Leaf weighs about 3500 lbs. It is based on
he
Nissan Versa hatchback which weighs about 2700 lbs. Now I understand
that
the battery plus the charger and motor controller (inverter) come to
about
600 lbs. However, the electric motor should weigh significantly less
than
the gasoline motor, and it needs no transmission, starter motor,
muffler,
catalytic converter, etc. So we should have 2700 + 600 - difference in
engine weight - transmission weight - other weights. So i would suspect
that
it should weigh around 3000 lbs. Where does the extra weight come in?

Thanks,

-- Larry Gales



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hello,

> I understand that the Nissan Leaf weighs about 3500 lbs. It is based on he
> Nissan Versa hatchback which weighs about 2700 lbs. Now I understand that
> the battery plus the charger and motor controller (inverter) come to about
> 600 lbs. However, the electric motor should weigh significantly less than
> the gasoline motor, and it needs no transmission, starter motor, muffler,
> catalytic converter, etc. So we should have 2700 + 600 - difference in
> engine weight - transmission weight - other weights. So i would suspect that
> it should weigh around 3000 lbs. Where does the extra weight come in?


The Versa is similar to the Leaf, but is not the same chassis. The Leaf is longer and wider and taller than the Versa:

Versa is 169.1" long, 102.4" wheelbase, 66.7" wide with ~58.5" track, and is 60.4" high
Leaf is 175" long, 106.3" wheelbase, 69.7" wide with ~60.6" track, and is 61" high.

The track width difference in particular means that it is a different chassis.

Weight is important, but mostly for stop and go traffic. Weight does make it better coasting (more kinetic energy), so you can regain energy used to accelerate. And there is regenerative braking to regain some of the energy "invested" in weight.

Aerodynamic drag is a total loss; and therefor is much more important to low energy consumption. Even at 35-40MPH, the energy lost to aerodynamic drag is about 50%, and above 60-65MPH, the loss is about 75% of the total used.

Drivetrain efficiency is the most important, obviously. The Versa is 28/34MPG, while the Leaf is 106/92MPGe. So, despite it's added weight, the electric drivetrain and slightly better aero make it ~3X more efficient.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That does not seem to be correct...
Let's see: 24kWh in 900 lbs (405kg) is 59 Wh/kg.
Typical Li-Ion is 100-250 Wh/kg and of course this
does not include the battery box, so that may be
why the Leaf's battery is heavier than just the
cells, but still it does not sound like the
specific energy is in the right ballpark,
unless they (Hitachi is the source according to Google)
decided to give in on energy in an attempt to create
a very long lasting battery....

My lead pack had a specific energy of 34kWh/1800lbs
= 42 Wh/kg, just to illustrate how low the Leaf's
pack energy is in comparison if the 900 lbs is correct.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 6:00 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so heavy?

I just test-drove the LEAF, and I was told that the 24 kWh Laminated
Li-Ion Manganese battery weighed 900 pounds and was mounted under the
floor for excellent stability and cornering.

~ Erik
KlnAir4U


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [EVDL] Why is the Nissan Leaf so heavy?
From: Larry Gales <[email protected]>
Date: Sat, February 05, 2011 2:51 am
To: SEVA <[email protected]>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
<[email protected]>

I understand that the Nissan Leaf weighs about 3500 lbs. It is based on
he Nissan Versa hatchback which weighs about 2700 lbs. Now I understand
that the battery plus the charger and motor controller (inverter) come
to about 600 lbs. However, the electric motor should weigh significantly
less than the gasoline motor, and it needs no transmission, starter
motor, muffler, catalytic converter, etc. So we should have 2700 + 600 -
difference in engine weight - transmission weight - other weights. So i
would suspect that it should weigh around 3000 lbs. Where does the extra
weight come in?

Thanks,

-- Larry Gales



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 11:53:17PM +0530, Cor van de Water wrote:
> That does not seem to be correct...
> Let's see: 24kWh in 900 lbs (405kg) is 59 Wh/kg.
> Typical Li-Ion is 100-250 Wh/kg and of course this
> does not include the battery box, so that may be
> why the Leaf's battery is heavier than just the

Without being prepared to offer a specific reference, I will say that
I've read that the Leaf pack is about 600 lb. Much more in line with
my 900lb 37kwh pack.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 146 days 10 hours 51 minutes

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My understanding is that the battery itself weighs 440 lbs (which is about
120 wh/kg -- and that sounds about right) and the charger and motor
controller (inverter) adds another 160-200 lbs. for a total of 600-640 lbs
combined.

