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I honestly don't agree with that article at all. I found it extremely biased and uninformed, and I'm a fiscal conservative.
What was uninformed? I read it and found it pretty spot on... If there is any exaggeration, it is Obama. 80% renewable energy and 1 million commercial made EV by 2015. He is smoking crack again.
 

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I saw "Heritage Foundation" which means I don't even have to read it. It, like all the crap they spew, is intellectually flawed and politically biased.
 

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What was uninformed? I read it and found it pretty spot on... If there is any exaggeration, it is Obama. 80% renewable energy and 1 million commercial made EV by 2015. He is smoking crack again.
First of all, it was 80% clean energy by 2035, not 2015, so they got that piece of information wrong. Second, they made a lot of incorrect assumptions about electric cars in this scenario.

I also cant help but notice they rail on government subsidies for EVs and talk of the free market, but conveniently forget about all the money doled out EVERY YEAR for oil subsidies. Not to mention how much is spent with our foreign policy to protect our oil interests.

Typical neo-conservative logic, or as I like to call it, pseudo-conservative. Its also typical ignorance with regards to the performance of electric vehicles.
 

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I saw "Heritage Foundation" which means I don't even have to read it. It, like all the crap they spew, is intellectually flawed and politically biased.
Since virtually nothing they said in the article was political, just basic economics, it's a shame you couldn't be bothered to read it - if even to know your enemy better- before spewing intellectually flawed and politically biased political comments.

:rolleyes:
 

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First of all, it was 80% clean energy by 2035, not 2015, so they got that piece of information wrong.
Neither one is happening, and given how many times EVERY Administration has changed their position I have little doubt that someone is on tape as saying 2015.

Second, they made a lot of incorrect assumptions about electric cars in this scenario.
There were zero assumptions. They stated clearly that blizzards are one fatal flaw in the theory of pushing too quickly for EVs to replace 100% of our vehicles, which is a fact. Many people who spent 6 hours or more trapped in their cars in this recent even would have suffered from extreme exposure when their batteries would have been drained by the heater. Too, there are many other reasons - "unintended consequences" - which is why they concluded (correctly) that the free market is a better mechanism for determining how quickly they should be adopted.

I also cant help but notice they rail on government subsidies for EVs and talk of the free market, but conveniently forget about all the money doled out EVERY YEAR for oil subsidies.
Go read all the other threads on this issue in the Chit Chat section. There are no oil "subsidies;" only political rhetoric CLAIMING there are oil subsidies. What there are is BRIBES to the industry to re-direct their investment in ways the Government prefers. A subsidy is a grant to sustain an industry that cannot make it on it's own. The products of oil companies are taxed far more than almost any other product on the market; it is from this confiscatory taxation that the BRIBES euphemistically called "subsides" by dishonest politicians are funded. However, since you cannot truly be "subsidized" by your own money, like so many other things in Washington it is simply another lie.

Not to mention how much is spent with our foreign policy to protect our oil interests.
Do you have even a fundamental understanding of what our Federal Government was constructed to do? I sincerely recommend that you read the Constitution. Whether I agree or not on HOW our foreign policy money is spent, it is nevertheless one of the few activities our Federal government engages in today for which it was specifically chartered.

However, you should understand that in principle your desire to see foreign expenditures reduced would be a point of agreement between yourself and the Heritage Foundation.

:D
 

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Let them pay through the nose for oil and keep their taliban fueled car. I'll take my chances with electric. It's only a matter time until we have batteries far better than we have now. I happen to agree with the government subsidies of electric vehicles. You will too when you can't afford to buy oil based fuel, your company is getting crushed because of fuel costs and every thing everyone buys goes up in price along with fuel because of the price of oil. It's coming sooner than most think. And the sad thing is, most people are CLUELESS that the worlds oil supplies are being used up faster than we're finding new sources and that new sources that are found are very hard to get, ie BP's deep water drilling, shale deposits etc.

Enough of the ranting. I just can't believe so many people are so uninformed, especially republicans. And I'm far from a liberal.
 

