Hey Chamilun, nice work! Your way seems very simple. I like that! I have a few questions for ya though.

1. What pump did you use exactly?
2. And will the pump handle the heat okay?
3. How is the heater wired? Where exactly do you pull 120V from?

I'm sure I'll have a few more questions but I'm definitely interested and leaning towards doing it your way.

 

I used the ParMax 1. It is designed to be a faucet pump, so handles hot water without any problem. In my setup, it precedes the heater, so it is technically pumping the coolest water.

I have a two contactor setup. Positive from one side, negative from the other. the wiring on the heater has 3 wires, only two are needed. one of the wires has writing on it, that is the positive. the remaining thick wire (not the green one) is the negative.

I use the following relay:
http://www.newark.com/18M9286/switc...product.us0?sku=tyco-electronics-potter-brumfield-prd-11dh0-12&_requestid=23795

with the following wire setup:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1242&d=1225663994

 

Have you put a thermometer in the vents? It would be nice to have temp reading at say 1min, 2min and so on. Thanks for the info!

 

no, I have not. You can only measure the drop from ambient outdoor temperature. I can only tell you it works, and that the heater is quite warm within 2 minutes. I think another thread (teletmania/ben?) has taken temperature measurements. Maybe later when Im not busy trying to figure out things like why my brake lights quit working I will take some more scientific measurements

Im just most happy or comfortable that I didnt need the ceramic heater. The idea of having to take everything apart again in the case of a failed connect or something similar seemed way too possible (not discounting that there are many ceramic setups running for years without problems.)

 

I think I'd recommend adding a small surge tank from the cooling system of an ICE car to give you a slight reservior and expansion area - should cut down on tendancies to leak as well. Biggest thing with adding the tank is for a little coolant reserve and visual sight for coolant level - it really is not good to run those liquid heaters dry...

 

nah. I bought an auxiliary tank for that purpose, but decided against. the website that has two examples of builds (budget and extreme) uses liquid heaters in one of their setups, and do not use a reservoir. I agree with your logic, but it complicates things a bit, and this is simplicity first, to quote the kiwi.

 

Nice job Chamilun, what web site has the examples? Looking forward to your pictures. My pack voltage is 144. Do you think the heater could handle it?

 

check out metricmind. i think it was them who has both the liquid unit they sell, plus an example from several years ago that had a system that used a separate pump and heater.

 

I am installing a liquid heater. Thanks for the info and hope to see your pictures soon. Bought mine from http://www.evamerica.com and I believe it was made by...
http://www.classicelectrics.com/

 

atzi,
what part of TN are you in?

 

Jackson, TN and you?

 

north of Nashville.

my wife went and tried to register the vehicle the other day and the DMV office had no idea what to do. Apparently, I was the first to do this in our county. I know there is at least one EV in Metro Nashville; however, I do not know if he ever actually registered his conversion.

They gave me a form that is intended for altered vehicles, more along the lines of salvage, meaning if a car has been altered, what 'exactly' was done. The sheet is asking more for bumper replacement, quarter panel, etc. Im not certain yet what they will make of all engine components removed, etc.

Ill have pictures up Saturday with a few more details of what the liquid setup looks like.

 

Check out EValbum http://www.evalbum.com/geo/Tennessee
There are 16 ev's listed there from Tennessee. Let me know how the registering goes, What if we just, register them?
I wonder, are there any tax advantages to registering green?

 

we have emissions testing here; otherwise, I would have just registered and rolled >>>oh yeah, im already rolling anyway hopefully no govt officials monitor these forums.

 

added three rough pictures. in one, you can see where I mounted the pump to the plastic aux battery holder. this absorbs any vibration the pump puts off.

another pic shows the heater hoses going into the stock heater core.

yet another shows the pump removed with the two 4 inch pieces of 5/16" hose going into the adapter.

you can see the actual heater mounted against the firewall. Next step is to insulate the heater hoses coming off the heater to maximize efficiency and avoid any damage to surrounding components.