-- Larry

Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 05, 2011 at 11:53:17PM +0530, Cor van de Water wrote:
> > That does not seem to be correct...
> > Let's see: 24kWh in 900 lbs (405kg) is 59 Wh/kg.
> > Typical Li-Ion is 100-250 Wh/kg and of course this
> > does not include the battery box, so that may be
> > why the Leaf's battery is heavier than just the
>
> Without being prepared to offer a specific reference, I will say that
> I've read that the Leaf pack is about 600 lb. Much more in line with
> my 900lb 37kwh pack.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 146 days 10 hours 51 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I am still having problems with the weight of the Leaf. Consider the GM
EV1: the specs are available in this URL:

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf

Here we have a vehicle, that excet for the fact that it is a 2-passenger
instead of a 5-passenger vehicle, is everthing the Leaf is in terms of
performance, safety, comfort, air conditioning, etc. , yet has a battery
that is 620 lbs heavier than the battery in the Leaf (1060 vs 440 lbs),has
somewhat longer range (75-130 miles), faster acceleration (0-60 in 8.5 sec
vs 10 for the Leaf). However, the Leaf is 650 lbs heavier than the EV1
(3500 lbs vs 2848 lbs for the EV1) , despite the fact that the EV1's
battery is 620 lbs heavier than the Leaf's battery. That is a difference of
1270 lbs which I have a hard time beliving is just due to the diffrerence
in number of passengers.

Or am I off base here?

-- Larry Gales



On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 4:38 AM, Neil Blanchard
<[email protected]>wrote:

> Hello,
>
> > I understand that the Nissan Leaf weighs about 3500 lbs. It is based on
> he
> > Nissan Versa hatchback which weighs about 2700 lbs. Now I understand
> that
> > the battery plus the charger and motor controller (inverter) come to
> about
> > 600 lbs. However, the electric motor should weigh significantly less
> than
> > the gasoline motor, and it needs no transmission, starter motor, muffler,
> > catalytic converter, etc. So we should have 2700 + 600 - difference in
> > engine weight - transmission weight - other weights. So i would suspect
> that
> > it should weigh around 3000 lbs. Where does the extra weight come in?
>
>
> The Versa is similar to the Leaf, but is not the same chassis. The Leaf is
> longer and wider and taller than the Versa:
>
> Versa is 169.1" long, 102.4" wheelbase, 66.7" wide with ~58.5" track, and
> is 60.4" high
> Leaf is 175" long, 106.3" wheelbase, 69.7" wide with ~60.6" track, and is
> 61" high.
>
> The track width difference in particular means that it is a different
> chassis.
>
> Weight is important, but mostly for stop and go traffic. Weight does make
> it better coasting (more kinetic energy), so you can regain energy used to
> accelerate. And there is regenerative braking to regain some of the energy
> "invested" in weight.
>
> Aerodynamic drag is a total loss; and therefor is much more important to
> low energy consumption. Even at 35-40MPH, the energy lost to aerodynamic
> drag is about 50%, and above 60-65MPH, the loss is about 75% of the total
> used.
>
> Drivetrain efficiency is the most important, obviously. The Versa is
> 28/34MPG, while the Leaf is 106/92MPGe. So, despite it's added weight, the
> electric drivetrain and slightly better aero make it ~3X more efficient.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



--
Larry Gales
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
On 7 Feb 2011 at 21:29, Larry Gales wrote:

> the Leaf is 650 lbs heavier than the EV1 (3500 lbs vs 2848 lbs for the
> EV1) , despite the fact that the EV1's battery is 620 lbs heavier than
> the Leaf's battery. That is a difference of 1270 lbs which I have a
> hard time beliving is just due to the diffrerence in number of
> passengers.

The EV1 was aggressively lightened, from special suspension alloys to extra
light seat frames. IIRC most of this was done by the very creative folks
who developed the Impact prototype. It was in many ways a very well done
EV.

I see little indication that Nissan has invested that level of effort. The
Leaf is cosmetically different from Nissan's ICEVs, but from what I can
tell, it's really a fairly conventional car with an EPTO (electric
powertrain option).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The LEAF is also 5 inches longer and 10 inches taller and since it's a 4 door
hatchback has a lot more volume and glass area, (and glass is heavy).


EVDL Administrator wrote:
>
> On 7 Feb 2011 at 21:29, Larry Gales wrote:
>
>> the Leaf is 650 lbs heavier than the EV1 (3500 lbs vs 2848 lbs for the
>> EV1) , despite the fact that the EV1's battery is 620 lbs heavier than
>> the Leaf's battery. That is a difference of 1270 lbs which I have a
>> hard time beliving is just due to the diffrerence in number of
>> passengers.
>
> The EV1 was aggressively lightened, from special suspension alloys to
> extra
> light seat frames. IIRC most of this was done by the very creative folks
> who developed the Impact prototype. It was in many ways a very well done
> EV.
>
> I see little indication that Nissan has invested that level of effort.
> The
> Leaf is cosmetically different from Nissan's ICEVs, but from what I can
> tell, it's really a fairly conventional car with an EPTO (electric
> powertrain option).
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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>