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Let them pay through the nose for oil and keep their taliban fueled car. I'll take my chances with electric. It's only a matter time until we have batteries far better than we have now. I happen to agree with the government subsidies of electric vehicles. You will too when you can't afford to buy oil based fuel, your company is getting crushed because of fuel costs and every thing everyone buys goes up in price along with fuel because of the price of oil. It's coming sooner than most think. And the sad thing is, most people are CLUELESS that the worlds oil supplies are being used up faster than we're finding new sources and that new sources that are found are very hard to get, ie BP's deep water drilling, shale deposits etc.

Enough of the ranting. I just can't believe so many people are so uninformed, especially republicans. And I'm far from a liberal.
I agree with getting the electric car, but you might wish to re-think who it is that is un-informed (or, more precisely, mis-informed). The hardest thing to do is to acknowledge when you have been scammed.

The problem is, no matter how great a ponzi scheme sounds it is still a scam. Free-market people are not the ones uninformed and it is precisely because some people THINK they "know more" that such misinformation persists.

Subsidies ALWAYS cost us MORE in reality than letting the free market handle it. Why? Simple. It adds one or more useless re-distributive steps/layers to the economic process that do not ADD value - therefore, it is simply waste / inefficiency at best and gross corruption at worst.

Every attempt by politicians to convince you otherwise is a scam, intended to fool you into voting for them. With the exception of some VERY short term crisis intervention (e.g. food after a disaster), it has never produced a net positive effect in history and never will. It can't, any more than Perpetual Motion can power your car.
 

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Free market is riding the bus over the cliff.

Gov. intervention is your wife telling you to slow down before the cliff.
You may not like it, but it is good advice.

Plenty of people die in blizzards when their car runs out of gas (or when snow builds up and traps the carbon monoxide). How is that different than a battery running down? Bottom line: CARRY A SLEEPING BAG PEOPLE!

A subsidy is a subsidy even if you call it "research". They don't give me a tax refund to "research" what I am already being paid to do. Also, isn't the bush tax break for folks who bought gas guzzlers really a petroleum subsidy? What about the lagging mpg standards? again, a giveaway. Detroit has well proven that they could make 70+mpg cars 20 years ago. (another subsidy called PNGV -look it up)

To those who say subsidies always cost more, imagine if Carter had been re-elected and the U.S. had gone crazy for "subsidized" solar panels and electric cars. The Iraq war has currently cost $772,494,064,662!! Thats a LOT of solar panels and batteries my friend.
 

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Neither one is happening, and given how many times EVERY Administration has changed their position I have little doubt that someone is on tape as saying 2015.
*Sigh* Sucked into yet another political debate in yet another forum. They were referencing his State of the Union speech, and he clearly stated 2035. I'm not really sure why you would choose to argue this.

There were zero assumptions. They stated clearly that blizzards are one fatal flaw in the theory of pushing too quickly for EVs to replace 100% of our vehicles, which is a fact. Many people who spent 6 hours or more trapped in their cars in this recent even would have suffered from extreme exposure when their batteries would have been drained by the heater. Too, there are many other reasons - "unintended consequences" - which is why they concluded (correctly) that the free market is a better mechanism for determining how quickly they should be adopted.
Extreme exposure? How cold was it exactly in D.C. during this storm? One of the assumptions I was talking about is assuming the heater would need to be on the whole time for the cabin to be warm. It doesn't. You would probably be shocked how little I run my car's heater here in MN, even when its below 0 out. If the car is spending most of those hours sitting still in gridlock, it would probably use A LOT less power than you would think. Nevermind the fact that we are talking about a HIGHLY unusual situation.

Go read all the other threads on this issue in the Chit Chat section. There are no oil "subsidies;" only political rhetoric CLAIMING there are oil subsidies. What there are is BRIBES to the industry to re-direct their investment in ways the Government prefers. A subsidy is a grant to sustain an industry that cannot make it on it's own. The products of oil companies are taxed far more than almost any other product on the market; it is from this confiscatory taxation that the BRIBES euphemistically called "subsides" by dishonest politicians are funded. However, since you cannot truly be "subsidized" by your own money, like so many other things in Washington it is simply another lie.
I've heard similar arguments before, but I can't say I agree. However, such a debate would go WAY beyond the scope of this thread. Also, I just don't care to debate these things on yet another forum.

