Group Harrington 1/2 Scale T35 Bugatti- trying to ID components HELP!

4903 Views 41 Replies 5 Participants Last post by Tobyt, 8 mo ago

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · Apr 27, 2021

8

Hello to All from a new EV back-yarder. I have a Group Herrington Electric Junior Car that does not run. A local battery store tried to sort it but failed. They also failed to return the charger that it had with it. I took the car to Canada Electric Vehicles to check out the problem and they reported back that the only item that checked out was the motors. I think that they are dual wheelchair motors but CANEV thought they might be E-Bike motors.

What I wish to accomplish is to understand the present original system and then find an updated Go-Kart electrics to replace it. I am unable to understand the two electronic boards that it has.Hopefully I can make a simpler car for my Granddaughter to drive.
Here are some pics and random thoughts of what we may have......... thanks for your patience.

System has dual electric motors on fixed rear axle. Band brakes at each side at rear. 2 controllers into a mainboard. A pedal throttle up front into a speed control interface? Batteries are long gone as is the original charger. Was a 3 X12V
system 36V motors? 250 wt controllers X2 and key switch 2 position off/on. 12V power to headlamps and horn. Hand operated lever rear brakes. Car weighs in with out batteries at 90KGs (200 lb) I seem to remember from somewhere that top speed was around 20 kmh (13 mph) but not sure on that. What are those boards doing?

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brian_

· #2 · Apr 27, 2021

Interesting

So those are hub motors (with brakes) with 250 W controllers. Using two separate motors avoids the need for a differential, and the motors look like the big drum brakes of a car of the Bugatti's vintage.

The motors and controllers are e-bike stuff, so one of the e-bike enthusiasts here might recognize the components.

When two separate motors are used to drive left and right wheels, the controllers need some sort of coordination. In the Curtis controllers one operates as a master, getting the accelerator pedal signal and telling the slave controller what to do; the master even looks at the steering angle so it knows how much faster the wheel on the outside should be turning than the one on the inside of the turn. The custom electronics in this case presumably provide some form of coordination of the two controller/motor sets.

In some cases a dedicated 12 V battery is used to provide 12 V for the lights, etc., separate from the batteries for the motors, and I have seen listings of this model of Harrington as having two (not three) batteries. In this case, it does look like all three batteries are likely used to provide 36 V (nominally) to the motors, and the transformer on one of the boards might be part of a 36 V to 12 V converter.

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Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #3 · Apr 27, 2021

4

Thanks Brian, that helps break some of it down. I think that it runs 2 batteries behind the seat and 1 just ahead of the smaller board. I have not looked for any steering sensor stuff but will do. So the board with the controller boxes unifies the running (speed) of the two motors as dictated by the throttle and possibly the steering. I will also look to see where the charger port goes to.

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Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 4, 2021

2

Well, the throttle goes to the main (rear) board and in fact, the two boards do not seem connected to each other. The wiring going up front looks to be for the horn. I am unable to see about the steering but I am doubtful until I can get under the front end to be sure. The charger port has a 3 wire plug going to the main board with the controllers on it.
Two shots of the throttle, doesn't seem to have a ground but the car is fiberglass.

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Tobyt

· #5 · Aug 17, 2021

Hi, I have one of these which is working very well, although it is very sensitive to battery deterioration and I think needs a new one now. I am no electrical expert, but if I can help you I will - at least I can see what goes where. Do you have a wiring diagram? If not I will try and find mine.

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #6 · Aug 17, 2021

Hello! That is great as I almost had given up hope of fixing this car. I do not have any documentation for the car and Harrington could not provide anything at all. Sooo many questions to ask you. I do have a supplier of ebike parts here in town but they were no help. I do not know how to wire in the batteries but was thinking of using a separate battery for the lights and horn. Does your car reverse? The switches on the dash are not marked at all. Thanks for taking the time.

Tobyt

· #7 · Aug 17, 2021

2

Hi, it's a pity you are so far away so we will have to do everything by correspondence, but let's start with the wiring diagram which I prized out of Harrington a couple of years ago. It should be attached to this reply along with my diagram to remind me how the batteries were linked together. When the batteries are in, the car gets seriously heavy!!
Hope this can get you started. The problem is that our Bugattis were handbuilt to an amazing quality in the UK. They were very expensive but I doubt whether they they made much profit because of the time and materials it would take to construct one. The company went to Vietnam, where presumably costs were lower, and produced a different but very sophisticated range of children's cars - but stopped making the Bugatti.........Whoever actually made those presumably remained in England, no-one in Vietnam knows anything about them now. To be honest I HAVE NOT FOUND ANYONE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO KNOWS ABOUT THEM, so it's down to us I think. There are very few Bugattis about, but they can command very high prices when they come up for sale, so it is absolutely worth pursuing your restoration. According to my 8 year old grandson they are also enormous fun. I of course cannot get in it.
I have not yet found any dealer in the UK willing to help me with the electricals, but ironically when I needed a charger, the only company who could supply one was in Canada ..... if you need his details let me know.
I will leave you to digest this while I photograph the dashboard - yes it does have reverse, it's one of the switches.

Slope Rectangle Font Parallel Plot

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brian_

· #8 · Aug 17, 2021

Unlimited2002q said:
I do not know how to wire in the batteries but was thinking of using a separate battery for the lights and horn.

