[Woodsmith]

This project has changed direction due to a change in personal circumstances.
The trike will be a 40mph, 10-15 mile range cargo vehicle for running to local jobs instead of a long fast commute.
It has also changed from a low sleek sports body to a forward control (cab over) layout with a cargo bed.

The new thread is here.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=344007&postcount=616



Having had no time at all to work on either the MR2 or the tractor recently I heard that Duxuk has got his reverse trike (Sparky's garage entry) running and legal.

I went over tonight to meet up with him and to have a chat and a play and boy am I hooked!

I had an all too brief drive in it, just up and down a road a couple of times and it is really good fun and with a definate EV grin (though it could have been a grimace against the wind due to not wearing a helmet at speed!).

The construction seems to be no more difficult then my tractor and the MSVA (Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval) inspection seems to be quite straight forward to meet.
I figure that I could build it in my basement, when the tractor is moved outside, and then get it legal and good for local urban driving on the same 48v set up from the tractor but using the 9" motor that I have. I could then move up to 72v or 96v on lead with the option to go straight to LiFeP04. It will cost less to buy lithium for such a light vehicle then it would for the MR2.

I could then sell the MR2 but continue with the 12"motor and MR2 gearbox to make a 4x4 tractor using the diff in the centre to run two Land Rover axles!


Anyway, I heard a couple of days ago that I will be teaching again in September so there will be another paypacket!
So now I can afford to get my bed room suite (16'x14' bedroom with ensuite dressing room, shower room and bathroom complete with chill out space and laundry) done in the house, design and make the furniture for the bedroom, get the tractor running and ready for body work and then start laying out steel for the trike chassis.

 

[toddshotrods]

Lol, you're a true EV addict Woody! I'm going the other way. I sold the D&D motor already, and killed the other street rod project. I am killing the e-bike project as well, and am thinking about selling the 6.7" GE motor. I am considering a small truck for a daily driver, and better tow vehicle for the Inhaler. Trying to get my eggs back in as few vehicles as possible...

So when does this master plan get moving? Why not put the 12" motor in the trike? That would be a great place to do follow up on the art deco theme. I say stick a for sale sign on/list an auction for that MR2, get the tractor finished, and start building the second real Woody EV.

 

[Woodsmith]

Ahhh, 12" motor in a trike!

The motor weighs 114kg, Duxuk's trike weighs 350kg!
To do something similar with the 12" motor wouldn't leave me much to make the chassis with!
The 9" motor only weighs 43kg so that would be a saving of 71kg, that's a whole passenger!

I really do think that I would need to go as light as possible just because I only need to move myself and a small back pack to college and the MR2 would just cost too much to get the 70 mile range.
By my calculation I would expect to need 45x200ah LiFeP04 for the MR2 but only 30x100ah LiFeP04 for the trike. That is a significant saving in the pack cost.

If I was to use the 12" I would be really tempted to put it at the front with a shaft to the rear wheel so that the Art Deco comm end cover was out on display. But wouldn't that look great as the front end of a small tractor?

I still have that Yamaha shaft drive rear wheel to play with too.

 

[Woodsmith]

I did a bit more weighing of parts last night, just for future records and because I was bored watching tractor paint dry.


The shaft drive motor bike wheel I have weighs 28.4kg
The Lada Niva transfer box weighs 27.4kg

In comparison a rear wheel from the tractor weighs 25kg

So if I were to build a trike, as Jim suggested to me, with the 12" motor, driving the motorbike wheel through the transfer box to get two speeds I would be looking at 170kg just in those parts alone!

Now can I build the rest in just 230kg?


Using the 9" motor would bring that down to 99kg, a bit more reasonable I think.

But I think I would be really keen to build under 230kg just to have the option!

 

[toddshotrods]

Why do you need a gear box in a 500lb trike? You're less than half my weight, maybe 20% of White Zombie's... That's a lot of weight removed right there. Of course, you realize I am biased - in favor of seeing an Art Deco Woodsmith reverse trike!

 

[Woodsmith]

Why do you need a gear box in a 500lb trike? You're less than half my weight,

Personally I am probably nearly twice your weight!
Oh, you mean the trike.

You know me and Jim, always searcing for good pulling ratios!

Seriously though it was just a thought that the two speeds of the tbox, 1.2:1 and 2.135:1, would give nice urban and motorway speeds. At 3500rpm I would get 42 and 75mph respectively.
I was also thinking of being able to tow a small trailer, with my tools, to the theatre to save driving the car.

Realistically I wouldn't need gears even if I was using the 7" motor from the tractor. I should have weighed that while it was apart as I could have designed around the 7" and moved one of the other two motors to the tractor.

I have been doing some more weighing (this is going to lead me to therapy!) and in a seated position my own weight distribution is 12.8kg at my feet and 72kg at the seat with the remainder of my 86kg in the back rest. Given that I am going to be a significant proportion of the all up weight I figured that this would be useful.

I also want to get my own weight back down to 75kg where it was a couple of years ago. That is going to be harder work then building the trike.

You know, I was more surprised that the motorbike wheel weighed more then the big wheels I have for the tractor. I guess the aluminium rims I found in the scrap steel rims skip at the scrap yard was my benefit.

 

[Duncan]

Hi Woodsmith

I had to make the direct drive/gearbox decision for my machine - if you end up with a light weight machine you may find the logic useful

Estimate (guess) motor torque
Multiply through transfer ratio and tire diameter to get force at tire contact patch

Compare to vehicle weight on that tire

If the force is above 80% of the weight you will be able to spin the tire
(super stick drag tires will increase the 80%)

I worked out that I should be able to spin the tires in direct drive - so I did not need to go for a lower gear

Top speed - calculate the motor rpm at you required speed - will it blow up?

