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Discussion Starter #1
>From the ET list. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [email protected] cleannewworld
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

Startup Says See You Later, Batteries!
Breakthrough Power Technology Claims to Deliver 500 Miles on 5-Minute Charge
By GRANT SLATER
AUSTIN, Texas -- Aug. 31, 2007-

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3D3547157&page=3D1


Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent office each
year. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders spotted six words
in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the internal combustion
engine.

An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised "technologies for replacement
of electrochemical batteries," meaning a motorist could plug in a car for
five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between Dallas and Houston
without gasoline.

By contrast, some plug-in hybrids on the horizon would require motorists to
charge their cars in a wall outlet overnight and promise only 50 miles of
gasoline-free commute. And the popular hybrids on the road today still
depend heavily on fossil fuels.

"It's a paradigm shift," said Ian Clifford, chief executive of Toronto-based
ZENN Motor Co., which has licensed EEStor's invention. "The Achilles' heel
to the electric car industry has been energy storage. By all rights, this
would make internal combustion engines unnecessary."

Clifford's company bought rights to EEStor's technology in August 2005 and
expects EEStor to start shipping the battery replacement later this year for
use in ZENN Motor's short-range, low-speed vehicles.

The technology also could help invigorate the renewable-energy sector by
providing efficient, lightning-fast storage for solar power, or, on a small
scale, a flash-charge for cell phones and laptops.

Skeptics, though, fear the claims stretch the bounds of existing technology
to the point of alchemy.

"We've been trying to make this type of thing for 20 years and no one has
been able to do it," said Robert Hebner, director of the University of Texas
Center for Electromechanics. "Depending on who you believe, they're at or
beyond the limit of what is possible."

EEStor's secret ingredient is a material sandwiched between thousands of
wafer-thin metal sheets, like a series of foil-and-paper gum wrappers
stacked on top of each other. Charged particles stick to the metal sheets
and move quickly across EEStor's proprietary material.


The result is an ultracapacitor, a battery-like device that stores and
releases energy quickly.

Batteries rely on chemical reactions to store energy but can take hours to
charge and release energy. The simplest capacitors found in computers and
radios hold less energy but can charge or discharge instantly.
Ultracapacitors take the best of both, stacking capacitors to increase
capacity while maintaining the speed of simple capacitors.

Hebner said vehicles require bursts of energy to accelerate, a task better
suited for capacitors than batteries.

"The idea of getting rid of the batteries and putting in capacitors is to
get more power back and get it back faster," Hebner said.

But he said nothing close to EEStor's claim exists today.

For years, EEStor has tried to fly beneath the radar in the competitive
industry for alternative energy, content with a yellow-page listing for an
indiscriminate office building and a handful of cryptic press releases.

Yet the speculation and skepticism have continued, fueled by the company's
original assertion of making batteries obsolete - a claim that still
resonates loudly for a company that rarely speaks, including declining an
interview with The Associated Press.

The deal with ZENN Motor and a $3 million investment by the venture capital
group Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which made big-payoff early bets on
companies like Google Inc. and Amazon.com Inc., hint that EEStor may be on
the edge of a breakthrough technology, a "game changer" as Clifford put it.

ZENN Motor's public reports show that it so far has invested $3.8 million in
and has promised another $1.2 million if the ultracapacitor company meets a
third-party testing standard and then delivers a product.

Clifford said his company consulted experts and did a "tremendous amount of
due diligence" on EEStor's innovation. EEStor's founders have a track
record. Richard D. Weir and Carl Nelson worked on disk-storage technology at
IBM Corp. in the 1990s before forming EEStor in 2001. The two have acquired
dozens of patents over two decades.

Neil Dikeman of Jane Capital Partners, an investor in clean technologies,
said the nearly $7 million investment in EEStor pales compared with other
energy storage endeavors, where investment has averaged $50 million to $100
million.

Yet curiosity is unusually high, Dikeman said, thanks to the investment by a
prominent venture capital group and EEStor's secretive nature.

"The EEStor claims are around a process that would be quite revolutionary if
they can make it work," Dikeman said. Previous attempts to improve
ultracapacitors have focused on improving the metal sheets by increasing the
surface area where charges can attach.

EEStor is instead creating better nonconductive material for use between the
metal sheets, using a chemical compound called barium titanate. The question
is whether the company can mass-produce it.

ZENN Motor pays EEStor for passing milestones in the production process, and
chemical researchers say the strength and functionality of this material is
the only thing standing between EEStor and the holy grail of energy-storage
technology.

