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Discussion Starter #1
Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.

I looked in the EV album and a LOT of people seem to use them. Either we're all dumb or gullible or they do work well. :)

BUT- now that I know about the Brusa, I'm going to investigate that when I build the next EV. :)

Rich

Message: 4Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:52:33 -0600 (GMT-06:00)From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[email protected]>Subject: Re: [EVDL] I have an EV!!!! (And some questions)To: [email protected]:<[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 David and All,Here we go again! Are you referring to the Zivan beating up AGM batteries with no regulators? We are talking about floodies, and I have gotten over 20,000 miles out of T-145's with a Zivan NG3. The floodies required very little water because the final stage current is low, blah, blah, blah. The Zivan DOES need to be setup properly for the pack!Suck Amps,BB
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Discussion Starter #5
David-

It does an equalizing charge every time? If I understood rightly that eq
charging was purposefully overcharging the pack every so often to get
weak cells up to par, then wouldn't an eq charge every time be a bad
thing? Equivalent to just consistently overcharging your pack?

Just wondering, as I'm considering the Zivan for my replacement
charger...

Thanks

Hunter


David Nelson wrote:
> It seems that my Zivan charger does an equalize charge every time. I
> seem to have heard someone else say this too. When I unplug my charger
> after a charge and plug it in again it quickly goes down to drawing
> 300 or so watts at the wall plug and runs at that power for a while.
>
> David Nelson
>
> On 10/1/07, Deanne Mott <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Can the Zivan do an equalization charge? I read the spec but saw
> > nothing about that possibility. When you say you had to "re-plug in"
> > do you mean you just restarted charging, and it charged some more?
> > thx
> >
> > On 10/1/07, Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks Bill, I'm glad you could sum it up so well for me. Seems weird
that it doesn't have some sort of current limiter; even my K&W has that.
I think if I get a Zivan I may leave the K&W in the vehicle, just for
"limp charge" opportunity situations. Plugging into 110 is handy.

Anybody have any thoughts on the Russco chargers?

Thanks again

Hunter

p.s. Sorry to all for igniting the Zivan charger holy wars.

Bill Dube wrote:
> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
>
> Zivan's got the reputation for "beating up" AGMs on the Sparrow. The
> problem was, the Sparrow Zivans were programmed to give the 100% DOD
> finish charge regardless of the actual % DOD. This is what Sparrow
> asked for, and it is what Zivan gave to them.
>
> Normally, the Zivan is programmed to give a finish charge
> duration in proportion to the bulk charge duration. This is why folks
> with the "normal" program notice that their floodies use just a
> little bit of water. If you tell Zivan that you have "normal" AGMs of
> XX Amp-hrs, they will supply you with a program that does na
> excellent job of charging them (with proportional finish charge duration.)
>
> Put on some regs with your AGMs, and all will be fine.
>
> The Zivan has a couple of disadvantages, however. First, you
> have to pick 220 VAC or 120 VAC. They don't make a dual voltage
> charger (last time I checked.) They are also not power factor
> corrected. This can be a problem if you are going to charge from 120
> VAC at work, for example. You just can't suck the full wattage from a
> 20 amp 120 V outlet unless you have power-factor correction. Also,
> you can't easily turn the current down if you have a low-amperage plug-in.
>
> They are great if you plug into your very own 220 volt
> outlet every time, but are not at all good if you must plug in at a
> friend's house or at a restaurant, etc.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 02:14 PM 10/1/2007, you wrote:
> >Can the Zivan do an equalization charge? I read the spec but saw
> >nothing about that possibility. When you say you had to "re-plug in"
> >do you mean you just restarted charging, and it charged some more?
> >thx
> >
> >On 10/1/07, Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to
> > agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and
> > I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on
> > Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences
> > and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once
> > to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
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Discussion Starter #7
I just got my Brusa NLG5 from Metric Mind and even though it is
expensive it sure is flexible- it has every connection you could ever
want plus windows software to make multiple charge profiles for any
chemistry not to mention it runs on variable input voltage. Anyone
looking for a flexible charger should download the manual for a look
see- the build quality is first rate.

