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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello All,
I live 25 miles NE of Pittsburgh and I am looking for someone capable of automotive grade welding
to construct a space frame to fit a mini subframe into.
I know its cheaper to buy a reverse trike frame and adapt but there are no appropriate basic kits
in existence that seat tandem let alone could be adapted to take the mini front subframe.
Any suggestions would be welcome,
Thank You & a Happy New Year to the Forum
 

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Hi Mac (I assume), something like this?

Markus
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi Mac (I assume), something like this?

Markus
Hello Markus,
Thank You for the link but not quite, it will not look like the mini at all, much more streamlined, enclosed and seating one behind the other with a small wrap around windshield.
Original mini although still a wonderful characterful car is not very aerodynamic at all it's coefficient of drag is 0.5 and even though the new mini today has an increased frontal area its cd is down to 0.3!! amazing what more gradually rounded corners and a couple of body contoured headlamps will achieve.
The only thing mini about my creation will be the subframe, wheels, brakes, suspension, driveshafts, bulkhead and possibly a modified floor pan to get the curving triangle toward the back of the vehicle while keeping the same wheelbase to track width ratio as the proportions lend themselves well to a stable reverse trike
MAC
 

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Hi Mac (I assume), something like this?

Markus
I'm just amazed that there's everything in the world today, including a 3 wheel-ed reverse trike Mini. Who would have thought...
 

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Cw must be worse than the Mini itself.
I think every single aspect of this thing is worse than the original Mini. The combination of a steering wheel and straddle operating position is particularly stupid. It is lighter than a Mini, but one could achieve close to that by just leaving off the hood (bonnet), doors, trunk (boot) lid, windows, heater, etc. of the Mini.

It is amusing that the passenger sits over the rear wheel.

I assume that other than tandem seating and use of a Mini powertrain, this is not what EVMAC70 is planning.
 

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... it will not look like the mini at all, much more streamlined, enclosed and seating one behind the other with a small wrap around windshield.
...
The only thing mini about my creation will be the subframe, wheels, brakes, suspension, driveshafts, bulkhead and possibly a modified floor pan to get the curving triangle toward the back of the vehicle while keeping the same wheelbase to track width ratio as the proportions lend themselves well to a stable reverse trike
But if the rear seat is as far behind the front seat as in a Mini, the rear wheel of the trike will be stuck up the passenger's rear end. Trikes are typically longer than four-wheeled cars, because they can't put the rear wheel as far forward, even before accounting for rear suspension length.

Also, wheelbase to track ratio is a different matter for a trike than for a four-wheeled vehicle. All of the lateral load transfer in a corner is done by the two-wheeled end of a trike, instead of both ends contributing as in a four-wheeler. As a result, properly designed trikes have a relatively wide track. Here's Elio's comment on this:
"The Elio’s wheelbase (the center of the front wheels to the center of the rear wheel) is another important component to our stability. The Elio’s wheelbase is 110,’’ which is comparable to the Toyota Corolla and Hyundai Sonata. Additionally, the Elio’s front wheel track is 66.8’’, which is wider than the average car on the road today. Let’s compare to popular cars on the road today: the Toyota Camry is 63”, the Honda Civic is just under 61” and the Ford Fusion is just under 63”. Both measurements contribute to the Elio’s overall stability."​

Perhaps by keeping the same proportions, you mean both longer in wheelbase and wider in track than a Mini... but then the front suspension and axle shafts won't be usable.

There have been other "reverse" or "tadpole" trikes built with front wheel drive like this. A current one is the Vanderhall, which uses a Chevrolet Cruze powertrain.
 

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Hi Mac,
I agree with your tandem approach, keeping driver and passenger on centreline, to minimize roll on bends. 40 years ago I started on a mini front end trike to be driven by a Vespa 150 cc engine. That old type mini subframe is heavy, but gives you so much mechanically in one piece. I was fortunate in having a Power Station welder to hand. Sorry to say my project got overtaken by events.
Two trikes by the same name but not manufacture in England were the Skorpian, or Scorpian.
The original built and tested was suggested as a track day machine, single seater monocock construction and driven by a Suzuki 750 or 1000 motorcycle engine.The other made it to limited production nicely done bodywork, but side by side seating, driven by a 750 K series motorcycle BMW engine.
Maybe some ideas.
I would like to do a similar ev project, but now the wrong side of 75, with health issues!
I would think a good welder would be easy to find. I have a friend only the wrong side of the pond!
Good luck with it. Joe
 

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Hey I’m in Pittsburgh. I just finished my first EV conversion- tesla large drive unit into a Mercedes 300cd 1980. I did all my own custom welding for motor mounts and frame reinforcement. Depending how involved and what you are looking for I may be able to help. Send me an email- Vegthesystem at gmail
 

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Hi Mac,
Just had a quick scan about, seems everybody wants to call their 3 wheeler Scorpion. But the BMW version I noted was made by Grinall. Joe
 

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I agree with your tandem approach, keeping driver and passenger on centreline, to minimize roll on bends.
The tandem-seating approach works to reduce frontal area (especially with front wheels with cycle fenders), but makes little difference to roll in turns, and no difference to roll in a steady-state turn. It also forces the vehicle to be quite long (because the entire rear suspension and rear wheel must be entirely behind the rear occupant), unless the rear occupant's legs straddle the driver like on a motorcycle or snowmobile.
 

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The tandem-seating approach works to reduce frontal area (especially with front wheels with cycle fenders), but makes little difference to roll in turns, and no difference to roll in a steady-state turn. It also forces the vehicle to be quite long (because the entire rear suspension and rear wheel must be entirely behind the rear occupant), unless the rear occupant's legs straddle the driver like on a motorcycle or snowmobile.
I would say it makes it worse in the turns as the driver and passenger sit a lot higher which makes the Center of mass of the vehicle higher
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I think every single aspect of this thing is worse than the original Mini. The combination of a steering wheel and straddle operating position is particularly stupid. It is lighter than a Mini, but one could achieve close to that by just leaving off the hood (bonnet), doors, trunk (boot) lid, windows, heater, etc. of the Mini.