Do you have even a fundamental understanding of what our Federal Government was constructed to do? I sincerely recommend that you read the Constitution. Whether I agree or not on HOW our foreign policy money is spent, it is nevertheless one of the few activities our Federal government engages in today for which it was specifically chartered.

However, you should understand that in principle your desire to see foreign expenditures reduced would be a point of agreement between yourself and the Heritage Foundation.

:D
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me, considering you don't know the slightest bit about me or my political affiliations. Your assumptions about me are most likely the opposite of what I actually believe. I actually know A LOT more about the Constitution than you seem to think I do. Incidentally, I am of the opinion that waging war without a declaration is actually not constitutional. At the very least, I would say our foreign policy goes against the wishes of the Founding Fathers, and would probably be viewed as imperialistic. However, debating about the constitutionality of the War Powers Act would DEFINITELY be beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm sorry if this seems lame, but don't expect more than a couple sentences out of me in any subsequent posts in this thread. I'm afraid I just don't care to expend the energy required in such debates on forums these days. I debate this stuff enough as a BPOU Chair and Central Committee member for the Olmsted County Republican Party. :)
 

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I don't think most people get it yet.

The comparison in the future will not be EV's versus ICE's. It will be EV's versus walking.

The oil era is coming to an end. My forty mile range EV gets me to work, gets me to the grocery store, and gets me to the girl friends. If I have to go further, it gets me to the park and ride. I am a happy guy.
 

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So oil gets to right off investment losses and depreciation of assets like every other business?, that is not a subsidy.

Aside from that where is the money going to come from to replace the road fuel tax every state and the fed receives from this mystery 1 million EV's. Where is the fed going to get their 1/6 royalty form every barrel of oil produced on federal lands and off shore? We are talking several hundred billion dollars every year oil pays the government, the single largest income the government has. The government will never do with less.
 

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..where is the money going to come from to replace the road fuel tax every state and the fed receives? We are talking several hundred billion dollars every year, the single largest income the government has.
THIS is why no gov. has substantially decreased fuel consumption.

However, it is a very silly question because WE the people pay that money PLUS the hundreds of BILLIONS in profit for the oiligarchy.

It would be MUCH CHEAPER to just pay the road tax without the extra billions in profit and the trillions in WAR spending.

Their propaganda has you thinking you need them... You don't.
 

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*Sigh* Sucked into yet another political debate in yet another forum. They were referencing his State of the Union speech, and he clearly stated 2035. I'm not really sure why you would choose to argue this.
My whole point is that the article was remarkably apolitical given the political nature of the authoring organization. Both sides exaggerate, and most likely, it was a simple typo and not worthy of discussion - the point I was trying to make, if poorly.

Extreme exposure? How cold was it exactly in D.C. during this storm? One of the assumptions I was talking about is assuming the heater would need to be on the whole time for the cabin to be warm. It doesn't. You would probably be shocked how little I run my car's heater here in MN, even when its below 0 out. If the car is spending most of those hours sitting still in gridlock, it would probably use A LOT less power than you would think. Nevermind the fact that we are talking about a HIGHLY unusual situation.
All we are arguing here is whether their analogy was reasonable. I believe it was. Many of those people, not knowing better (some percentage, generally around half, clearly has less than average IQ), would have left their lights and radios and heaters running; run out of juice; panicked, and gotten stuck in a snowdrift and likely died. Thus, irrespective of what conclusions we draw from such an event the article's thesis remains valid - even if they were stretching a bit to use current events to support their position.

I've heard similar arguments before, but I can't say I agree. However, such a debate would go WAY beyond the scope of this thread. Also, I just don't care to debate these things on yet another forum.
I've done a pretty good job, IMHO, about avoiding the political and simply defining a word. If you TARGET a business and take more tax money from it than everyone else, and then turn around and offer to give some of it back if they do something - it isn't a subsidy, it is extortion. Since oil has more and larger targeted taxes than almost any other industry, this can be demonstrated to be the case - rendering arguments otherwise false.