Joseph Perry and the other researchers he oversees at Georgia Tech have used
the same material to double the amount of energy a capacitor can hold. Perry
says EEstor seems to be claiming an improvement of more than 400-fold, yet
increasing a capacitor's retention ability often results in decreased
strength of the materials.

"They're not saying a lot about how they're making these things," Perry
said. "With these materials (described in the patent), that is a challenging
process to carry out in a defect-free fashion."

Perry is not alone in his doubts. An ultracapacitor industry leader, Maxwell
Technologies Inc., has kept a wary eye on EEStor's claims and offers a
laundry list of things that could go wrong.

Among other things, the ultracapacitors described in EEStor's patent operate
at extremely high voltage, 10 times greater than those Maxwell manufactures,
and won't work with regular wall outlets, said Maxwell spokesman Mike Sund.
He said capacitors could crack while bouncing down the road, or slowly
discharge after a dayslong stint in the airport parking lot, leaving the
driver stranded.

Until EEStor produces a final product, Perry said he joins energy
professionals and enthusiasts alike in waiting to see if the company can own
up to its six-word promise and banish the battery to recycling bins around
the world.

"I am skeptical but I'd be very happy to be proved wrong," Perry said.



Copyright =A9 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures

Messages in this topic (1)

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Discussion Starter #2
I'd like to see a line drawn representing it's rate of discharge.
Because I doubt it's linear in the sense it goes from 3500 V to 0 like
this: \ Or even less of an angle. It might be flat then drop off
suddenly and rapidly at some point? Isn't that how capacitors usually
discharge?

Any progress on the 3500 V Zilla Otmar? ;) Still at 2,000 amps or so?

How hard is it going to be to make a controller of sorts for this 3500 V device?

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Discussion Starter #3
My favorite part:

"a motorist could plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles
roundtrip between Dallas and Houston
without gasoline."

Let's see, 500 miles in an NEV...
How about Dallas to Houston in a LSV...

> Startup Says See You Later, Batteries!
> Breakthrough Power Technology Claims to Deliver 500 Miles on 5-Minute
> Charge
> By GRANT SLATER
> AUSTIN, Texas -- Aug. 31, 2007-
>http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3547157&page=1



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Discussion Starter #4
Well yeah if you can hook straight up to the feeder lines coming out of
a nuclear power plant, maybe a 5 min change could happen with enough
cooling.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: Adrian DeLeon <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 2:34 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zenn Says See You Later, Batteries!
To: [email protected]

> My favorite part:
>
> "a motorist could plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500
> miles
> roundtrip between Dallas and Houston
> without gasoline."
>
> Let's see, 500 miles in an NEV...
> How about Dallas to Houston in a LSV...
>
> > Startup Says See You Later, Batteries!
> > Breakthrough Power Technology Claims to Deliver 500 Miles on 5-
> Minute
> > Charge
> > By GRANT SLATER
> > AUSTIN, Texas -- Aug. 31, 2007-
> >http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3547157&page=1
>
>

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Discussion Starter #5
Old story by now, search the archives.
EEStor has nothing to prove their claims yet, but neither is there any
evidence that they will not be able to deliver something useful.

They've made some remarkable ultracaps in the past IIRC, not useful for
powering an EV but still quite a remarkable advancement suggesting they
do indeed have a cutting edge technology base there.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 12:08 pm
Subject: [EVDL] Zenn Says See You Later, Batteries!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>,
[email protected], [email protected]

> >From the ET list. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [email protected] =

> cleannewworld Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))
> =

> Startup Says See You Later, Batteries!
> Breakthrough Power Technology Claims to Deliver 500 Miles on 5-
> Minute Charge
> By GRANT SLATER
> AUSTIN, Texas -- Aug. 31, 2007-
> =

> http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3D3547157&page=3D1
> =

> =

> Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent office =

> eachyear. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders =

> spotted six words
> in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the internal =

> combustionengine.
> =

> An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised "technologies for =

> replacementof electrochemical batteries," meaning a motorist could =

> plug in a car for
> five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between Dallas and Houston
> without gasoline.
> =

> By contrast, some plug-in hybrids on the horizon would require =

> motorists to
> charge their cars in a wall outlet overnight and promise only 50 =

> miles of
> gasoline-free commute. And the popular hybrids on the road today still
> depend heavily on fossil fuels.
> =

> "It's a paradigm shift," said Ian Clifford, chief executive of =

> Toronto-based
> ZENN Motor Co., which has licensed EEStor's invention. "The =

> Achilles' heel
> to the electric car industry has been energy storage. By all =

