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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEq-GbVcFTA Anyone know who this is and does
it work? Lawrence Rhodes....

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Discussion Starter #4
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> I do not know if anyone who served in the us navy before 1980 and was an aviation electrician is
> on the list :maybe the ATC on the list can confirm ?!! what they told me that they did was empty the acid out clean / flush the inside and refill with new acid , recharge and walla they had a like new battery . so what he is saying is not far from what the ae's told me back in the 70s . and if you think about it if you remove the contaminate . the lead is still there and if the separators are ok then this is feasible . ( ae stands for aviation electricians mate )

This works for Nicad batteries (common on military aircraft), but I
think not for lead acid. With nicad batteries, the electrolyte (actually
a strong base comprising mainly KOH, not an acid) doesn't exchange ions
between the plates; it only exchanges electrons. The material substance
of the plates themselves is therefore not traveling back and forth,
forming dendrites and such over time as it does with lead-acid
batteries. When a lead-acid battery is at the end of its life, it's my
understanding that the lead in the plates has to be physically melted
down and cast into new plates.

Am I mistaken here? Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?


--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #5
You would have to remove the sulfate crystals somehow for really tired
batteries.

> Stephen Paschke

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.

FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> I do not know if anyone who served in the us navy before 1980 and was
an aviation electrician is
> on the list :maybe the ATC on the list can confirm ?!! what they told
me that they did was empty the acid out clean / flush the inside and
refill with new acid , recharge and walla they had a like new battery .
so what he is saying is not far from what the ae's told me back in the
70s . and if you think about it if you remove the contaminate . the lead
is still there and if the separators are ok then this is feasible . ( ae
stands for aviation electricians mate )

This works for Nicad batteries (common on military aircraft), but I
think not for lead acid. With nicad batteries, the electrolyte (actually
a strong base comprising mainly KOH, not an acid) doesn't exchange ions
between the plates; it only exchanges electrons. The material substance
of the plates themselves is therefore not traveling back and forth,
forming dendrites and such over time as it does with lead-acid
batteries. When a lead-acid battery is at the end of its life, it's my
understanding that the lead in the plates has to be physically melted
down and cast into new plates.

Am I mistaken here? Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?


--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]
http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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Discussion Starter #6
that is why they flushed them !!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Paschke, Stephen<mailto:[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.


You would have to remove the sulfate crystals somehow for really tired
batteries.

> Stephen Paschke

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.

FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> I do not know if anyone who served in the us navy before 1980 and was
an aviation electrician is
> on the list :maybe the ATC on the list can confirm ?!! what they told
me that they did was empty the acid out clean / flush the inside and
refill with new acid , recharge and walla they had a like new battery
so what he is saying is not far from what the ae's told me back in the
70s . and if you think about it if you remove the contaminate . the lead
is still there and if the separators are ok then this is feasible . ( ae
stands for aviation electricians mate )

This works for Nicad batteries (common on military aircraft), but I
think not for lead acid. With nicad batteries, the electrolyte (actually
a strong base comprising mainly KOH, not an acid) doesn't exchange ions
between the plates; it only exchanges electrons. The material substance
of the plates themselves is therefore not traveling back and forth,
forming dendrites and such over time as it does with lead-acid
batteries. When a lead-acid battery is at the end of its life, it's my
understanding that the lead in the plates has to be physically melted
down and cast into new plates.

Am I mistaken here? Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?


--
Christopher Robison
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
http://ohmbre.org<http://ohmbre.org/> <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!

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for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and destroy all copies.
You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message, or
the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.

TIAA-CREF
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Discussion Starter #7
When I was working in a battery shop many many years ago, this was common
maintenance on large single cell batteries, which are call jars, not cells.
These were clear jars, where we can slide out the grids.

First you must record what the specific gravity of the electrolyte was in
this jar. You than pull out the grids and submersed them into a large glass
container of distill water, so the plates do not sulfate.

This cleaning container that held distill water had a slight virabration to
shake all the loose plate particles of the grids. It was normal for
batteries that were use for stand by power, was to shake them once in a
while.

The jars are then clean out, sometimes new porous plastic grid seperators
were slide in which overlap the existing one and than push in the new one
while the old one comes out. You keep doing this until a short is remove
from the cell.

We then install the grids back into the jar, and replace the H2SO4 with the
exact same specific gravity acid you remove.

This type of battery which uses jars, can still be bought today. Some of
them are design for electric vehicle use. Exide makes these units that get
up to 4000 AH. These units are call Exide Tudor Batteries.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paschke, Stephen" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.


> You would have to remove the sulfate crystals somehow for really tired
> batteries.
>
> > Stephen Paschke
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Robison
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 1:31 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.
>
>
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> > I do not know if anyone who served in the us navy before 1980 and was
> an aviation electrician is
> > on the list :maybe the ATC on the list can confirm ?!! what they told
> me that they did was empty the acid out clean / flush the inside and
> refill with new acid , recharge and walla they had a like new battery .
> so what he is saying is not far from what the ae's told me back in the
> 70s . and if you think about it if you remove the contaminate . the lead
> is still there and if the separators are ok then this is feasible . ( ae
> stands for aviation electricians mate )
>
> This works for Nicad batteries (common on military aircraft), but I
> think not for lead acid. With nicad batteries, the electrolyte (actually
> a strong base comprising mainly KOH, not an acid) doesn't exchange ions
> between the plates; it only exchanges electrons. The material substance
> of the plates themselves is therefore not traveling back and forth,
> forming dendrites and such over time as it does with lead-acid
> batteries. When a lead-acid battery is at the end of its life, it's my
> understanding that the lead in the plates has to be physically melted
> down and cast into new plates.
>
> Am I mistaken here? Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
> batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?
>
>
> --
> Christopher Robison
> [email protected]
> http://ohmbre.org <-- 1999 Isuzu Hombre + Z2K + Warp13!
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> ********************************************************************************************
> This message, including any attachments, contains confidential information
> intended
> for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are
> not the intended
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately by reply e-mail and
> destroy all copies.
> You are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, or distribution of
> this message, or
> the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited.
>
> TIAA-CREF
> ********************************************************************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #8
I would think you would want to charge them hard first to break as much of the sulphate lose from the plates. Then flush them and refill with electrolyte. If you drain them when they are dead all you are dumping out basically is water, and the sulphate sticks to the plates. But as has been said several times on this list there is probably a lot of active material that will come out when doing this. I'm not sure it would add a whole lot more life back to the battery.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: FRED JEANETTE MERTENS <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:07 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> that is why they flushed them !!!!
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paschke, Stephen<mailto:[email protected]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.
>
>
> You would have to remove the sulfate crystals somehow for really
> tired batteries.
>
> > Stephen Paschke
>