 

Great work Chamilun!!!! I posted a small write up on my site that shows the components for this system. Not trying to hijack your thread but thought it would be good info for those that follow.

http://www.upstate-ev.com/?p=46


As soon as I get my mechanical problem sorted I'll be able to enjoy that wonderful heat again



Ben in SC

 

Ben, what is your pack voltage? Mine is 144V and I am considering using an inverter to get 120V A/C. Do any of these heaters have a built in pump?
Thanks, Tom

 

Mine is 144V and they do not have a built in pump. You have to add it separately.

Ben

 

Got 2 questions.

1. We have a 120V pack, of course DC. Now how does a 120V AC heater work with DC voltage? Is this a problem at all? And if not could you please explain?

2. Chamilun, we are concerned about a closed system building too much pressure and possibly bursting somewhere, maybe the heater core. We've tested your setup out of the vehicle and WOW does it get hot! So our next step is to see the heat loss through the heater core. Is pressure a concern to you in a closed system?

Thanks!

 

JSRacer

1. heater runs fine off of dc. I have been *told* that the heater's internal 170 degree (?) thermostat will not operate under dc, however & unfortunately. The AC is rectified to DC, so if you hook straight to DC, it simply passes straight through. no problem.

2. I am not concerned about pressure within the heater core, mainly because the Parmax 1 cuts off at 35 psi. I was actually intially concerned that it would not run at all because the closed system pressure would be too high; alas, it never cuts off unless switched off.

3. Once connected to your vehicle, you will see that the heater core dissipates the heat nicely into the cabin, further keeping the pressure rise down. I never hooked my system up without running through the heater core, and probably wouldnt recommend it.

 

I just skimmed this thread, but why not just put a pressure release valve in it?

 

At what pressure? Hard to determine.

 

Well, how hot is this going to get? It its equivalent to a household hot water heater, then a pressure release valve from a household hot water heater tank would do.

If this is a sealed its going to build a lot of pressure, so if no release valve then an open atmosphere storage/overflow tank should do the trick.

Also, why use an electric water pump? If this is on an EV then why not use an automotive water pump connected to the motor? Use one from a dodge caravan,etc. They don't require being mated to the block to complete the pump.

Another alternative and possible more efficient system maybe to build a small oil type heater, like the ones you can buy at Walmart for 50.00, only smaller. The element should run on DC and if memory serves the digital t-stat is run on dc ( stepped down inside ). This may eleviate some of the headaches since they don't require a pressure release valve. If the element wont work on DC, you could pickup a 12volt kettle from walmart, they have a 12V, 15 AMP element in them, they take about 15-20 min to boil water, since your not boiling the fluid only heating it you should have heat I'd say in 5 - 10 minutes...just a thaught.

 

Has anyone investigated using one of these camping water heaters? There may be a number of issues on the down side like control, safety, temperature, adaptation, how long a bottle of gas will last, convenience, etc. The upside is it would not use power from the battery pack like a resistance heater. Just something I thought I'd throw out there for consideration. Any thoughts?

Something like this;
http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/newsrelease.asp?releasenum=215

 

Has anyone investigated using one of these camping water heaters? There may be a number of issues on the down side like control, safety, temperature, adaptation, how long a bottle of gas will last, convenience, etc. The upside is it would not use power from the battery pack like a resistance heater. Just something I thought I'd throw out there for consideration. Any thoughts?

Something like this;
http://www.coleman.com/coleman/ColemanCom/newsrelease.asp?releasenum=215

They're instant hot water heaters, they only use gas when the water needs to be heated. I was told once the bottles are only good for 20 gallons of water. That could be wrong tho..

Adaption would be easy. Basically the same as an infloor heating system using tankless heaters.

Temperature is controllable via a dial (same as your household water tank)