M

Bill Dube wrote:

> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
>
> Zivan's got the reputation for "beating up" AGMs on the Sparrow. The
> problem was, the Sparrow Zivans were programmed to give the 100% DOD
> finish charge regardless of the actual % DOD. This is what Sparrow
> asked for, and it is what Zivan gave to them.
>
> Normally, the Zivan is programmed to give a finish charge
> duration in proportion to the bulk charge duration. This is why folks
> with the "normal" program notice that their floodies use just a
> little bit of water. If you tell Zivan that you have "normal" AGMs of
> XX Amp-hrs, they will supply you with a program that does na
> excellent job of charging them (with proportional finish charge
> duration.)
>
> Put on some regs with your AGMs, and all will be fine.
>
> The Zivan has a couple of disadvantages, however. First, you
> have to pick 220 VAC or 120 VAC. They don't make a dual voltage
> charger (last time I checked.) They are also not power factor
> corrected. This can be a problem if you are going to charge from 120
> VAC at work, for example. You just can't suck the full wattage from a
> 20 amp 120 V outlet unless you have power-factor correction. Also,
> you can't easily turn the current down if you have a low-amperage
> plug-in.
>
> They are great if you plug into your very own 220 volt
> outlet every time, but are not at all good if you must plug in at a
> friend's house or at a restaurant, etc.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 02:14 PM 10/1/2007, you wrote:
>> Can the Zivan do an equalization charge? I read the spec but saw
>> nothing about that possibility. When you say you had to "re-plug in"
>> do you mean you just restarted charging, and it charged some more?
>> thx
>>
>> On 10/1/07, Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to
>> agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and
>> I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on
>> Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences
>> and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once
>> to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #8
Hunter,

I believe it does. The finish charge on my 48V flooded pack routinely
hits 64+ V at the very end of the charge. This is high enough that my
controller won't turn on the contactor at this point. It does not just
run for a set amount of time, however. As Bill said it is specifically
programmed for "T-875 48V or equivalent."

I looked at TimK's 914 EV at http://www.914ev.blogspot.com/ and he had
Zivan install a toggle switch so he could reduce the current draw on
his charger to be more opportunity charging friendly. That is an
option you might consider.

David

On 10/1/07, Hunter Cook <[email protected]> wrote:
> David-
>
> It does an equalizing charge every time? If I understood rightly that eq
> charging was purposefully overcharging the pack every so often to get
> weak cells up to par, then wouldn't an eq charge every time be a bad
> thing? Equivalent to just consistently overcharging your pack?
>
> Just wondering, as I'm considering the Zivan for my replacement
> charger...
>
> Thanks
>
> Hunter
>
>
>
David Nelson wrote:
> > It seems that my Zivan charger does an equalize charge every time. I
> > seem to have heard someone else say this too. When I unplug my charger
> > after a charge and plug it in again it quickly goes down to drawing
> > 300 or so watts at the wall plug and runs at that power for a while.
> >
> > David Nelson
> >
> > On 10/1/07, Deanne Mott <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Can the Zivan do an equalization charge? I read the spec but saw
> > > nothing about that possibility. When you say you had to "re-plug in"
> > > do you mean you just restarted charging, and it charged some more?
> > > thx
> > >
> > > On 10/1/07, Richard Acuti <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Not trying to perpetuate an old arguement here but I have to agree. I've been running my Zivan since the end of February and I've only had to add water twice. Every weekend, I get up on Saturday morning and check the batteries for voltage differences and they're usually pretty close. I've had to re-plug in just once to get everything equal. I'm at just about 4,000 miles now.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For subscription options, see
> > > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For subscription options, see
> > http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #9
My understanding is, while Zivan chargers are very programmable,
they are just not *user* programmable, which makes them far less
versatile than they would've been if Zivan would changed this policy.

Sort of buying a radio fixed-tuned to one radio station you
specified at the time of purchase. To listen to something else,
you send radio back to manufacturer to turn the dial for you.
A bit silly.

