[Battery Advancement]

Hi! This is my first Post using my new Login, but I am not new here.

Is there anyone out there who can attest to LiPOs lasting for up to 10 years? I know the CALB CAs are that old, and I think Winstons?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[john61ct]

Yes just one decade is I think barely broken in if treated properly, see dozens over 15 years one 18years, and those that get cap tested are well over 90% SoH.

The oldest one still shows as over 100% name plate rating, did not get benchmarked until 7-8 y.o.

But all depends on care parameters, none of these were in a propulsion use case, all House banks where 2C loads are considered abusive, charging usually well under 0.5C.

Top quality maker of course also required of course

Besides those two GBS, Sinopoly, CATL and A123 (now Lithium Werks / Valence / Super B) have proven themselves long-term.

But beware the distribution channels are very dodgy

direct from the maker is best to try to get Grade A or B worst case.

 

[brian_]

I assume that you mean LiFePO4, or LFP. Li-Po is an unrelated term.

 

[john61ct]

LIPO4 can be used for LFP, nothing to do with LiPo form factor

 

[brian_]

LIPO4 can be used for LFP, nothing to do with LiPo form factor

If you're going to leave out the iron (Fe), why not leave out the oxygen as well, and call it LiP? Just kidding... use the standard name.

Li-Po isn't a form factor, it's a reference to the use of a polymer electrolyte.

 

[john61ct]

I agree it's a confusing variant.

LiPo is just a construction / packaging technology, not specifying any one chemistry

is what I meant.

The prismatic format the cells discussed here use includes the hard casing enclosure, but even if metal rather than plastic, they still should get the full endplates + compression rods treatment.

 

[Battery Advancement]

Hi John. Nice to hear, and I am aware of LiPO4 vs LiPO. I usually SAY LiPO, and it must have slipped in the typing.

I have a friend who just pulled 9 year-old CALB CAs out of his Porsche and they were at 80% and perfectly balanced. He is going to write it up for me, as he tested them when first purchased, but it would be good to have similar testimonials from mobility applications. If you know of anyone who has done-so, I would appreciate it, and would even pay them for a well-documented write-up. I used to have a business selling imported off-lease EVs and we established a conversion business, but it was a low-priority, and has not made any money yet. My new business is a stepping-stone to a more ambitious version of the above, but for now I am focusing on golf carts. The market is huge, but there is a fair bit of inertia, and this one bit of information seems to be lacking - I cannot find any real-world data. Graphs, trends, analysis of lifespan based upon calendar aging, temperature, C-rate, DOD are all there and relatively consistent, but there is nothing I can find over 3 years. At sustained C-rates of over 2 (A123 cells), there is a change in the slope of the curve, but even 2000 cycles to 50% would be four times longer than the standard for Trojans. But I'm looking for real-world data. I just missed a sale to a group of 5 golf-courses. Of-course they went with lead-acid - because he said Lithium was "just not proven."

HELP!

If there is anyone in Canada reading this who wants a job, contact me.

 

[Battery Advancement]

Hi. I've just posted on the DIY Solar Forum as well, and even if it is Solar, I would love to read about, or talk to anyone who has LiPO4s approaching 10 years of age or longer. The more information the better.

Jim

 

[john61ct]

Yes propulsion C-rates change the picture a lot, too much variability even within a single use case to get much "objective" hard data.

The problem in NA market is such incredible good value FLA lead units

I know plenty of decade+

and AGM available far superior to what the rest of the world gets

our LFP distribution channels are so immature

even including higher % usable amps

without counting infrastructure costs like BMS relays switches CP chargers balancers etc

you're talking 6-10x the cost of lead!

Very risky when ROI takes multiple decades.

The only compelling factor is longer range vs weight/space taken

even in the boating world, racing is the only case where there is an "economic" argument.

Or maybe fast charging, but golf cars not so much.

 

[john61ct]

Post on Cruisers Forum, Sailboat Owners, other sites with liveaboard cruisers, read Maine Sail's old threads also his web site.

 

[brian_]

... I am aware of LiPO4 vs LiPO. I usually SAY LiPO, and it must have slipped in the typing.

But which do you mean? You seem to be talking about the CALB CA cells which are LiFePO4 (LFP), and not Li-po (polymer electrolyte); LiPO4 still means nothing.

 

[Battery Advancement]

Yes propulsion C-rates change the picture a lot, too much variability even within a single use case to get much "objective" hard data.

The problem in NA market is such incredible good value FLA lead units

I know plenty of decade+

and AGM available far superior to what the rest of the world gets

our LFP distribution channels are so immature

even including higher % usable amps

without counting infrastructure costs like BMS relays switches CP chargers balancers etc

you're talking 6-10x the cost of lead!

Very risky when ROI takes multiple decades.

The only compelling factor is longer range vs weight/space taken

even in the boating world, racing is the only case where there is an "economic" argument.

Or maybe fast charging, but golf cars not so much.

Hi, am interested to know where FLA lasts 10 years, but yeah, a forklift?. I guess it depends upon the application, but apples to apples, Lithium wins for golf carts. Prices may be inflated elsewhere, but I am talking $900 for Trojans, and only $1700 for drop-in ready Lithium which will do the same job (Straight from China, Canadian prices) .

 

[Battery Advancement]

But which do you mean? You seem to be talking about the CALB CA cells which are LiFePO4 (LFP), and not Li-po (polymer electrolyte); LiPO4 still means nothing.

