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To me, this is the next step:

http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2008/january9/nanowire-010908

Imagine getting 40 mile range from a battery pack that would easily fit in your spare tire compartment, or powerful laptops that easily run all day long on a charge.
That sure got my attention. Nano-technology in lithium batteries. A normal sized car battery with that nano lithium would then hold around 30 times more power than good old lead.
That technology alone would force the lithium battery makers prices right down. And the article said it's not far away from being a reality either. Not just a pipe dream. Can't wait!
 

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That sure got my attention. Nano-technology in lithium batteries. A normal sized car battery with that nano lithium would then hold around 30 times more power than good old lead.
That technology alone would force the lithium battery makers prices right down. And the article said it's not far away from being a reality either. Not just a pipe dream. Can't wait!
Im with you on that Kiwi, at the rate my mustang conversion (12mo so far and many more to go) is going, LA's will be obsolete so ill just go right to lithium (hate to scrap my racks, i just got the welding thing down). BTW i read thru your conversion, awesome job on that !!
 

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As a late response to the original blog, you really can have fast charge (5 mins) at home if you are prepared to pay for it. You would buy a second unit + power converters and the charging cable would operate at 3,000 volts requiring a low current and a thin cable with good insulation. The convertors would step up and down to the operating voltage required for an EV battery. The second unit would trickle charge from the home electric supply over some hours - preferably at cheap off-peak tariffs.

Of course the cost with these batteries might be excessive. Roll on Eestor (if it ever happens).
You could have a 5 minute recharge at home, but why would you want to? One possible reason could be that you are using your EV as a taxi, Then I could see a reason for going home for 5 minutes to recharge. But for most of us the point of a 5 minute recharge is that we could extend the range of our EV beyond the range of a single charge. The advice in the UK is to stop and have a 15 minute rest every 2 hours of driving, which could be an opportunity to charge the car. Most of the time we would charge at home, overnight, when we are not using the car.

Greg
 

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When you think about it, how long does it take to fill a car up with gas? I am guessing somewhere close to 5 min? So I don't see a problem with charging stations operating like gas stations do today. I drove a natural gas van for a few months, that took forever to fill and the range sucked. A 5min recharge and 200 mile range with these batteries would be better than the van I drove.
 

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Everyone needs to factor into the cost payback with the batteries sold to stationary off-grid use when they are no longer usefull for evs.
 

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Toshiba announced Monday in this press release the commercial release of the SCiB (Super Charge Ion Battery). The battery's selling points are that it can recharge to 90% capacity in less than five minutes, it's safe and it has a 10-year lifespan. It can also operate down to -30 celcius (-22F). This means that it would apply well to an Electric Vehicle type application, but is a five minute charge feasible for an EV?

More...
at home a 15 amp 115 Volt supply will give you 1725 Joules/second, therefore for 5 minutes you can supply 1725 X 60 X 5= 517500 Joules
so what good is this to a person with a need for MegaJoules? A lot more than 5 minutes is needed. A car with 10Mj of these batteries still needs almost 97 minutes to recharge. A distinct case of "dangling" the carrot in front of the donkey I think!! Sure it's an improvement on lead acid batts. but not the Holy Grail of batteries.
 

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My 2 cents worth: According to the basic specs for the standard SCiB in the article, it has 4.2Ahr at 24v (100.8 Whr) at 2kg. The quote I've gotten for my EV was 144V 100Ahr (14.4KWhr) at 95kg. The same battery pack in SCiB would therefore be 285kg!! Isn't that a bit heavy for newer technology?
 

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My 2 cents worth: According to the basic specs for the standard SCiB in the article, it has 4.2Ahr at 24v (100.8 Whr) at 2kg. The quote I've gotten for my EV was 144V 100Ahr (14.4KWhr) at 95kg. The same battery pack in SCiB would therefore be 285kg!! Isn't that a bit heavy for newer technology?
The first iteration of lithium titanates are somewhere between NiMH and LifePo4 in the energy density department. It's not really seen as good enough as is for BEVs which is why Toshiba itself is avoiding pushing the batteries into that segment while they work on a next generation of them. However, if DIYers can get their hands on these things, it might be a better value than lead or LifePO4. I mean, if we're talking about a 10 year cycle life MINIMUM, then it might be the only pack you'd ever buy for your conversion.
 

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at home a 15 amp 115 Volt supply will give you 1725 Joules/second, therefore for 5 minutes you can supply 1725 X 60 X 5= 517500 Joules
so what good is this to a person with a need for MegaJoules? A lot more than 5 minutes is needed. A car with 10Mj of these batteries still needs almost 97 minutes to recharge. A distinct case of "dangling" the carrot in front of the donkey I think!! Sure it's an improvement on lead acid batts. but not the Holy Grail of batteries.
Consider 3-phase. 400 volts at 25 amps? do the math...

By your same equation that gives 10kJ/s
*60s = .6MJ
*5min = 3MJ

Still a little out, but a 10MJ charge would only take a little over 15 mins. Seperate your cells into seperate banks, then use 2 charge inputs, halve the time required, comes down to 7 mins, about the time required for me to drop 68L of gas in my car, wash the 'screen, pay and leave. Problem would be heat dissipation, but these are details that technicians can work out

3-phase is pretty common in most workshops (we have it in all ours), and at a small cost would be available at your house.