> rights, this
> would make internal combustion engines unnecessary."
> =

> Clifford's company bought rights to EEStor's technology in August =

> 2005 and
> expects EEStor to start shipping the battery replacement later this =

> year for
> use in ZENN Motor's short-range, low-speed vehicles.
> =

> The technology also could help invigorate the renewable-energy =

> sector by
> providing efficient, lightning-fast storage for solar power, or, on =

> a small
> scale, a flash-charge for cell phones and laptops.
> =

> Skeptics, though, fear the claims stretch the bounds of existing =

> technologyto the point of alchemy.
> =

> "We've been trying to make this type of thing for 20 years and no =

> one has
> been able to do it," said Robert Hebner, director of the University =

> of Texas
> Center for Electromechanics. "Depending on who you believe, they're =

> at or
> beyond the limit of what is possible."
> =

> EEStor's secret ingredient is a material sandwiched between =

> thousands of
> wafer-thin metal sheets, like a series of foil-and-paper gum wrappers
> stacked on top of each other. Charged particles stick to the metal =

> sheetsand move quickly across EEStor's proprietary material.
> =

> =

> The result is an ultracapacitor, a battery-like device that stores and
> releases energy quickly.
> =

> Batteries rely on chemical reactions to store energy but can take =

> hours to
> charge and release energy. The simplest capacitors found in =

> computers and
> radios hold less energy but can charge or discharge instantly.
> Ultracapacitors take the best of both, stacking capacitors to increase
> capacity while maintaining the speed of simple capacitors.
> =

> Hebner said vehicles require bursts of energy to accelerate, a task =

> bettersuited for capacitors than batteries.
> =

> "The idea of getting rid of the batteries and putting in capacitors =

> is to
> get more power back and get it back faster," Hebner said.
> =

> But he said nothing close to EEStor's claim exists today.
> =

> For years, EEStor has tried to fly beneath the radar in the =

> competitiveindustry for alternative energy, content with a yellow-
> page listing for an
> indiscriminate office building and a handful of cryptic press =

> releases.
> Yet the speculation and skepticism have continued, fueled by the =

> company'soriginal assertion of making batteries obsolete - a claim =

> that still
> resonates loudly for a company that rarely speaks, including =

> declining an
> interview with The Associated Press.
> =

> The deal with ZENN Motor and a $3 million investment by the venture =

> capitalgroup Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, which made big-
> payoff early bets on
> companies like Google Inc. and Amazon.com Inc., hint that EEStor =

> may be on
> the edge of a breakthrough technology, a "game changer" as Clifford =

> put it.
> =

> ZENN Motor's public reports show that it so far has invested $3.8 =

> million in
> and has promised another $1.2 million if the ultracapacitor company =

> meets a
> third-party testing standard and then delivers a product.
> =

> Clifford said his company consulted experts and did a "tremendous =

> amount of
> due diligence" on EEStor's innovation. EEStor's founders have a track
> record. Richard D. Weir and Carl Nelson worked on disk-storage =

> technology at
> IBM Corp. in the 1990s before forming EEStor in 2001. The two have =

> acquireddozens of patents over two decades.
> =

> Neil Dikeman of Jane Capital Partners, an investor in clean =

> technologies,said the nearly $7 million investment in EEStor pales =

> compared with other
> energy storage endeavors, where investment has averaged $50 million =

> to $100
> million.
> =

> Yet curiosity is unusually high, Dikeman said, thanks to the =

> investment by a
> prominent venture capital group and EEStor's secretive nature.
> =

> "The EEStor claims are around a process that would be quite =

> revolutionary if
> they can make it work," Dikeman said. Previous attempts to improve
> ultracapacitors have focused on improving the metal sheets by =

> increasing the
> surface area where charges can attach.
> =

> EEStor is instead creating better nonconductive material for use =

> between the
> metal sheets, using a chemical compound called barium titanate. The =

> questionis whether the company can mass-produce it.
> =

> ZENN Motor pays EEStor for passing milestones in the production =

> process, and
> chemical researchers say the strength and functionality of this =

> material is
> the only thing standing between EEStor and the holy grail of energy-
> storagetechnology.
> =

> Joseph Perry and the other researchers he oversees at Georgia Tech =

> have used
> the same material to double the amount of energy a capacitor can =

> hold. Perry
> says EEstor seems to be claiming an improvement of more than 400-
> fold, yet
> increasing a capacitor's retention ability often results in decreased
> strength of the materials.
> =