LiFePO4, or FeLiO4P, according to Wikipedia? LFP - maybe I'll use that one. Thanks.

 

[john61ct]

LiPO4 still means nothing.

As stated, many references and vendors use that term

wrongly I agree

on the web, to mean LFP.

As the OP also clearly meant, and admitted it was in error.

None of the vendors discussed so far make the battery types usually referred to by the term LiPo.

They do all make LFP, mostly in prismatic format.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[john61ct]

LFP - maybe I'll use that one.

Yes definitely easiest, and unambiguous.

LiFePO4 is canonical but tedious for normal discussions.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[john61ct]

Hi, am interested to know where FLA lasts 10 years, but yeah, a forklift?

No, House batteries, non propulsion use cases, as I stated where average loads are very low C-rate, peaks of maybe 0.6C, usually well under 0.1C

Avg DoD% kept 40-60%, shallower the better, only deeper in occasional emergency situations.

Charging might be solar, or alternator while traveling, wind or a genset while off grid, rarely over 0.4C rate.

But very reliably getting to 100% Full, as per endAmps spec, at least a few times per week if not every cycle.

Properly broken in and well maintained, preventing any "unexpected events".

I've seen a few hit 15-17 year lifespans even cycled daily, but by then getting below the usual 70% SoH EoL point.

Of course excellent quality FLA to start with, much higher priced than 6V golf car style, but "only" 8-10 years on those.

Certainly not 12V, certainly not automotive channels nor form factors, not Wally's or Costco stuff.

Such quality FLA lasts much much longer than any AGM, also less fussy about precise care factors

Rolls / Surrette being a leading example, big 2V cells if the bank gets big enough.





Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Battery Advancement]

No, House batteries, non propulsion use cases, as I stated where average loads are very low C-rate, peaks of maybe 0.6C, usually well under 0.1C

Avg DoD% kept 40-60%, shallower the better, only deeper in occasional emergency situations.

Charging might be solar, or alternator while traveling, wind or a genset while off grid, rarely over 0.4C rate.

But very reliably getting to 100% Full, as per endAmps spec, at least a few times per week if not every cycle.

Properly broken in and well maintained, preventing any "unexpected events".

I've seen a few hit 15-17 year lifespans even cycled daily, but by then getting below the usual 70% SoH EoL point.

Of course excellent quality FLA to start with, much higher priced than 6V golf car style, but "only" 8-10 years on those.

Certainly not 12V, certainly not automotive channels nor form factors, not Wally's or Costco stuff.

Such quality FLA lasts much much longer than any AGM, also less fussy about precise care factors

Rolls / Surrette being a leading example, big 2V cells if the bank gets big enough.





Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

Hi John,

Thanks! I did not know there was such high-quality stuff. Maybe Kin to the Giant Cells I've seen used in the old-days for land-line backup. All glass, about 18" high, single-cells(?). No-matter to me for my application, but that is some serious lifetime. I look forward to poking-around on here a bit and seeing what else I can learn, after years of absence. Only my memory is not so good anymore - so much new stuff, I really need to stay focused. I do hope to put solar on the Shop this summer though - with batteries, and who-knows, maybe even lead-acid, as they work best in applications such as you describe (and starting cars). It would be a waste to put Lithium in my old '65 Land Rover, but I like running it on gas, as it takes me on long fishing trips. Do you fish?

 

[MattsAwesomeStuff]

I used to have a business selling imported off-lease EVs and we established a conversion business

Are you the Jim who started Go Electric up in Calgary?:

Meet the laid-off oil worker selling used EVs in Calgary

Jim Steil, co-owner of used-EV store GoElectric in Calgary, sells and leases vehicles with all-in pricing and a 90-day buy-back guarantee. His electric vehicles sourced from California were heavily subsidized, which means there’s money to be made on them.

canada.autonews.com

I remember this making the waves here a couple years ago, I actually seem to recall the founder posting here, but maybe I'm mistaken, maybe it was just posted as a news item.

Conversion businesses seem to have been the thing 10 years ago, when there was lots of money to be made, before OEM EVs had a lot of traction. Now that every company is making EVs and prioritizing them, it's less special and less worth the mid-5-figure budgets to pull it off. Still a few around, but most seem to be on the budget end of things, not something you'd make a go of at a shop.

 

[Battery Advancement]

Are you the Jim who started Go Electric up in Calgary?:

Meet the laid-off oil worker selling used EVs in Calgary

Jim Steil, co-owner of used-EV store GoElectric in Calgary, sells and leases vehicles with all-in pricing and a 90-day buy-back guarantee. His electric vehicles sourced from California were heavily subsidized, which means there’s money to be made on them.

canada.autonews.com

I remember this making the waves here a couple years ago, I actually seem to recall the founder posting here, but maybe I'm mistaken, maybe it was just posted as a news item.

Conversion businesses seem to have been the thing 10 years ago, when there was lots of money to be made, before OEM EVs had a lot of traction. Now that every company is making EVs and prioritizing them, it's less special and less worth the mid-5-figure budgets to pull it off. Still a few around, but most seem to be on the budget end of things, not something you'd make a go of at a shop.

Wow, I'm surprised anyone read it, but that is me. I'm not part of that Gig anymore, but still on good terms. Our plan was for a Makerspace, as well as custom conversions, and although it is not making a profit yet, that is what is happening down there. 7,000sq-ft workshop below GoElectric (with a car lift) called the EV Underground, or EV-U.

 

[john61ct]

Ooh that sounds worth relocating for!

But USians not welcome until what, maybe autumn?