BRUSA use to make such version for SAFT NiCd after SAFT
twisted BRUSA's arms forcing company to redesign that flavor
of chargers making them not user programmable - insuring that
no warranty claims will come to SAFT due to wrong charger setting.
SAFT specified exact profile and to make sure it will not be
"cracked" asked BRUSA also change the hardware so replacing
firmware chip on crippled charger would not restore functionality
of open version.
That was one time deal, BRUSA didn't like it and disagreed with
such policy but built chargers for SAFT not to loose large contract
with them. Well, at the end these chargers are of very little value
for anything other than those NiCd packs (which are no longer
produced by SAFT by the way). OTOH "normal" user programmable
BRUSA units sell like hot pancakes - thanks for being ready
for any battery that comes along in future.

I'm sure Zivan knows this but doesn't seem to want to learn
a lesson. Oh well, I'm sure they know better how to run
business...

Victor

Bill Dube wrote:
> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
>
> Zivan's got the reputation for "beating up" AGMs on the Sparrow. The
> problem was, the Sparrow Zivans were programmed to give the 100% DOD
> finish charge regardless of the actual % DOD. This is what Sparrow
> asked for, and it is what Zivan gave to them.
>
> Normally, the Zivan is programmed to give a finish charge
> duration in proportion to the bulk charge duration. This is why folks
> with the "normal" program notice that their floodies use just a
> little bit of water. If you tell Zivan that you have "normal" AGMs of
> XX Amp-hrs, they will supply you with a program that does na
> excellent job of charging them (with proportional finish charge duration.)

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Discussion Starter #10
Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
and is not an exact process.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:

> My understanding is, while Zivan chargers are very programmable,
> they are just not *user* programmable, which makes them far less
> versatile than they would've been if Zivan would changed this policy.
>
> Sort of buying a radio fixed-tuned to one radio station you
> specified at the time of purchase. To listen to something else,
> you send radio back to manufacturer to turn the dial for you.
> A bit silly.
>
> BRUSA use to make such version for SAFT NiCd after SAFT
> twisted BRUSA's arms forcing company to redesign that flavor
> of chargers making them not user programmable - insuring that
> no warranty claims will come to SAFT due to wrong charger setting.
> SAFT specified exact profile and to make sure it will not be
> "cracked" asked BRUSA also change the hardware so replacing
> firmware chip on crippled charger would not restore functionality
> of open version.
> That was one time deal, BRUSA didn't like it and disagreed with
> such policy but built chargers for SAFT not to loose large contract
> with them. Well, at the end these chargers are of very little value
> for anything other than those NiCd packs (which are no longer
> produced by SAFT by the way). OTOH "normal" user programmable
> BRUSA units sell like hot pancakes - thanks for being ready
> for any battery that comes along in future.
>
> I'm sure Zivan knows this but doesn't seem to want to learn
> a lesson. Oh well, I'm sure they know better how to run
> business...
>
> Victor
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>> You buy the Zivan with the program burned in for your type and size
>> of battery. They can do the proper charge for any type of battery.
>> However, you must ask for the "proper" program when you buy it.
>>
>> Zivan's got the reputation for "beating up" AGMs on the Sparrow. The
>> problem was, the Sparrow Zivans were programmed to give the 100% DOD
>> finish charge regardless of the actual % DOD. This is what Sparrow
>> asked for, and it is what Zivan gave to them.
>>
>> Normally, the Zivan is programmed to give a finish charge
>> duration in proportion to the bulk charge duration. This is why folks
>> with the "normal" program notice that their floodies use just a
>> little bit of water. If you tell Zivan that you have "normal" AGMs of
>> XX Amp-hrs, they will supply you with a program that does na
>> excellent job of charging them (with proportional finish charge
>> duration.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks to those who provided updates on Zivan. My comments were based on
the experience of a friend a few years ago. He had an earlier model Zivan
(K2, IIRC), so the current models may indeed be improved.

Actually, I wonder about the reports that batteries charged by NG3 chargers
need watering only a couple times a year. Flooded batteries need to gas to
mix the electrolyte and equalization normally causes gassing. Might they
have gone too far the other way?

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Discussion Starter #12
From: David Roden
> Thanks to those who provided updates on Zivan. My comments were based on
> the experience of a friend a few years ago. He had an earlier model Zivan
> (K2, IIRC), so the current models may indeed be improved.

The Zivan chargers are microcomputer controlled, so their charging algorithm is defined by their software. They have lots of different software setups; some intended for floodeds, some for sealed, some with or without temperature probes, etc.