> "They're not saying a lot about how they're making these things," =

> Perrysaid. "With these materials (described in the patent), that is =

> a challenging
> process to carry out in a defect-free fashion."
> =

> Perry is not alone in his doubts. An ultracapacitor industry =

> leader, Maxwell
> Technologies Inc., has kept a wary eye on EEStor's claims and =

> offers a
> laundry list of things that could go wrong.
> =

> Among other things, the ultracapacitors described in EEStor's =

> patent operate
> at extremely high voltage, 10 times greater than those Maxwell =

> manufactures,and won't work with regular wall outlets, said Maxwell =

> spokesman Mike Sund.
> He said capacitors could crack while bouncing down the road, or slowly
> discharge after a dayslong stint in the airport parking lot, =

> leaving the
> driver stranded.
> =

> Until EEStor produces a final product, Perry said he joins energy
> professionals and enthusiasts alike in waiting to see if the =

> company can own
> up to its six-word promise and banish the battery to recycling bins =

> aroundthe world.
> =

> "I am skeptical but I'd be very happy to be proved wrong," Perry said.
> =

> =

> =

> Copyright =A9 2007 ABC News Internet Ventures
> =

> Messages in this topic (1)
> =

> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =


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Discussion Starter #6
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 1:06 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Zenn Says See You Later, Batteries!


>From the ET list. Lawrence Rhodes.....
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [email protected] cleannewworld
Date: Sun Sep 2, 2007 9:50 am ((PDT))

Startup Says See You Later, Batteries!
Breakthrough Power Technology Claims to Deliver 500 Miles on 5-Minute Charge
By GRANT SLATER
AUSTIN, Texas -- Aug. 31, 2007-

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Story?id=3547157&page=1


Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent office each
year. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders spotted six words
in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the internal combustion
engine.
Hi EVerybody;

Gees! I HOPE so. OK, putting on my Old Fart cap here, been in an' out of
the EV Cause for, lets see, 40 plus years. Boy have I scene lottsa
Badd-eries claims come and go over the years. Still running the goodamn Led
Acids, as was YEARS ago. My pockets arent /or were EVer very deep. Not
wanting to rain on anybodies parade here, but I'll take the Missouri Tag's
statement: "Show Me State" I'm in that state now, without EVer leaving
Connecticut. Oh I hope these guys have something? What a revolution it would
be. Not only cars, but trux, trains, lawnmowers, even CAMERAS that didn't
chomp through C cells like a dead short!

Badd-eries, Crapaciters, I don't care. Get them OUT there BEFORE the oil
Co's violate every trust law, and bury the technoplogy. Look what happened
to "Our" Nmh's Building a better battery is easy enough, getting it to the
American Sheeple will be the issue!

End of Rant

Bob, waiting ....still

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Discussion Starter #7
There isn't any sort of proof for their claims, and they're claiming
some pretty crazy stuff. This is hundreds if not thousands of times
better than current capacitors. It would be like going straight from
lead-acid batteries to something 100x times better than Li-Ion; an
extremely remarkable leap. Besides that, they're extremely secretive,
not answering any questions, leading me to doubt their claims even
further.

That said, I really, really hope they actually can produce these capacitors.

Also, capacitors wouldn't be a swap-out replacement for batteries; a
regular controller like Zilla would absolutely hate capacitors,
because of their discharge cycle.

If you're drawing constant current, the discharge profile of a
capacitor is a line from the max voltage at full charge to 0V at
empty. That means to get full capacity from them, your controller has
to work on any voltage from 3500V to 0V. Of course, you have to choose
some reasonable lower cutoff point; you can't operate all the way down
to 0V. If you choose to cut off at 10% voltage, you only lose 1% of
capacity, so that isn't such a big deal.

Designing electronics/controllers that work at such high voltages is a
big deal, though. Even huge IGBT's usually only go up to 1200 or 2400
volts. In low quantities, IGBTs that are big enough would cost over
$1000 each, making controllers extremely expensive. Designing a
controller for this would be much harder than designing a Curtis or a
Zilla.

Of course, if the capacitors actually existed, the potential benefits
would probably push big companies to develop the required technology,
but economics would probably prevent home EV'ers from getting their
hands on an appropriate controller for quite a while.

