Let's Build an Electric Car

Re: LionEV open house

ClintK said:

What's stopping you from starting your own conversion outfit? (This goes back to one of my previous posts...) It seems like you just need to find a reliable decent looking car that is readily available. Build motor mounts and battery boxes by the dozen. Buy the first car and fully convert it exactly how you will the following cars. That is your demo / test drive vehicle. Do the same with a second vehicle minus the batteries (your most expensive part).

After someone test drives your demo car and orders an identical one, you order the fresh batteries, install, and deliver. Repeat.

Probably the biggest thing is not to charge $30k, shoot for under $20k. You'll have to figure out the ideal donor for the market to minimize costs.

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Its not a bad idea. I origionally wanted to build a completely new vehicle that because the power pland and fuel is not my only beef with how cars and trucks are built. At the very least, a conversion would be a good test platform for testing different battery and motor combinations.

I wish it was possible to sell for $20 000 and still have a profit margin, but I just don't see that as being possible yet. At least not with a car (or truck) that has decent performance. However things are changing so fast who knows what will be even a few months from now. The real question is what people are willing to pay for something like that.

Re: LionEV open house

it's not so much about the cost of the conversion as it is about the transparency of the company.tom hanks is hawking e-boxes and they're selling for 50-70k.with videos of their customers on the net.but lionev can't sell a 40k ranger.it's all about appearances.

Re: LionEV open house

Star power can only go so far, just look at what happened (or didn't happen) with the tango even with George Clooney lending a hand.

Truth is AC propulsion is a legend in its own right because of the Tzero and links to the general motors EV1, even if both cars were abandoned in the end. The Tzero is certainly well documented in its capability (speed and range). I hope LionEV can do the same, but if they are in fact just swamped in their own back yard with orders than I could believe that too.

The internet can be a double edged sword. I know that if out humble little railing outfit ever set up a website we would probably have folks from vancouver all the way to LA contacting us. We're not even in the phone book, and have more work that we can handle.

Re: LionEV open house

but you're talking about george clooney......george clooney?sorry but my money is on tom to sell the most! anyways i didnt mean that the star power had anything to do with it,might help,might hurt,who knows.all im saying is ac propulsion is selling conversions.lionev is sitting on them.no car dealer on the planet wants to sit on his stock for 6 months at a time.i know it's only 4 months so far for the rangers in texas.unless you've heard about someone buying one?

Re: LionEV open house

david85 said:

I wish it was possible to sell for $20 000 and still have a profit margin, but I just don't see that as being possible yet. At least not with a car (or truck) that has decent performance. However things are changing so fast who knows what will be even a few months from now. The real question is what people are willing to pay for something like that.

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You can't do a 144V system and still have profit for $20,000, but is there an acceptable car + 96V system? Two "Lightning Bolts" will set you back $6500, motor and controller for a few thousand? If the electrical system is $10k total, then the remaining $10k can be for donor car / labor / profits. I know it's tight, but maybe possible...

Re: LionEV open house

clintK has a point,you know you can get the batteries cheaper if the quality issue is resolved.still waiting on that til their official mourning period is over.but certainly there is a possibility for business here.

did this thread just morph or is it me?

Re: LionEV open house

david85 said:

According to their claims, you can go past 3C but they will self ballance if you stay below 3C. I'm not really sure why you would need much more than 600 amps for the average conversion.

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144v @600 amps gives you how much acceleration 0-60 typically? Seems like it would be kind of anemic.

Re: LionEV open house

that's about 86kw,115hp,is that right?if so i wouldn't call it anemic.

now you done it! put this out there for everyone to chime in!

of course you know this is a major capital raising opportunity.

The other option is to do an open source EV conversion on a really common car so you can bulk buy all the parts... I think they are doing that in denmark or something with a Toyota corolla

OK, this works

So what are we after here?

NEVs?mad:)

What kind of speed do we need?

What kind of range?

There is a wide range of batteries and motors to choose from right now, and the price of lithium at last check (a few days ago) was $0.62 USD per watt/hour. I'm going to see if its possible to do any better, but I already know that thundersky's volume pricing is as low as $0.40 per watt/hour. I know that raises the question of reliability though. Maybe the mythbuster's experience can help us here.

I think the standard requirements that people come here with are for a 60 mile range and 60 mph top speed... thats probably a good starting point if you are going with lithiums. What sort of donor car?

finland is thinking about the toyota corolla jukka jarvinen of FEVT was posting about a bulk parts buy.
thundersky is selling direct for as little 1.30us per amp hour(thats how they list it.) i have to check the minimum amp hour purchase for that.

range needs at least 75- 100 miles
speed needs at least 75 mph

seem right to you? we are talking about a 20k conversion right?

mattW said:

I think the standard requirements that people come here with are for a 60 mile range and 60 mph top speed... thats probably a good starting point if you are going with lithiums. What sort of donor car?

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Agreed, the only time I have to go faster than 60 MPH is if I'm towing a load at 70 MPH for 200 miles.

Right now I am partial to the ford ranger because I know a little about them, they are a tough little truck, and can be easily converted with a wide range of options. Since I am a trades man, it also has some utility use as well. I've seen donors in good working order for anywhere from $8k to $14k used. Better deals may be found in other areas.

But its a bit on the heavy side, and that will put a pinch on performance or cost of conversion.

Any other ideas for donors? (I like where this is going)

Ideally you'd have something like 3 classes, a compact, a family car and a pickup. You could maybe even have a budget LA version or a 100 mile lithium version. But to start of we should probably do whatever would sell the most.

mattW said:

Ideally you'd have something like 3 classes, a compact, a family car and a pickup. You could maybe even have a budget LA version or a 100 mile lithium version. But to start of we should probably do whatever would sell the most.

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OK, so lets say minimum of 4 passengers, range of 60 miles, top speed of 70 MPH for minimum performance for the car (top speed shouldn't be as hard to reach as range).

60 miles at 300Wh/mile is 18kWh, we could do 120V @ ~200Ah or 144V @~170 allowing for peukerts and 80% DOD.

mattW said:

60 miles at 300Wh/mile is 18kWh, we could do 120V @ ~200Ah or 144V @~170 allowing for peukerts and 80% DOD.

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OK, so lets assume $0.62 per watt/hour. That gives us a pack price of $10 998 if we use lithium. I'm not up to date on lead, but I'm guessing it would probably be less than half that.