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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone else disappointed it was an ICE that won the $5 Million X Prize?
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/automotive-x-prize-winner-gets-102-5-mpg/

Regards,
Eric

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Discussion Starter #2
Uh, you mean there weren't stipulations on winning the prize? ... meaning
you can't use if for anything *but* to put the car into production ... no
matter how short a run or unsuccessful it may be.
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Discussion Starter #3
No, not a disappointment, because the rules were clearly stacked form =

the get go.. I also read them and forgot about it as a serious contest..
The only thing you couldn't predict from the initial rule book was the =

SHADE of green the winning car would be painted! Wiht luck some detail =

will get picked up by the suits and go into some production model w/o =

credit of royalties...That is only millimeters better than buying great =

EV ideas and putting them on the shelf.
The only contest worth =

entering for EVs will be the ones created by EV owners/drivers =

themselves, such setting mileage records, speed record or drags trip =

records.
Nothing sells as good as someone else having all the fun [or pretty girls, =
handsome men] with something anyone can buy. =

Keep smiling! =



I don't shop where I can't charge.


=

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Jack,

> The winner proclaimed he entered to make a profit on the prize money, not build a production car. nuff said.


If you are referring to Oliver Kuttner of Edison2, I'm sure you are mistaken; or you misunderstood what he said. I know Oliver, and I was at the Knockout Round in Michigan, and I'm sure they have already spent more than the $5M developing and building about 10 cars, 4 of which were at the competition.

He is completely passionate about making the cars as efficient as possible, and he is doing it for all the right reasons.


Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #5
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:11:00 -0600

The rules were, in my opinion, biased strongly toward internal
combustion....The EPA uses something like 300 W-hr/mile = 100
mpg, while the X-Prize chose 200 W-hr/mile = 100 mpg. (You will
notice that it is _really_ hard to find that number in the X-Prize
public information. It is there, but you really have to dig to find it.)
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/MPGe_Calculator.xls

I had no trouble finding the rule in the original prize announcement
on their web site:
http://www.progressiveautoxprize.org/files/downloads/auto/PIAXP_Guidelines_V_1.3.pdf
The written rule and calculator agree that 300Wh/mi is 113 MPGe. The
rule is just mileage achieved divided by energy put into the car with
electricity converted to gasoline at equal energy content. I was
place to discover that my Force qualified under the 100 MPGe rule.

I think this rule is biased toward electric cars. A big share of
electricity comes from fossil fuels. Converting the fuel into
something else is inefficient. It's inefficient inside the car and
it's (somewhat less) inefficient at the powerplant, but the internal
combustion engine is penalized for this inefficiency, while the
electric car is not.

On the other hand the X-prize also includes a well-to-wheels CO2
emission standard, which does not suffer from this drawback.

Ken


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Discussion Starter #6
Neil (and All),
Does this Oliver guy have an accent? I was listening to the Science
Friday show on NPR, that's National Pro-Corporate Radio, or National
Petroleum Radio, or..., and had to turn it off, which I do quite often
with my love-hate relationship of NPR! I had tuned in to the show that
day because of the X-Prize coverage, but when I realized that this
Oliver guy is married to infernal combustion and he said something
about EV's being too complex, I just couldn't take it! I mean, as a
recovering gear-head, I think that engines are WAY to complex, and the
violence of a piston being forced to go one direction, completely
stopped, and then forced to go in another direction...
BB

> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 21:16:27 -0400
> From: Neil Blanchard
>
> Hi Jack,
>
>> The winner proclaimed he entered to make a profit on the prize money, no=
t build a production car. nuff said.
>
>
> If you are referring to Oliver Kuttner of Edison2, I'm sure you are mista=
ken; or you misunderstood what he said. I know Oliver, and I was at the =
Knockout Round in Michigan, and I'm sure they have already spent more than =
the $5M developing and building about 10 cars, 4 of which were at the compe=
tition.
>
> He is completely passionate about making the cars as efficient as possibl=
e, and he is doing it for all the right reasons.
>
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/

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Discussion Starter #7
> The X-Prize was about getting the highest possible MPGe right?

Nope. That was my initial thought (and disappointment) as well. Once
you're over 100 MPGe for the on-road tests, completed all the required
technical tests (there were many) then it's a pure speed race (staying
over 100 MPGe, and under the 70 mph track maximum speed for non-race
licensed drivers) to beat any remaining competitors. Anything over 100
MPGe does not matter as far as points in the testing or the final race.