-Morgan

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Discussion Starter #8
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> This is hundreds if not thousands of times
> better than current capacitors.
I agree there is reason to be doubtful about EEStor. such devotion to
secrecy is a bad sign of their mentality. but it's not true that what
they claim is that much better than existing caps. from memory it's
something like 20 times better specific energy than Maxwell's super
caps. not thousands or hundreds.
it's not true either that caps are fundamentally problematic to use for
controllers. even if it discharged the voltage linearly that would be ok
for switchmode controllers. the hv zillas can operate in a good range of
voltages as they are. a cap discharges as the squareroot iirc. at half
voltage it's 75% depleted. that's workable. GM's Volt is planned to use
only 50% capacity of its lithiums from 80% charge down to 30%. make no
mistake about it, if they have what they claim and get it to us it would
be a wet dream come true even at the somewhat problematic 3500v. it
would be the rifle headshot at the already mortally wounded ICE. it
would be dead before it hit the ground so to speak.
but given their fantastically stupid devotion to secrecy I would be
quite surprised if it ever panned out. even if they have it, keeping it
in secrecy makes it a 'cia' wet dream to conclude that it would
'destroy' the world econony and it must go.
Ian Clifford has been struck with similar devotion to secrecy it seems.
production is to start now and used in Zenn cars in 2008 yet there's not
even a picture of a prototype EEStor yet. not even a picture. Clifford
told me last year that I should contact him in the spring about doing
business on EEStor products but when I did he used an excuse that
because I dared criticise their policy in a public forum we couldn't
work together. As if he's working with others that didn't. Last year
Zenn told me that there was no doubt the technology was real. they claim
to have visited EEStor and was all smiles. however hard it is to accept
I think they're lying. it's a really bizarre reality we live in.

I would love to be wrong

Dan

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Discussion Starter #9
> I agree there is reason to be doubtful about EEStor. such devotion to
> secrecy is a bad sign of their mentality. but it's not true that what
> they claim is that much better than existing caps. from memory it's
> something like 20 times better specific energy than Maxwell's super
> caps. not thousands or hundreds.

Woah, I didn't realize we had such good caps!

> it's not true either that caps are fundamentally problematic to use for
> controllers. even if it discharged the voltage linearly that would be ok
> for switchmode controllers. the hv zillas can operate in a good range of
> voltages as they are. a cap discharges as the squareroot iirc. at half
> voltage it's 75% depleted. that's workable. GM's Volt is planned to use
> only 50% capacity of its lithiums from 80% charge down to 30%. make no
> mistake about it, if they have what they claim and get it to us it would
> be a wet dream come true even at the somewhat problematic 3500v. it
> would be the rifle headshot at the already mortally wounded ICE. it
> would be dead before it hit the ground so to speak.

I'm not saying it won't work well; I'm just saying that it won't work
well with the technology currently available to home EV'ers. There's
no doubt that if it were available for sale, car makers would snatch
it up and quickly design controllers that work great with its
capacitive discharge curves and high voltages. I just think it would
be a while before you or I could build our own EV to use EEstor caps.
I guess that doesn't matter, though; it's more important that EV's
replace gas cars than that we can make our own EV's with EEstor.

It seems like almost everyone's sentiment is "I don't think it's real,
but I hope it is."

-Morgan LaMoore

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Discussion Starter #10
Maxwell Ultracaps are 5wh/kg, EEStor's proposal is 350wh/kg.
EEStor's 52KW-Hr proposed pack would be 336 lbs and essentially be a
range equivalent of about 4.5 gal of gasoline. There is no reason 2 or
4 could not be used other than cost and weight capacity of the frame.

Traditional controllers would not handle the high voltage in the EEStor
proposal. In fact there are not many readily available transistor
options for high current transistors in this voltage range. IGBTs have
handled up to 6KV, if you try to account for inductive spikes then even
that may not be enough. Even with just a 4KV transistor, there aren't
many readily available ones to build a controller capable of hundreds of
amps. The cost could be astronomical if you could even obtain the
parts. So, it is not a matter of simply modifying an existing design if
the transistor type, gate driver, current limiter, etc need to be
changed. That's entirely a start-again-from-scratch problem.

I doubt this will be possible with the familiar brushed DC motor at all.
The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it, in this case
chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current 3500V pulses.
The inductance of the motor lowers the current, but that does nothing to
change the fact that there's short 3500V pulses being applied across the
commutator bars. I suspect arcing will quickly destroy it. An external
LC filter in the controller could filter it to an average low voltage DC
but when you look at how big the inductor and capacitors need to be it
may not be practical to make a controller that actually lowers the
voltage this way.

Well there are plenty of possible solutions, but it's all beside the
point- EEStor's not available nor proven to be possible. Nor is it
worthwhile to keep analyzing their specs in the patent, there is no
telling if the power/energy per unit mass/volume, or cost will turn out
anything like what they hypothesized initially. It was totally
premature to give specs based on a theory with no physical data to back
it up.