V2G... plug the car into the house at night when the power cost rate is less and then draw off the vehicle during the day when demand is high, this would help regulate supply demand during a daily cycle. The older analogue power meters do run backwards when power goes the other way, so you would only be charged for the nett usage.

What about parking buildings in town having the ability to supply power to your vehicle while you are at work, or shopping, or whatever, it would probably cost a premimum as the building needs to make money also, but it could be charged in much the same way as the space you are 'renting'.
 

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When you think about it, how long does it take to fill a car up with gas? I am guessing somewhere close to 5 min? So I don't see a problem with charging stations operating like gas stations do today. I drove a natural gas van for a few months, that took forever to fill and the range sucked. A 5min recharge and 200 mile range with these batteries would be better than the van I drove.
I see a problem with it. The power plants can not deliver that much peak power to charge up 6+ vehicles at once at that rate. Practically speaking it can't be done. It will black out the entire city block. It would, at best, be a one-at-a-time deal. You'd have to get in line like an automatic carwash.
 

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sure, perhaps with todays setup, but what about infrastructure in 5-10 years time, as EV's move towards 15 - 20% total vehicles?

And how many will need these charge stations, as most would likely pull off the grid at home at night when the unit cost is cheaper, it'd only be for extended range stuff...
 

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OK, I am new here, but I think you just miss one very important point with the quick recharge option - that is regenerative braking (RB).

At the moment really effective RB systems (like KERS in Formula 1) use super-capacitors.

The limit to use it in normal battery hybrid cars was the current generated by the braking motor, that normal batteries couldn't cope with.

If you take into consideration an in-wheel motor being able to deliver 1000 A in full braking (generator) mode, you will actually seldom need any normal brakes.
Also in stop and go commuter traffic you will have seldom to recharge.
 

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I would like to give my spin on rbgrn's original post that start this thread. Using his Tesla numbers of 4.7 miles/kWh. Let's make a SCiB battery pack that goes 150 miles on a full charge, or 150 * .9 = 135 miles on a 90% charge. That would require 28.73 kWh of energy and give us 2 hours of 70 mph (highway) driving, which is the type of driving you'll be doing in order to really need rapid recharging. In a family of five, someone needs to use the restroom after two hours, so a five plus minute stop every two hours is not a big deal. 28.73 kWh / (5 min/60 min/hr) = 344.76 kW of power over a five minute time period will give us the necessary juice. At 480v, which level 3 recharging is that means we need 344,760 watts / 480v = 718.25 amps. Here's the kicker. Level 3 is not just 480v, it is three phase: (http://planet.betterplace.com/profiles/blogs/electric-charging-stations). That's just one reference, there are plenty of others stating the same fact. Therefore, we get to divide or required amperage requirement into three separate streams of electrons requiring 718.25 / 3 = 240 amps (Rounded up). Based on several sources Wikipedia seems conservative in the AWG ratings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge but given that a 5/0 AWG wire of 0.5165 inches per phase should do the trick. The closest cable I could find is a 4/0 AWG five conductor cable (three power, one neutral, one ground) at http://www.ramcorpwire.com/products.php?catname=Type%20W%20Portable%20Cables&cat=38&pg=5 and the whole cable is 2.55 inches in diameter. Just guessing that 5/0 is thicker than 4/0 by a factor 1.12 for the bare copper I simply factored that toward the whole cable and came up with a single 2.86 inch thick cable that would connect to your car. Several companies show pictures of level 3 chargers with much smaller cables, but they do not specify the amperage they can provide: http://www.avinc.com/media_gallery/images/ev_charging/ Elimination of 1 conductor for the 4/0 cable brings us down to an outer diameter of 2.18 inches or for 5/0 maybe about 2.45 inches.
For the infrastructure issue, you only need these kind of stations on the interstates. And there you can close by produce the energy for wind, solar, geothermal, etc. With single industrial wind turbines being rated at 1.5-5 MW and solar, depending on the type crystalline, thin-film, or thermal: http://solarbythewatt.com/2009/03/09/solar-energy-land-area-efficiency-or-how-much-acres-per-mw-kwp-per-acre/ only requires 4.5-13.5 acres per MW. Add in a battery backup and you have a several MW microgrid: http://www.altairnano.com/profiles/investor/fullpage.asp?f=1&BzID=546&to=cp&Nav=0&LangID=1&s=0&ID=11304 capable of providing power to a multi-pump electric gas station. Where it is possible this microgrid could even be tied into the tradtional grid for greater reliability. This is the future.
 

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I dont think I need a 5 min recharge. One hour should be OK. But not 6-7 hours. As someone pointed out even with gas cars we dont fill the tanks fully (but there one can fill it anytime). So I guess Toshiba's contributions to Li battery technology are: 1) safety (but that already there with LiFePO4), 2) fast recharge (very good, regen efficiency is also improved), 3)power density - may be very much suited to HEV's. 4) Life - 6000 cylcles- theres an improvement- lifetime matches he life of the vehicle - Dont know why we are stuck with lead acid. With this battery I would have to buy a battery only once! I dont think energy density wise its a great improvement (we leave that to LiS batteries). Toyota would do well to replace their NiHM batteries with these LiIon batteries for their Prius PHEV..as would other HEV producers..
 
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