So, the results you get depend heavily on whether the sofware matches your actual batteries. The problems in the past have occurred when the wrong software version was being used. Unfortunately, Zivan does not give the user access to the programming algorith. If it's wrong, "contact your dealer".


--
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Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart-at-earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #13
To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
(or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
(microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.

In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".

It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?

Victor

Mark Dutko wrote:
> Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
> firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
> program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
> and is not an exact process.
>
Victor Tikhonov wrote:

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Discussion Starter #14
Microcontrollers are quite reliable, far more so than a PC system, and
"boot up" and start running the program in milliseconds.
There's no complicated issues on interfacing it with an operating system
(Windows, Linux, etc) because there's no OS. Just code.
Microcontrollers manipute I/O at a very low level, there is a far lower
potential for odd "gotchas" where the controller isn't reading inputs or
assigning outputs the way it thought it was.

Danny

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

>To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
>(or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
>Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
>Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
>(microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
>Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
>
>In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
>software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
>profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
>executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".
>
>It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
>any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?
>
>Victor
>
>Mark Dutko wrote:
>
>
>>Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
>>firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
>>program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
>>and is not an exact process.
>>
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>>
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>

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Discussion Starter #15
Danny-

Yes, all your points about microcontrollers are accurate, due to their
much reduced complexity vs. PC architectures. But I think Victor's point
was that regardless of whether you program your Brusa, etc. with a PC,
it is still actually running the code from firmware via a
microcontroller, and thus should have microcontroller-style
reliability/performance.

Hunter.

Danny Miller wrote:
> Microcontrollers are quite reliable, far more so than a PC system, and
> "boot up" and start running the program in milliseconds.
> There's no complicated issues on interfacing it with an operating system
> (Windows, Linux, etc) because there's no OS. Just code.
> Microcontrollers manipute I/O at a very low level, there is a far lower
> potential for odd "gotchas" where the controller isn't reading inputs or
> assigning outputs the way it thought it was.
>
> Danny
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> >To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
> >(or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
> >Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
> >Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
> >(microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
> >Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
> >
> >In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
> >software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
> >profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
> >executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".
> >
> >It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
> >any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >Mark Dutko wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
> >>firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
> >>program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
> >>and is not an exact process.
> >>On Oct 1, 2007, at 6:21 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >For subscription options, see
> >http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #16
I interpreted Mark's statement a little differently -- I think he was
stating that the Zivan sellers have claimed that the PC software used
to program the chargers wasn't as reliable -- In other words, wasn't
up to being placed in the hands of an end user.

Of course, that is just my interpretation, and not much more than an
empty justification ... Zivan doesn't let end users program the
chargers because they want to capitalize on the additional revenue
stream of servicing / reprogramming the chargers. I'm sure someone at
the company looked at resell values of chargers like Brusa's as well,
and decided (right or wrong) that the high level of programmability
might hurt future sales of new chargers, too.

I'm not sure that either argument is sound -- after all, if you
provide the better product from day one you'll attract more customers.
And just because I can go out and buy any used charger to reprogram
for my batteries doesn't mean I'll never buy a new one -- I'm more
likely to go back and buy a new product from a company if I've used an
old product in the past and been happy with it. Unfortunately, it's
near impossible to argue with a company who sees what they are doing
as being in their best financial interest.

Ben

On 10/2/07, Victor Tikhonov <[email protected]> wrote:
> To clarify that - software is something that is typically stored on hard
> (or floppy or solid state or compact) disk, loads and runs on your PC.
> Example - CD with word processor program or a PC Operating System.
> Firmware is something that is stored and runs directly on silicon
> (microcontroller with internal/external program memory).
> Example - computer BIOS, jet printer head driver, and such.
>
> In case of BRUSA and any other uP controlled charger I'm aware of,
> software (PC) is only connected to it to configure and store desired
> profile in charger's non-volatile memory. Once it's done, charger
> executes this profile without a PC, so essentially runs its "firmware".
>
> It's just user changeable ("flushable") firmware. It's as reliable as
> any other firmware. When was last time your PC's flash BIOS chip failed?
>
> Victor
>
> Mark Dutko wrote:
> > Zivan sellers also claims that the software is not as reliable as the
> > firmware- not so sure about that. Also, their ability to custom
> > program a charger is limited to "tweaking" the few profiles they have
> > and is not an exact process.
> >
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
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Discussion Starter #17
Having reverse engineered an NGx series control board I can tell you that
it's one of the most retarded intelligent chargers you could imagine.