It is amusing that the passenger sits over the rear wheel.

I assume that other than tandem seating and use of a Mini powertrain, this is not what EVMAC70 is planning.
I think every single aspect of this thing is worse than the original Mini. The combination of a steering wheel and straddle operating position is particularly stupid. It is lighter than a Mini, but one could achieve close to that by just leaving off the hood (bonnet), doors, trunk (boot) lid, windows, heater, etc. of the Mini.

It is amusing that the passenger sits over the rear wheel.

I assume that other than tandem seating and use of a Mini powertrain, this is not what EVMAC70 is planning.
While I thank you Duncan for your contribution I did already find the Scorcher
I have to agree with Brian I'm sorry but I think they called it the scorcher because it burns your eyes to look at it
 

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I would say it makes it worse in the turns as the driver and passenger sit a lot higher which makes the Center of mass of the vehicle higher
That thing from Stimson does place the occupants higher, and logically would require them to lean into turns... just as they would on a snowmobile (on a hard surface) or a BRP Can Am Spyder. But "tandem" does not imply "high" or "straddle seating"; tandem occupants can sit at the same height and in the same way as side-by-side occupants.

I assume that Mac is planning something in the seating and body configuration of (but hopefully better looking than) the Modulo in this collection of three-wheeled wackiness, but with a front engine and front-wheel-drive rather than the rear-drive typical motorcycle adaptation of the Modulo:
Top 10 wild and wacky 3-wheeler classic cars
By the way, this "top 10" list shows two of the three-wheelers which have already been discussed in this thread (Stimson Scorcher and Grinnall Scorpion), plus a Mini-based model retaining the Mini's front (only) bodywork.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I would say it makes it worse in the turns as the driver and passenger sit a lot higher which makes the Center of mass of the vehicle higher
Why do the driver and passenger have to sit higher ? in a tandem seated vehicle ?
 

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Why do the driver and passenger have to sit higher ? in a tandem seated vehicle ?
They normally sit higher as they sit astride the backbone of the vehicle
In a side by side trike they sit inside the "box" and a lot lower
I did a fair amount of concept work before settling on a four wheeled machine for my design
I simply could not make a sensible three wheeler as small as the four wheeler!
Which was NOT what I was expecting
 

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While I thank you Duncan for your contribution I did already find the Scorcher
I have to agree with Brian I'm sorry but I think they called it the scorcher because it burns your eyes to look at it
But so much more FUN!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
But if the rear seat is as far behind the front seat as in a Mini, the rear wheel of the trike will be stuck up the passenger's rear end. Trikes are typically longer than four-wheeled cars, because they can't put the rear wheel as far forward, even before accounting for rear suspension length.

Also, wheelbase to track ratio is a different matter for a trike than for a four-wheeled vehicle. All of the lateral load transfer in a corner is done by the two-wheeled end of a trike, instead of both ends contributing as in a four-wheeler. As a result, properly designed trikes have a relatively wide track. Here's Elio's comment on this:
"The Elio’s wheelbase (the center of the front wheels to the center of the rear wheel) is another important component to our stability. The Elio’s wheelbase is 110,’’ which is comparable to the Toyota Corolla and Hyundai Sonata. Additionally, the Elio’s front wheel track is 66.8’’, which is wider than the average car on the road today. Let’s compare to popular cars on the road today: the Toyota Camry is 63”, the Honda Civic is just under 61” and the Ford Fusion is just under 63”. Both measurements contribute to the Elio’s overall stability."​

Perhaps by keeping the same proportions, you mean both longer in wheelbase and wider in track than a Mini... but then the front suspension and axle shafts won't be usable.

There have been other "reverse" or "tadpole" trikes built with front wheel drive like this. A current one is the Vanderhall, which uses a Chevrolet Cruze powertrain.
Hello Brian, Not sure what your point is, i will explain:
Elio 110" WB to 66.8 TW = ratio of 1.16467
Mini 80" WB to 47.5" TW = ratio of 1.68
so both in terms of ratio of TW to WB will almost be the same. I admit its a smaller triangle drawn from center of each wheel but so long as keep a large percentage of the weight is kept inside of the triangle and COG as low as possible it will remain very stable if weight distribution is kept to 66% of vehicle weight in the first 1/3rd of the wheelbase ( some of this can go in front of the front axle) and 33% of vehicle weight in the remaining 2/3rds of the length of the wheelbase. Now the rear 2/3rds of the wheelbase in a front wheel driven trike puts both driver and passenger in this area of the vehicle so it only possible to get it to meet this criteria with drivers weight alone included in the 1/3rd of the weight in the rear 2/3rds.
When you have a passenger you must accept that the vehicle dynamics will change and live with it, the only countermeasure you can take is have a very wide rear wheel for more sideways grip when cornering but even that is trade off between the grip of the tire vs the weight per square inch on the tire. Its a necessary sacrifice to decrease frontal area and get a lot more mile out of a battery pack
My layout does currently support 65% and 35% weight distribution so with just myself driving it should be very stable indeed.
Now to the single rear wheel, if you look closely at a mini wheel base and where the trailing arm attaches it is possible by sliding the down a little and toward the driver seat to maintain the wheelbase but you do of course reduce the legroom and this may result in legs akimbo for the passenger.
The Vanderhall Edison is a well engineering and all electric front wheel drive revere trike and a really tasty package but it is not enclosed so no good for PA and with that flat front I doubt its CD is very good.
 
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