EEStor announced a "milestone" of being able to produce the barium
titaniate powder with the purity required to base a production line on
(whatever that means). They said they'd be providing them for the 2007
ZENN vehicles- well it's Sept and they're still a no-show, AFAIK they
have yet to demonstrate a prototype as well, even a small piece of this
module that weighs only a kg would be FINE proof-of-concept prototype if
it could demonstrate hundreds of W-hr/kg. Easy to verify what it does.

Right now we don't even need to see yet if it can last for an indefinite
number of cycles, operate in a consumer vehicle environment, and can be
made cheap. We just need to see a demonstration of this "hundreds of
wh/kg", that's the key question.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Frederiksen <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 7:49 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zenn Says See You Later, Batteries!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> > This is hundreds if not thousands of times
> > better than current capacitors.
> I agree there is reason to be doubtful about EEStor. such devotion
> to
> secrecy is a bad sign of their mentality. but it's not true that
> what
> they claim is that much better than existing caps. from memory it's
> something like 20 times better specific energy than Maxwell's super
> caps. not thousands or hundreds.
> it's not true either that caps are fundamentally problematic to use
> for
> controllers. even if it discharged the voltage linearly that would
> be ok
> for switchmode controllers. the hv zillas can operate in a good
> range of
> voltages as they are. a cap discharges as the squareroot iirc. at
> half
> voltage it's 75% depleted. that's workable. GM's Volt is planned to
> use
> only 50% capacity of its lithiums from 80% charge down to 30%. make
> no
> mistake about it, if they have what they claim and get it to us it
> would
> be a wet dream come true even at the somewhat problematic 3500v. it
> would be the rifle headshot at the already mortally wounded ICE. it
> would be dead before it hit the ground so to speak.
> but given their fantastically stupid devotion to secrecy I would be
> quite surprised if it ever panned out. even if they have it,
> keeping it
> in secrecy makes it a 'cia' wet dream to conclude that it would
> 'destroy' the world econony and it must go.
> Ian Clifford has been struck with similar devotion to secrecy it
> seems.
> production is to start now and used in Zenn cars in 2008 yet
> there's not
> even a picture of a prototype EEStor yet. not even a picture.
> Clifford
> told me last year that I should contact him in the spring about
> doing
> business on EEStor products but when I did he used an excuse that
> because I dared criticise their policy in a public forum we
> couldn't
> work together. As if he's working with others that didn't. Last
> year
> Zenn told me that there was no doubt the technology was real. they
> claim
> to have visited EEStor and was all smiles. however hard it is to
> accept
> I think they're lying. it's a really bizarre reality we live in.
>
> I would love to be wrong
>
> Dan
>
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Discussion Starter #11
--- [email protected] wrote:

I doubt this will be possible with the familiar
brushed DC motor at all.
The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it,
in this case
chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current
3500V pulses.
The inductance of the motor lowers the current, but
that does nothing to
change the fact that there's short 3500V pulses being
applied across the
commutator bars.
-----------------------------

The solution is simple. Just put a BIG variac in with
a motor which slowly turns it up so that you get a
constant voltage out ;)




David D. Nelson
[email protected]



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Discussion Starter #12
> --- [email protected] wrote:
> I doubt this will be possible with the familiar
> brushed DC motor at all.
> The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it,
> in this case
> chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current
> 3500V pulses.
> The inductance of the motor lowers the current, but
> that does nothing to
> change the fact that there's short 3500V pulses being
> applied across the
> commutator bars.

No. The pulses are just very high voltage, not high current; the
pulses' current is the same as the motor's current. The inductance
smooths out the current.

If you treat the inductance as a separate inductor, it lowers the
voltage seen by the motor (resistance and back emf), but because the
inductance is part of the motor, the motor sees each voltage spike.

> --- David D. Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> The solution is simple. Just put a BIG variac in with
> a motor which slowly turns it up so that you get a
> constant voltage out ;)

Variacs are for AC power, not DC. Also, that seems like a really
inefficient/lossy/expensive system.

However, a huge inductor with at least 10 times the inductance of the
motor might work (in series with the motor). With 10 times the
inductance, the motor would only experience 10% of the voltage spike;
the inductor would deal with the rest of the voltage swing. You don't
even need the capacitor (of an LC filter); the car's/motor's
mechanical inertia takes care of that part for you. The inductor will
be somewhat expensive, though, and cores that big aren't
mass-produced.