You'd still have a draw on the batter pack, since you would need a small pump, something small like a 1/8HP motor would probably supply a sufficient flow rate. If memory serves this is around 2 or 3 GPM. So you still going to use 93.25 watts per hour. A small resistance heater, if your not looking for super hot temp right that instant can be as small as 50 watts... You shouldn't need that much to heat your fluid, e.g. a 60 Gallon Household tank heats up in about 2-3 hours. at 1500 watts of operating power. This system is talking about how much? 5, maybe 10 gallons right? So with 5 gallons, 1500 watts will heat up to household temps in 8 - 15 minutes. Also note that the elements kick in and kick out so they dont run 100% load. Based on a ICE, coolant is still fairly hot for 15 to 20 minutes ( at least ) after you shut down the engine, so lets say for arguements sake that you run a 15% duty cycle your going to consume 225 watts of power per hour ( not counting the pump since you'll need that with the tankless system as well ).
So the toss up is an extra 225 watts of battery reserve or propane bottles. Given the cost, the tankless camper heaters run around 200.00 or so, a 5 gallon tank would have to be made since they're not readily available so give or tank 50.00 ( If you DIY ). 2 12v deep cycle batteries with 100 amp capacity ( 240 watts total ) runs around 200.00 for both at the local RV dealership. So now it'll cost you about 50.00 more for the resistance heater system, however your going to pay 4.00/bottle for the tankless system. The question now is, how much do you drive? If a bottle of propane runs you for 20 gallons, if you heat the coolant once and only once when for each trip of 1 hr and only drive for 1hr per day your goint to use 50.00 worth of propane bottles in 12.5 trips.
An alternative to this would be to tie in a automotive propane tank and fill it at the pump, however this will cost you between 15 - 20.00 to fill each time They hold about 26 Litres...should last 10 -15 times longer than small bottles, however if 1 of these tanks runs you 10 times longer, that'll last you 120 days....you'll consume 2 tanks/yr. Still 40.00...so it'll be 10.00 cheaper than batteries ( I'm not accounting for weigh because of the added weight of batteries ).

So really, both systems appear to be able to be made fairly equally, However the one advantage of added batteries is when you don't need the heater you gain extra range for your EV.
With all this being said IMO if its a tossup for a gas/resistance heater heating system, I personally would go with the resistance heater.

I posted before this an idea to go with a oil type heater simular to the ones you can buy at walmart...I personally believe this is the better system over both gas and resistance heater with a pump..since you could run a 180 watts resistance heater in the oil...consumption is 138 watts less ( combined between the heater element and the water pump in the previous system ).

 

Seems as if it might work but I just found this review which doesn't sound great:

This unit DOES NOT WORK WHEN OUTSIDE TEMPS GET BELOW ABOUT 55 DEGREES. The battery low light will come on, even if unit is fully charged. The unit will not work if plugged into a charging cicuit.

http://reviews.pricegrabber.com/compass-maps-poles-accessories/m/1776870/ut=45ca4ef7bea597b7

 

5 gallons is way more than you need. I think people are running a gallon or less in their systems. I don't think a relief valve or expansion tank is needed if you keep temperatures low enough. Flexible hoses in such a small system can probably expand enough.

 

Good point, however in a radiator the cap is what 15lbs or something? I'll look on my wifes van later. A gallon makes the power consumption way less. I wouldn't run a closed pressure system...even if for peace of mind... just my opinion tho...

i know its a discussion forum, and therefore ideas should be thrown around, but....

If you have an idea, why not make a functional prototype? There are several EVs that use a kettle burner, or toaster style elements, etc. As my father reminded me recently, there are only so many ways to make heat.

Liquid systems use less than 1/2 a gallon of antifreeze, for what its worth. I personally do not like the idea of propane or other fossil fuels as that goes a bit against the primary intention of the EV.

I would LOVE to see someone figure out a way to use a heat pump. It could both heat and cool, and probably be pretty efficient.

-i'm not sure if this was meant for me, but I'm still working on the electric motor for a future ev...LOL. I'm a ways off of any other projects...

- Why would liquid systems use les than 1/2 a gallon of antifreeze? A ICE heater holds a gallon or more, plus you need to account for storage and the lines...?

- Heat pump...its been done, I dont remember where I read it online so I cant offer any links, however I seen one that was built useing thermoelectric modules (tiny heatpumps). Cooling/Heating switching is done by reversing the polarity....

 

i know its a discussion forum, and therefore ideas should be thrown around, but....

If you have an idea, why not make a functional prototype? There are several EVs that use a kettle burner, or toaster style elements, etc. As my father reminded me recently, there are only so many ways to make heat.

Liquid systems use less than 1/2 a gallon of antifreeze, for what its worth. I personally do not like the idea of propane or other fossil fuels as that goes a bit against the primary intention of the EV.

I would LOVE to see someone figure out a way to use a heat pump. It could both heat and cool, and probably be pretty efficient.