I calculated my sort-of-seven would spin tires and not blow up at 80 mph - so no need for a gearbox!

 

[Woodsmith]

Thanks Duncan, that is useful to know.

I guess it will depend on what reduction I have to work with. I must check the ratio on that Virago wheel.
It would be nice to be able to just spin the wheel as I will know I have the max torque available. It is also good for showing others that it 'has some grunt'.

I am still dithering over finding the rest of the Virago parts, not knowing which bike the wheel was from, or getting a complete rear swing arm set up in chain or shaft drive from any other bike.
The drive to the wheel will also dictate a lot, chain or shaft. I prefer shaft but will need the whole set up and a means of off setting the drive line or having an angle drive from the motor. Chain is easier to work with, even if I needed a jack shaft.

 

[toddshotrods]

...Chain is easier to work with, even if I needed a jack shaft.

Chains are messy, but the chain-drive setup would probably be a lot lighter. You can always switch to a belt later, or possibly even find a belt drive setup - though experimeting with different ratios would probably be much more limited and/or expensive.

One thing I always hated about shaft-drive motorcycles is they have a jacking effect. When you get in the throttle, the torque reaction lifts the whole bike. They're quiet and maintainence "free", but I find that to be really annoying.

 

[Woodsmith]

I hadn't thought about the shaft jacking the frame up. I should look at a complete rear end set up anyway as the Virago drive train will include the V twin engine in the same casting.

Here are some photos in the newly vacated workshop to tease Jim with!

12" motor, propshaft tunnel under the seat, transfer box behind to off set the dive to the Virago wheel.
Guess who found that the MSVA for trikes allow up to 1000kg!

And with propshaft.

 

[toddshotrods]

This is going to be fun!

I don't know diddly about reverse trike layout and geometry, so I'll need to ask some possibly dumb questions here. First one:

Won't having the motor that far out in front of the axle center line create funny handling dynamics? I understand that weight is needed on the front wheels, but thought it was always better to keep mass inside the axles.

That being said, the component layout you have there offers the opportunity for really sexy bodywork. It's just begging for a few bumps and curves in the right places! A bomber seat would be awesome. You should make up a mock one with some scrap materials or poster board.

That motor is made for this Woody! I hope the 1000kg limit has created a home for it here.

 

[Woodsmith]

The general idea is to try and get 1/3 weight on each wheel so 2/3 1/3 weight distribution.
All that weight up front would need to be balanced by batteries down the sides putting load to the rear end.

Realistically, as much as I would like to go this route I do want to keep it light so I doubt I will use the 12". Even the 9" is a bit big and weighty by conventional light trike practice.

What I should do is get a couple of Agni motors and fit them at the front pivot of the swing arm.
What I would probably do is fit the 9" sideways to drive a chain, with or without jackshaft, to the rear wheel. I am watching a few chain drive rear assemblies to see if they go for much though I could make my own with a chain drive wheel.

 

[toddshotrods]

Oh well, a guy can dream anyway. Hope you don't mind, but I couldn't resist the temptation to share what I see when I look at your pics! Unfortunately the quality of my chicken scratching is worse than usual. As much as I love my graphics pad it's been really bothering my hand, wrist, and arm to use it and I don't want to end up with carpal tunnel. I keep experimenting with revised positioning but it throws off my hand-to-eye-to-screen coordination. I feel like I'm drunk trying to draw.

 

[Woodsmith]

I like that! Thanks!


I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like

I will look at plywood forms and cycle wings at the front end as another option.

 

[toddshotrods]

I like that! Thanks!...

Yup.

...I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like

Exactly! That's actually very close to what I saw - okay, maybe a bit less dramatic. The basic lines and curves, with the motor poking through like that though.

 

[Jimdear2]

I can sorta imagine the front end looking a bit like

I will look at plywood forms and cycle wings at the front end as another option.

Woody,

I always liked the look of those Morgan 3 wheelers with that big honking JAP V twin on the front. Very unique.

Here you have a chance to build a three wheeler Woodsmith with a big honking electric motor on the front. WOW what a statement, forget sanity and practicallity, anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

Jim

 

[toddshotrods]

...forget sanity and practicallity, anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

Jim

Words I have lived by for decades. No wonder the three of us have so much fun around here! Not sure we should be allowed to hang around each other though. We might be bad influences on the "normal" folks who are just trying to get from point A-to-B.

 

[Woodsmith]

Words I have lived by for decades. No wonder the three of us have so much fun around here! Not sure we should be allowed to hang around each other though. We might be bad influences on the "normal" folks who are just trying to get from point A-to-B.

You mean folks who take a perfectly good family car and shove an electric motor in it and a load of lead or lithium are "Normal"?
Well I never!



I need to check on the build and registration regs as well as the battery cost of running over 400kg but it is ever so tempting to go a little mad with that 12" and Tbox.

 

[toddshotrods]

You mean folks who take a perfectly good family car and shove an electric motor in it and a load of lead or lithium are "Normal"?
Well I never!...

They're on the other side of the river from my perspective.

...but it is ever so tempting to go a little mad with that 12" and Tbox.

If there's anything I can to do convince - er, I mean help - you, just let me know!

 

[Woodsmith]

Lol Todd!

I have been thinking of the dash board.

This sort of thing would be good with the retro volt and amp meters.
I am considering the possibility of making a wooden version of the engine turned dash panel using small oyster veneers.

I have been measuring the various component possibilities (read 12" motor and transfer box!) to see how things would actually sit. I'd be nervous of too much dead weight and torque with a very light chassis. I might even look at a wood monocoque again.