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Discussion Starter #9
> Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
> batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?

Depreciated batteries have lower capacity because some of the active
material from the grids is gone. When the battery is charged, the
electrolyte doesn't rise to the full previous specific gravity. The low SG
is the symptom, not the disease.

Replacing the electrolyte often restores some of the apparent capacity.
However, the active material can't be replaced, so the grids now are
overdischarged on each cycle. This accelerates the battery's depreciation.
Thus, the "revival" doesn't last very long.

Bottom line is that you can't really replace lost capacity. It's gone for
good. There are no magic revival methods for worn-out batteries, other than
lifting the cell caps and shoving new batteries under them.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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Discussion Starter #10
I've read that the "Nanopulser" (easily found via Google) is a device that supposedly shakes off the sulfates (or much of them) on cells that aren't otherwise damaged, and revives the battery of much of it's capacity.

Anyone in the group had any experience with it or have heard much about it anecdotally?

Scott


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Discussion Starter #11
Nor can it repair damaged separators or grid.

It seems that it would be difficult to attain the proper specific
gravity. The cells are probably out of balance when you dumped it. You
add "fresh" electrolyte and it's not going to be the right specific
gravity to match the plate's state, nor will any amount of charging or
whatnot restore the proper SG. If you charge it fully and then remove
some acid and replace with distilled water, you could lower it to where
it's supposed to be. Don't see any way to raise it if it's not high
enough but I think fresh electrolyte's probably as high as you want to go.

Danny

David Roden wrote:

>>Are there any conditions in which lead-acid
>>batteries can be revived just by flushing and replacing the acid?
>>
>>
>
>Depreciated batteries have lower capacity because some of the active
>material from the grids is gone. When the battery is charged, the
>electrolyte doesn't rise to the full previous specific gravity. The low SG
>is the symptom, not the disease.
>
>Replacing the electrolyte often restores some of the apparent capacity.
>However, the active material can't be replaced, so the grids now are
>overdischarged on each cycle. This accelerates the battery's depreciation.
>Thus, the "revival" doesn't last very long.
>
>Bottom line is that you can't really replace lost capacity. It's gone for
>good. There are no magic revival methods for worn-out batteries, other than
>lifting the cell caps and shoving new batteries under them.
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EV List Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
>or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
>To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
>the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
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>
>

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Discussion Starter #12
do you think they are use sonic cleaners ?
----- Original Message -----
From: S Collins<mailto:[email protected]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.


I've read that the "Nanopulser" (easily found via Google) is a device that supposedly shakes off the sulfates (or much of them) on cells that aren't otherwise damaged, and revives the battery of much of it's capacity.

Anyone in the group had any experience with it or have heard much about it anecdotally?

Scott


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Discussion Starter #13
> I've read that the "Nanopulser" (easily found via Google) is a device
> that supposedly shakes off the sulfates (or much of them) on cells
> that aren't otherwise damaged, and revives the battery of much of
> it's capacity.
>
> Anyone in the group had any experience with it or have heard much
> about it anecdotally?

I am *very* skeptical of all of the magic miracle battery rejevator
schemes. I've tested a bunch of them, and none of them produce any more
benefit than simple cleaning, watering, and properly charge/discharge
cycling the battery alone won't accomplish.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #14
I met a old geezer a old guy at a caf=E9 that it was his job to shake stand=
by =

power batteries. If you let batteries set only on float charge or =

maintainers, the heavy acid will go to the bottom of the cell and the weake=
r =

solution goes to the top.

He said, driving over the rough roads we have here, will do the job in a EV=
. =

Here they press in color rocks into the asphalt which gives you a rumble =

type of ride.

They also had cadmium electrolyte lead acid batteries made by Exide that th=
e =

electrolyte color was a purple color you can see through the clear cells. H=
e =

said, these type of batteries has a 12 year warranty on them and many of =

them went over that with out any internal maintenance.

Roland


----- Original Message ----- =

From: "Lee Hart" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.


> > I've read that the "Nanopulser" (easily found via Google) is a device
> > that supposedly shakes off the sulfates (or much of them) on cells
> > that aren't otherwise damaged, and revives the battery of much of
> > it's capacity.
> >
> > Anyone in the group had any experience with it or have heard much
> > about it anecdotally?
>
> I am *very* skeptical of all of the magic miracle battery rejevator
> schemes. I've tested a bunch of them, and none of them produce any more
> benefit than simple cleaning, watering, and properly charge/discharge
> cycling the battery alone won't accomplish.
>
> -- =

> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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Discussion Starter #16
Please remember that it is popular for the tubular lead acid and some
other standby batteries to have a special deep well below the plates and
extra plate material and are often rated for 15 to 25 years of service
(at a trade off of about 1/2 the wh/kg. )

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