The uController is used as little more than a PLC.

Apart from a slightly dodgy inrush current supressor circuit, the power
stage is a very clean, simple, and conservative design.

I've had a replacement control board design on CAD for ages and may get
around to buidling and testing it sometime. You could drop a daughter board
into the ST6 processor socket and use you favorite flavour of uContoller
instead.


Paul Compton
www.evguru.co.uk
www.batteryvehiclesociety.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named

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Discussion Starter #18
A few additional questions for the group:

1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it improved any
aspect of your charging?

2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never reported
any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the Zivan
specs on electroauto.com.

Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and 144v, whereas
the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That suggests
that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean that he's
undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing the Zivan
by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?

(I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have to buy a
charger and will have to decide between these models.)

3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a charge and
need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan would
not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the charger or
to the pack?

Thanks for any guidance you may have.

Steve Kobb
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #19
Hunter Cook wrote:
> Yes, all your points about microcontrollers are accurate, due to their
> much reduced complexity vs. PC architectures. But I think Victor's point
> was that regardless of whether you program your Brusa, etc. with a PC,
> it is still actually running the code from firmware via a
> microcontroller, and thus should have microcontroller-style
> reliability/performance.

I have the advantage of having designed furnace controllers for many
years with Honeywell and Robertshaw. These controllers have to be
affordable, but also *very* safe -- a mistake can, for example, open a
gas valve without igniting the pilot light first, and thereby blow up
someone's house!

99% of the microcomputers produced are not suitable for such
applications. They are built to be cheap; not good, and have huge
numbers of failure modes that can turn on outputs when they shouldn't be on.

The problem with almost all microcomputer-controlled battery chargers
(and in fact, with almost all microcomputer-controlled consumer
products) is that the designers simply ignored failure modes. He used
the cheapest parts, and wrote his software without regard to failure
modes. If it fails, so what? The customer is expected to throw it out
and buy another one.

The trouble is, a failure in an EV charger causes collateral damage. It
can wreck thousands of dollars worth of batteries! And, many battery
failures can cause further damage or even fires!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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Discussion Starter #20
Hello list ;)

Its also a price question. The Zivan charger is fully isolated and is
cheaper than, say, Brusa. And most folks don't change the battery
configuration often enough to think to deeply about not being able to
're-program' their chargers.

I had some, well, unfortunate experiences with EV stuff made in
Switzerland. My Zivan (NG-3) is doing its work and, AFAIK, its doing it
well.

As usual, just my two cents.

mm.

>
> A few additional questions for the group:
>
> 1. Does anyone use the thermal sensor option? If so, has it improved any
> aspect of your charging?
>
> 2. A friend of mine is using a 115v NG3 on a 156v pack. He's never
> reported
> any problem with this setup. I was surprised, therefore, to see the Zivan
> specs on electroauto.com.
>
> Their table shows that a 115v NG3 is for packs between 96v and 144v,
> whereas
> the 230v model should be used for packs between 96v and 288v. That
> suggests
> that my friend should be using the 230v version. Does that mean that he's
> undercharging his batts or harming them in anyway? Is he stressing the
> Zivan
> by applying it to a pack that is outside the recommended voltage?
>
> (I'm asking because I'm converting a truck to 156v. Soon, I'll have to buy
> a
> charger and will have to decide between these models.)
>
> 3. Hypothetical scenario: Let's say that I'm in the middle of a charge and
> need to use the vehicle for an emergency. In other words, the Zivan would
> not be able to complete its charge cycle because I have to turn it off
> prematurely. What -- if any -- harm would be done, either to the charger
> or
> to the pack?
>
> Thanks for any guidance you may have.
>
> Steve Kobb
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Zivan-vs.-others-tf4550709s25542.html#a12999293
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>


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