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hello,

> I am still having problems with the weight of the Leaf. Consider the GM
> EV1: the specs are available in this URL:
>
> http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
>
> Here we have a vehicle, that excet for the fact that it is a 2-passenger
> instead of a 5-passenger vehicle, is everthing the Leaf is in terms of
> performance, safety, comfort, air conditioning, etc. , yet has a battery
> that is 620 lbs heavier than the battery in the Leaf (1060 vs 440 lbs),has
> somewhat longer range (75-130 miles), faster acceleration (0-60 in 8.5 sec
> vs 10 for the Leaf). However, the Leaf is 650 lbs heavier than the EV1
> (3500 lbs vs 2848 lbs for the EV1) , despite the fact that the EV1's
> battery is 620 lbs heavier than the Leaf's battery. That is a difference of
> 1270 lbs which I have a hard time beliving is just due to the diffrerence
> in number of passengers.
>
> Or am I off base here?

As I wrote before, I think that it is the aerodynamic efficiency that made the EV1 as good as it was. Having a low drag car is much more important than is weight.

If the Leaf was as low drag as the EV1, then it's range would be better than the EV1.

For proof, just look at Dave Cloud's Dolphin! It weighs more than the EV1, and uses off the shelf lead acid batteries, and yet it has a longer range than the EV1.

http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/ultimate-aerodynamic-car-dave-clouds-dolphin-13142.html

With a battery pack similar capacity to the Tesla, I think a really aerodynamic car like my CarBEN EV design could go 400+ miles on a charge?

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2010/09/carben-ev-open-source-project-part-3.html

>> Weight is important, but mostly for stop and go traffic. Weight does make
>> it better coasting (more kinetic energy), so you can regain energy used to
>> accelerate. And there is regenerative braking to regain some of the energy
>> "invested" in weight.
>>
>> Aerodynamic drag is a total loss; and therefore is much more important to
>> low energy consumption. Even at 35-40MPH, the energy lost to aerodynamic
>> drag is about 50%, and above 60-65MPH, the loss is about 75% of the total
>> used.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Aerodynamically, the LEAF is kind of miserable. 0.29 is good, but not like
the 0.24 of most hybrids or the 0.19 of the EV1.

That doesn't say anything about weight, but it does help explain range.

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2/8/2011 6:40 AM, Neil Blanchard wrote:
> > As I wrote before, I think that it is the aerodynamic efficiency that
> made the EV1 as good as it was. Having a low drag car is much more
> important than is weight.
>
> Paul MacReady, head of Aerovironment when they designed the Impact/EV-1,
> said there is no one "secret" to its high performance. It was more a
> matter of paying attention to *all* the details. Nothing had to be
> perfect or the best possible; but everything had to be good.
>
> The Nissan Leaf appears to be just like every other modern car, but with
> an electric drive tacked in. Good in a few areas, and poor in many
> others. Styling wins over aerodynamics, cheap wins over efficiency,
> expedient wins over innovation.
>
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Someone said that the Leaf had two more doors than the Versa which made it
heavier... I know that at least some of the Versa's are 4 door, not 2 door,
as I was in one this weekend, and it had four doors :)

I wonder why they would use a different chassis for the leaf... I thought
the Versa was a very nice car (would be nicer as an EV though...)

Z


>
> On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 4:38 AM, Neil Blanchard
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> >
> > The Versa is similar to the Leaf, but is not the same chassis. The Leaf
> is
> > longer and wider and taller than the Versa:
> >
> > Versa is 169.1" long, 102.4" wheelbase, 66.7" wide with ~58.5" track, and
> > is 60.4" high
> > Leaf is 175" long, 106.3" wheelbase, 69.7" wide with ~60.6" track, and
> is
> > 61" high.
> >
> > The track width difference in particular means that it is a different
> > chassis.
> >
> > Weight is important, but mostly for stop and go traffic. Weight does
> make
> > it better coasting (more kinetic energy), so you can regain energy used
> to
> > accelerate. And there is regenerative braking to regain some of the
> energy
> > "invested" in weight.
> >
> > Aerodynamic drag is a total loss; and therefor is much more important to
> > low energy consumption. Even at 35-40MPH, the energy lost to aerodynamic
> > drag is about 50%, and above 60-65MPH, the loss is about 75% of the total
> > used.
> >
> > Drivetrain efficiency is the most important, obviously. The Versa is
> > 28/34MPG, while the Leaf is 106/92MPGe. So, despite it's added weight,
> the
> > electric drivetrain and slightly better aero make it ~3X more efficient.
> >
> > Sincerely, Neil
> > http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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> >
>
>
>
> --
> Larry Gales
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