So all three batteries are connected in series for 36 V DC, the "Circuit Board Under Seat" appears to convert 36 V DC to 12 V DC for the lights and horn (so they don't need separate battery), and the "Circuit Board Behind seat Back" coordinates the motor controllers and provides them with "ignition" (run), accelerator, and forward/reverse signals.

brian_

· #9 · Aug 17, 2021

Tobyt said:
The problem is that our Bugattis were handbuilt to an amazing quality in the UK. They were very expensive but I doubt whether they they made much profit because of the time and materials it would take to construct one. The company went to Vietnam, where presumably costs were lower, and produced a different but very sophisticated range of children's cars - but stopped making the Bugatti...

That explains why, when I looked into these cars online, I found two distinct generations... and this is the early one.

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #10 · Aug 17, 2021

Wow- I am still reeling from getting a wiring diagram. I am trying to get the car running for my 8 yr old granddaughter! What troubles me is that when I took it to Canada Electric Vehicles they tested each board and component and found nothing good. They theorized that it was improperly charged at one time damaging it all. The motors may still be salvaged but not sure. I will need to purchase 3 new batteries and a charger so please send along that info you had where you obtained your charger . I think that my car has had almost no use, the fellow I got it from had no kids and it sat in his garage with no batteries in it. One of the easiest parts to access is the speed pedal, so I will be needing a test procedure for that. If I break it down to manageable chunks I can accomplish most repairs. Thanks so much for getting in touch.

Brian, I too did a deep dive looking for info but I did not get much out of it. Interesting, this electric (2 models) gave way to gasoline powered cars that you allude to. ?

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brian_

· #11 · Aug 20, 2021

Unlimited2002q said:
Wow- I am still reeling from getting a wiring diagram. I am trying to get the car running for my 8 yr old granddaughter! What troubles me is that when I took it to Canada Electric Vehicles they tested each board and component and found nothing good.

Without a wiring diagram, and given the two custom boards, I wonder if they were able to properly test anything?

Unlimited2002q said:
Brian, I too did a deep dive looking for info but I did not get much out of it. Interesting, this electric (2 models) gave way to gasoline powered cars that you allude to. ?

It has been a while, but I thought there were early and late generations of the electric cars, with the Bugatti body existing only in the early cars. On the other hand, a NewAtlas article describes the new generation as all gas-powered.

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 21, 2021

Yes, the battery shop here in town had a go at it a few years ago and said it would run on the bench but not under load when put on the ground. Who knows how they had it wired as it had no batteries when I took it in. They also "lost" the charger for it. I think I should wire it correctly and try new batts to see what happens!

Functional Artist

· #13 · Aug 21, 2021

I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
...most have just needed fresh batteries

So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
...& go from there

Tobyt

· #14 · Aug 21, 2021

Functional Artist said:
I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
...most have just needed fresh batteries

So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
...& go from there

Functional Artist said:
I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
...most have just needed fresh batteries

So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
...& go from there

Functional Artist said:
I've reserected a few old electric scooters & such
...most have just needed fresh batteries

So, I'd start with (3) new batteries & a matching 36V charger
...& go from there

Tobyt

· #15 · Aug 21, 2021

3 Bits of information

1) promised photo of dashboard

2) I bought my charger on Ebay from a company called Ecyclepart in Oshawa, Ontario. It was called a "Charger 36V 3A Lead Acid XLR Intelligent Advanced technology Automatic". If you search using that phrase it should come up.

3) The batteries I use are Lucas LSLC22-12 AGM/GEL Battery 12V 22AH again bought from Ebay. We had a problem with battery life when we first had the car. None of the e-cycle companies wanted to touch it, but one did say "if you have a problem, start with the batteries." He was right in our case, just one battery lost its charge very quickly, and a new one fixed the problem instantly and dramatically increased the cars speed. Unfortunately their price here has also increased dramatically.

Starting with the batteries is what I would recommend, and I would try and keep it as original as possible. The last one I saw sell went for 10,700 usd at Bonhams and was identical to mine.

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brian_

· #16 · Aug 21, 2021

Tobyt said:
3) The batteries I use are Lucas LSLC22-12 AGM/GEL Battery 12V 22AH...

Those are tiny - our compact mobility scooter uses two batteries of that type and about that size. But then, the car is tiny, so maybe that's all that can fit in the space.

By the way, AGM and gel are two different electrolyte technologies used in "sealed" (or valve-regulated) lead-acid batteries - it's one or the other, not both, but some suppliers may list them together (because they don't care which one it is). This listing shows an actual Lucas LSLC22-12 and describes it as AGM... which is probably what you want rather than gel: Lucas LSLC22-12 BATTERY 12v 22ah Mobility
There are many brands of this size and style of battery.

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #17 · Aug 22, 2021

Thanks so much for the pic and info. I will set about sourcing a charger and new batteries. There are no tie downs in the car that I am aware of for the batteries so I will also need to figure out a way to secure them as well. I will report back on my progress. Even though I am retired the shop is still full of work somehow!

Unlimited2002q

Discussion Starter · #18 · Aug 30, 2021 (Edited)

Tobyt- I have almost gathered the power stuff and will be doing the wiring sort out soon. Can you confirm the single wire that comes off the front (small) board connects to the first terminal of the rear (large) board? Right beside the charger port plug. The wiring diagram shows it as a white wire annotated as going to yellow /black, if you know what I mean

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Tobyt

· #19 · Aug 30, 2021

2

Now the embarassing bit - I am no electrician and I cannot see the exact translation of that wiring diagram to my car, although I can see similarities. While I try and unscramble what goes where, I have attached a photo of my main board and the box of tricks under the seat which may or may not be the other one. Hopefully between us we can work it all out.

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Tobyt

· #20 · Aug 30, 2021

I have looked again and I see two holes in the floor which seem to correspond to the mounting points of that circuit board in your photos. So it seems I am missing that - and instead have that small black box. Does anyone know what that is?

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