By the way, I'm all in favor of ending all payments to oil companies defined as "subsidies." And, to everyone else. And foreign aid. But all of that is for the Chit Chat section. :D

You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me, considering you don't know the slightest bit about me or my political affiliations. Your assumptions about me are most likely the opposite of what I actually believe. I actually know A LOT more about the Constitution than you seem to think I do. Incidentally, I am of the opinion that waging war without a declaration is actually not constitutional. At the very least, I would say our foreign policy goes against the wishes of the Founding Fathers, and would probably be viewed as imperialistic. However, debating about the constitutionality of the War Powers Act would DEFINITELY be beyond the scope of this thread.

I'm sorry if this seems lame, but don't expect more than a couple sentences out of me in any subsequent posts in this thread. I'm afraid I just don't care to expend the energy required in such debates on forums these days. I debate this stuff enough as a BPOU Chair and Central Committee member for the Olmsted County Republican Party. :)
If I drew a wrong conclusion, it was based on the few words you wrote on this article. Based on that, it appeared that you might find it offensive to be found to have views similar to the Heritage Foundation. However, I personally happen to agree with every position you mention above, and was only pointing out that irrespective of how you or I feel about it that particular expense at least falls under the CATEGORY of things which our government was chartered to do.
 

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THIS is why no gov. has substantially decreased fuel consumption.

However, it is a very silly question because WE the people pay that money PLUS the hundreds of BILLIONS in profit for the oiligarchy.

It would be MUCH CHEAPER to just pay the road tax without the extra billions in profit and the trillions in WAR spending.

Their propaganda has you thinking you need them... You don't.
FYI

Where the money really goes.

Opinions about where best to spend our Federal Budget aside, it is worth pointing out that Military spending, including the War on Terror, is nearly at it's lowest point as a percentage of GDP (thus lowest burden to our citizens, even lower than during many times of "Peace") since WW II.

What is true is that if we do not replace gas taxes with some kind of energy tax, our government will need to either reduce spending even more (90% of gas taxes do NOT go to roads and infrastructure) or raise taxes on other things. Nothing comes from nothing.

Edit - We are moving where there is no HOA, and I do plan on an EV within 5 years whether I build or buy. I also plan on solar energy - and it will chap my backside if they start taxing the sun!
 

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My whole point is that the article was remarkably apolitical given the political nature of the authoring organization. Both sides exaggerate, and most likely, it was a simple typo and not worthy of discussion - the point I was trying to make, if poorly.

All we are arguing here is whether their analogy was reasonable. I believe it was. Many of those people, not knowing better (some percentage, generally around half, clearly has less than average IQ), would have left their lights and radios and heaters running; run out of juice; panicked, and gotten stuck in a snowdrift and likely died. Thus, irrespective of what conclusions we draw from such an event the article's thesis remains valid - even if they were stretching a bit to use current events to support their position.

I've done a pretty good job, IMHO, about avoiding the political and simply defining a word. If you TARGET a business and take more tax money from it than everyone else, and then turn around and offer to give some of it back if they do something - it isn't a subsidy, it is extortion. Since oil has more and larger targeted taxes than almost any other industry, this can be demonstrated to be the case - rendering arguments otherwise false.

By the way, I'm all in favor of ending all payments to oil companies defined as "subsidies." And, to everyone else. And foreign aid. But all of that is for the Chit Chat section. :D

If I drew a wrong conclusion, it was based on the few words you wrote on this article. Based on that, it appeared that you might find it offensive to be found to have views similar to the Heritage Foundation. However, I personally happen to agree with every position you mention above, and was only pointing out that irrespective of how you or I feel about it that particular expense at least falls under the CATEGORY of things which our government was chartered to do.
I live in Minnesota. Many people here keep survival gear in their cars, and personally, I don't drive my EV in the middle of winter. I have an ICE pick-up for cold weather, hauling stuff, or going further the my EV can do.

Right now, EV's aren't for everyone. They may be the future for most people. The fact is, people may not have a choice, and it will take years to adjust to something other then our present oil based economy.

If we really had "free market" oil, it would be a lot more expensive when we factor in the price of the military costs, the damage to the environment, and minus our reserve currency status.
 
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