-Morgan

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Discussion Starter #13
> However, a huge inductor with at least 10 times the inductance of the
> motor might work (in series with the motor). With 10 times the
> inductance, the motor would only experience 10% of the voltage spike;
> the inductor would deal with the rest of the voltage swing. You don't
> even need the capacitor (of an LC filter); the car's/motor's
> mechanical inertia takes care of that part for you. The inductor will
> be somewhat expensive, though, and cores that big aren't
> mass-produced.

Oh, one other problem with my inductor idea: with more inductance,
you'd have even worse problems with voltage spike when you switch the
transistor. You'd need some huge snubber caps to compensate.

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Discussion Starter #14
--- Morgan LaMoore <[email protected]> wrote:

> > --- David D. Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > The solution is simple. Just put a BIG variac in
> with
> > a motor which slowly turns it up so that you get a
> > constant voltage out ;)
>
> Variacs are for AC power, not DC. Also, that seems
> like a really
> inefficient/lossy/expensive system.

Hence the ;) at the end of the line. <g>


David D. Nelson
[email protected]



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Discussion Starter #15
> > Variacs are for AC power, not DC. Also, that seems
> > like a really
> > inefficient/lossy/expensive system.
>
> Hence the ;) at the end of the line. <g>
>

Oops, sorry for missing that.

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Discussion Starter #16
A transformer is certainly one solution, even an autotransformer like a
variac. The only thing is that like you say it'd need to be a BIG
variac. Transformer windings capable of hundreds of amps is a huge
amount of copper. A core capable of tens of kw is huge too. Well we
could up the freq (we still need HV transistors for an inverter for the
Primary side) but skin effect limits on wire diameter, leakage, and core
losses also increase.

But yeah this illustrates the different thinking necessary when the
controller's task changes this much.

Danny

----- Original Message -----
From: "David D. Nelson" <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, September 3, 2007 10:30 pm
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zenn Says See You Later, Batteries!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>

>
> --- [email protected] wrote:
>
> I doubt this will be possible with the familiar
> brushed DC motor at all.
> The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it,
> in this case
> chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current
> 3500V pulses.
> The inductance of the motor lowers the current, but
> that does nothing to
> change the fact that there's short 3500V pulses being
> applied across the
> commutator bars.
> -----------------------------
>
> The solution is simple. Just put a BIG variac in with
> a motor which slowly turns it up so that you get a
> constant voltage out ;)
>
>
>
>
> David D. Nelson
> [email protected]
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from
> someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433
>
> _______________________________________________
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> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
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Discussion Starter #17
Just saying, you need to deliver 200A @ 100V to a motor, that's under 6A
average current @ 3500V but in reality the controller's transistors will
need to switch pulses of 200A, 3500V @ about 3% duty cycle. So the
transistors need to be capable of peak currents of 200A, although the
average still needs to be only 6A.

The inductance of the motor may not be enough to smooth out the current
here. In fact with that low of a duty I'm pretty sure it won't be
enough. An inductor's current changes in proportion to voltage, so
current will change real fast during that 3% on-time. Of course it has
to, 97% of the time it's running on the energy stored in the magnetic
field alone and current will decay quite a bit over all that time unless
you lower the period (raise the switching freq).

In regards to an LC filter output stage for the controller:
The inductance won't make an additional voltage spike because the
flyback diode takes care of that. But what I think WILL happen is in a
DC motor, the brief period between contacts on the commutator will
result in an intense arc as the load is removed. By its nature this
high voltage spike is in the same direction as the motor's normal
voltage so you can't catch it with a diode. A cap can moderate it but a
cap stage with hundreds of amps of ripple rating @ high voltage is
really really expensive as well as large and failure-prone.

Danny

Morgan LaMoore wrote:

>>--- [email protected] wrote:
>>I doubt this will be possible with the familiar
>>brushed DC motor at all.
>> The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it,
>>in this case
>>chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current
>>3500V pulses.
>>The inductance of the motor lowers the current, but
>>that does nothing to
>>change the fact that there's short 3500V pulses being
>>applied across the
>>commutator bars.
>>
>>
>
>No. The pulses are just very high voltage, not high current; the
>pulses' current is the same as the motor's current. The inductance
>smooths out the current.
>
>If you treat the inductance as a separate inductor, it lowers the
>voltage seen by the motor (resistance and back emf), but because the
>inductance is part of the motor, the motor sees each voltage spike.
>
>
>
>>--- David D. Nelson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>The solution is simple. Just put a BIG variac in with
>>a motor which slowly turns it up so that you get a
>>constant voltage out ;)
>>
>>
>
>Variacs are for AC power, not DC. Also, that seems like a really
>inefficient/lossy/expensive system.
>
>However, a huge inductor with at least 10 times the inductance of the
>motor might work (in series with the motor). With 10 times the
>inductance, the motor would only experience 10% of the voltage spike;
>the inductor would deal with the rest of the voltage swing. You don't
>even need the capacitor (of an LC filter); the car's/motor's
>mechanical inertia takes care of that part for you. The inductor will
>be somewhat expensive, though, and cores that big aren't
>mass-produced.
>
>-Morgan
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #18
> --- [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> A transformer is certainly one solution, even an autotransformer like a
> variac. The only thing is that like you say it'd need to be a BIG
> variac.