So in the final race on the side-by-side class, while our team achieved
the highest MPGe of the 3 competitors that crossed the finish line (Zap
Alias ran outta juice, and Aptera 2e had technical difficulties early),
we did not cross the line in the shortest amount of time so we did not
win the dough.

[email protected]

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Discussion Starter #8
> We need an "Energy" Equivalent (EE) or a "Miles Per Charge" (MPC)
> measurement. Not and MPG "Equivalent".

What about a 'pollution' equivalent.... miles per ton of HydroCarbons?

Rush Dougherty
www.TEVA2.com
Tucson AZ

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Discussion Starter #9
Jack Murray wrote:
> The winner proclaimed he entered to make a profit on the prize money,
> not build a production car. nuff said.

Oliver Kuttner, the man behind the "Edison2" team that won the
mainstream category has certainly built up a reputation as being
something of a character in his local area, near where I now find myself
living. And latest report is they are going to try electric(!).

I've been intrigued following his postings to the team's FaceBook page
(under "Edison2", no membership required, or link from their web site at
www.edison2.com). Tidbits that stayed with me:

They chose ethanol not because of a particular love for the fuel, but
because they felt it gave them the best chance of winning. And he went
into to win.

A essay describing his stance as a "fuel agnostic", ie a fence-sitter
about electrics.

In turn, it was a pleasant surprise to read in this weeks "Hook" (local
news magazine) that "the team is now hard at work on a next generation
edition of the Very Light Car, this time with an electric engine and
assistance from fellow X Prize competitors Li-ion Motors (winner of one
of the two-seater X Prize categories) and a firm called TW4XP."
http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2010/09/16/kuttner-conquers-olivers-edison2-car-wins-5-million-x-prize/

As for the winning car, I too am a bit disappointed. I originally
understood that the goal of mainstream was to build a mass-producible
consumer-ready vehicle. I doubt the many engine mod tricks and exotic
materials for weight reduction would scale up well. I don't know about
heat and air conditioning that Lee mentioned, but from the Hook article
it did say the engine runs very load (ie saved weight on a better
muffler) and has no reverse gear(!), saving a bit more weight*. I know
they had a very talented team working on this so I'm sure it all fits
within the rules, but... I have to wonder about the rules/goals that
were established.

The Hook article seconds Mathew's comments on the collaborations formed
between the various teams so I hope good things will come.

*The print version of The Hook includes a short bit from a reporter who
got to go for a spin, but I can't find it on-line. In part it says: "So
what's it like on the road? Well, for now at least, it's noisy. 'We'll
fix that', shouts Kuttner on a drive through town. 'You have to
remember, this is a prototype. It's a race car.' Showing off handling...
the car clung steadily to the road... A turbo boost sent the car
hurtling faster, and braking was smooth and steady. Turning around was
a different story, since the hand-built 6-speed currently has no reverse."

--
Jim Coate
Waynesboro, VA
http://www.FreeRangeElectric.com
http://www.ElectricTractorStore.com

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Discussion Starter #10
Hi Jim,

> has no reverse gear(!), saving a bit more weight*.

I know for a fact that the Edison2 Very Light Car had a reverse gear -- in fact, technically it had 6 reverse gears and 6 forward gears. The reason being that the engine was based on a Yamaha 250cc engine, and they used the 6-speed gearbox (with it's sequential shifting) and they added a reverse gear; so the same ratios were available to backward, as forward.

Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


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Discussion Starter #11
Interesting, and more logical. I haven't been in the car so went with
what the reporter wrote. You may want to take a gander at page 25 and
then have a chat with Ms. Stuart (the writer).

Neil Blanchard wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
>> has no reverse gear(!), saving a bit more weight*.
>
> I know for a fact that the Edison2 Very Light Car had a reverse gear -- in fact, technically it had 6 reverse gears and 6 forward gears. The reason being that the engine was based on a Yamaha 250cc engine, and they used the 6-speed gearbox (with it's sequential shifting) and they added a reverse gear; so the same ratios were available to backward, as forward.
>
> Sincerely, Neil
> http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/
>
>

--
Jim Coate
Waynesboro, VA
http://www.FreeRangeElectric.com
http://www.ElectricTractorStore.com

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