No. Transformers, including autotransformers, only work on AC, not on DC.

You could use a big transformer/variac as a component of a switched
mode power supply, though. You might even be able to use a
"conventional" controller as the primary side (although that would
give it big voltage spikes it isn't designed for, which might put it
into breakdown). But you can't just hook the other side of the
transformer up to a motor, you'll need secondary-side circuitry, and
what results will be a switched mode power supply that contains a
transformer, not just a transformer.

-Morgan

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Discussion Starter #19
[email protected] wrote:
> Maxwell Ultracaps are 5wh/kg, EEStor's proposal is 350wh/kg.

This is why I will doubt EEstor's claims until real samples are
available that can be independently tested.

Very small laboratory samples can achieve very high performance levels
not possible with full-size products. Spiderweb is exceedingly strong;
but you can't make rope out of it. Carbon nanotubes have all sorts of
amazing properties at the submicroscopic level, but they don't translate
into large-scale real-world performance.

So, I suspect EEstor is taking the results at the submicroscopic level,
and simply multiplying them up. I.e. a "capacitor" that consists of a
few molecules of barium titanate with a single atom of metal on opposite
sides for the plates may have an incredible capacitance compared to its
size; but be totally impractical to scale up.

> Traditional controllers would not handle the high voltage in the EEStor
> proposal. In fact there are not many readily available transistor
> options for high current transistors in this voltage range.

Yes; but that's because there is only a tiny market for such parts.
Multi-kilovolt kiloamp SCRs and diodes exist; controllers are built with
them for trains, ships, and other very large electric motors.

> I doubt this will be possible with the familiar brushed DC motor at all.

A series motor's armature doesn't see the full pack voltage; only its
field does. The insulation on the field winding could be considerably
improved; it is a straightforward problem. We already have plenty of
examples of DC motors that run on 400v or more.

> The PWM does not lower the voltage, it only chops it, in this case
> chops it into very short (like <3% duty!) high current 3500V pulses.

This means that the standard buck converter is not an appropriate
choice. You would use a different topology, optimized for a large
step-down ratio; say 120vdc output for 3500vdc input. That's no
different than a conventional switchmode power supply that converts
350vdc to 12vdc.

> EEStor announced a "milestone" of being able to produce the barium
> titaniate powder with the purity required to base a production line on
> (whatever that means).

Well, barium titanate has been used for at least 20 years to make
capacitors. It is a common ceramic capacitor dielectric, that usually
makes rather cheap poor capacitors.

If EEstor really perfects a way to make good capacitors with barium
titanate, why would they waste their time making battery replacements
for the insignificantly small EV market? Instead, they should take over
the conventional capacitor market, which is already huge and profitable.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #20
[email protected] wrote:
> A transformer is certainly one solution, even an autotransformer like a
> variac. The only thing is that like you say it'd need to be a BIG
> variac. Transformer windings capable of hundreds of amps is a huge
> amount of copper. A core capable of tens of kw is huge too. Well we
> could up the freq (we still need HV transistors for an inverter for the
> Primary side) but skin effect limits on wire diameter, leakage, and core
> losses also increase.
>
> But yeah this illustrates the different thinking necessary when the
> controller's task changes this much.

Right! Be careful about applying conventional solutions to an
unconventional problem. :)

Normal variacs are built for 50-60 Hz operation. That is why they are so
big. There are also 400 Hz variacs for aircraft applications; they are
about 1/5th the size and weight for a given amount of power.

The field coils of a conventional series motor are the inductor for the
PWM controller. Most of these controllers switch at 15-20 KHz. The field
coils for a 20 HP, 100 lbs motor weigh 10-20 lbs.

If you separate the coil from the motor, you can build it for even
higher frequency operation, which reduces the size even more. Switchmode
power supplies routinely operate at 50-150 KHz with no problem.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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