Making 60 HP feel like 400 HP

13828 Views 33 Replies 14 Participants Last post by RollingTripod, Jan 6, 2010

Efiero

Discussion Starter · Mar 29, 2009

Ok Some one showed me some thing that got me thinking how can i make a electric car accelerate fast and this is my thoughts and some of it is from what i have seen writen. first off it would be hydraulic drive with electric motor driven pumps now how it would work first off you need a accumulator tank like 10 to 20 gallon this holds the hydraulic fluid under pressure like 8000 psi that is hooked to a simple ball valve to the hydraulic wheel motors then you have an electric pump 60 hp so when the pressure drops to 5000 psi it starts and stops at 800psi to refill the accumulator ther would need to be a check valve on the pump so the fluid would only go one way. now how wolud this make it feel like you have more power if you open the ball valve all the way it will flow all the fluid to the wheel motors at 8000 psi fir a short time those making more hp for a short time and to go like 60 the ball valve just opens a little bit

21 - 34 of 34 Posts

tj4fa

· #21 · Apr 1, 2009

I like the idea of hydraulics running a car. They already do it in UPS and garbage trucks.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencarad...nology-boosts-fuel-efficiency-45-percent.html

The components seem to be smaller and lighter except for maybe the hydraulic accumulator/reservoir but how much does a battery pack weight?

In my Ranger EV the battery pack accounts for about 1700lbs.

I'm thinking a small battery pack/electric motor spinning up a flywheel on pressure drop from the hydraulic accumulator would pump an accumulator back up when needed to assist the hydraulic regen from braking, or maybe hybriding it with a very small ICE.

When thinking of the hydraulic pump, I think of a pressure washer. Small pump, small motor/engine putting out high pressure and volumn.

blackpanther-st

· #22 · Apr 4, 2009

Efiero said:
Ok Some one showed me some thing that got me thinking how can i make a electric car accelerate fast and this is my thoughts and some of it is from what i have seen writen. first off it would be hydraulic drive with electric motor driven pumps now how it would work first off you need a accumulator tank like 10 to 20 gallon this holds the hydraulic fluid under pressure like 8000 psi that is hooked to a simple ball valve to the hydraulic wheel motors then you have an electric pump 60 hp so when the pressure drops to 5000 psi it starts and stops at 800psi to refill the accumulator ther would need to be a check valve on the pump so the fluid would only go one way. now how wolud this make it feel like you have more power if you open the ball valve all the way it will flow all the fluid to the wheel motors at 8000 psi fir a short time those making more hp for a short time and to go like 60 the ball valve just opens a little bit

Ford had been experimenting with this for an ICE set up; only theirs was a parallel setup instead of series. it worked rather well for the ICE as I understand it , but it was noisy and as others here have mentioned there is a good bit of aditional waight involved ( we already have problems with that.) the acumulator is not so much the problem so much as is the pump/motor. (their parelel setup combines the two funtions in oune unit using reversing valves to save weight and complexety.

As Greenflight mentioned, this is un nessesary with electic motors, the are well suted to surge power up to 10X there continuious rating; a light weaght ultracapacitor bank can deliver that power with much les weight.

If you are still interested in this though, I would recomend taking a look at high end paint ball guns for the acumilator tech; some are using extream presure CO2 in composit fiber tanks, and they are suprisingly light!

tj4fa

· #23 · Apr 4, 2009 (Edited)

I think a combination of many technologies is the answer until we get lighter and more powerful batteries that the average person can get and afford.

Below is an article that talks a bit about aerodynamics which will apply to our electric cars as well as other alternate vehicles such as hydraulic hybrids.

The Avion car in the link below is pretty nice looking compared to cars like the Prius and Insight plus is an XPrize entry and the article at it's main page indicates it has gotten over 100mpg.

http://www.free-energy.ws/transportation.html

Here's another Xprize entry that is a hydraulic hybrid: http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4311692.html

blackpanther-st

· #24 · Apr 6, 2009 (Edited)

tj4fa said:
I think a combination of many technologies is the answer until we get lighter and more powerful batteries that the average person can get and afford.

Below is an article that talks a bit about aerodynamics which will apply to our electric cars as well as other alternate vehicles such as hydraulic hybrids.

The Avion car in the link below is pretty nice looking compared to cars like the Prius and Insight plus is an XPrize entry and the article at it's main page indicates it has gotten over 100mpg.

http://www.free-energy.ws/transportation.html

Here's another Xprize entry that is a hydraulic hybrid: http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_news/4311692.html

I agree. Yes there are many answers, electric is just one of them. nearly 30 years ago I had heard of series hybrids that were able to break the 100 MPG barrier which is what I am looking to reproduce with my own project. I am just geting started here so I haven't posted anything on it yet, but I will be soon. I plan to document the whole project for others who are interested. I doubt that I will reach my 100 MPG goal due to inefficiency in the alternator, but I will be satisfied if I get better than 60MPG, it beats the 20/24 it gets now.

A little note here; the production hybrids being produced today are wimpy parallel configurations with not enough battery power and electric motor output to be of the benefit they should be; in my opinion they are a joke of an excuse to call something a green hybrid.

Efiero

Discussion Starter · #25 · Apr 6, 2009

I am verey disapoited with all the big car companys they just dont seem to want to do it its like some one has to hold gun to there head to do it.
There are so many smart folks all over and seem to be able to do what a GM,ford,Toyota, ect cant . I know that I have a bunch of ideas not that they are all great but i think like using electric motors and hydraulics to make a car accelerat fast so you dont need to use a supper high amp controler . I have 2 ways to do what i want with hydraulics one would be to have one electric motor drive a pump that runs some hydraulic motors that drive the wheels and would have a gear ratio of 8 to 1 and there would be a second pump and electric motor that fills a hydraulic accumulator to 6000 psi and when you floor it a valve open and dumps all that extra stored power to those hydraulic motors drivnig the wheels and acceleration big time

Bowser330

· #26 · May 1, 2009

I am not a huge fan of hydraulic power for cars...makes more sense for stop n go trucks really....but here's some car information...

http://www.hybridcars.com/related-technologies/hydraulic-hybrids.html

about the car industry being slow to develop clean efficient technologies,

VW developed a hatchback based on the Golf that was a diesel hybrid and got 80mpg...with performance that was comparable to many cars that can get 30's for mpg...but guess what...they wont release it...why..who the hell knows...Big Oil?

RollingTripod

· #27 · Jan 5, 2010

dont mean to be harsh but that is a dumb idea. Please dont spend any of your hard earned money on it.
Pumping fluid is one of the least efficient things you can do, only do it if you must!

Bowser330

· #28 · Jan 5, 2010

RollingTripod said:
dont mean to be harsh but that is a dumb idea. Please dont spend any of your hard earned money on it.
Pumping fluid is one of the least efficient things you can do, only do it if you must!

well there are probably a few better ways you could have phrased that so as not to sound too harsh, but i doubt anyone took offense...

I like it because it's still alterntive energy technology and that is what we need. With more research and development of alterntive energy technology we will be able to discover and pursue those higher efficiency systems...

Additionally, about the efficiency of pumping fluid, I could have sworn the eaton system said it was a more efficient way of energy capture than electric...

badasstoyotas

· #29 · Jan 5, 2010

First off I'm a nub to EV but right off the bat I see one BIG problem with your idea though, to many parts to many things that can go wrong or break. Its the same problem with ICE cars ( especially high performance cars )

RollingTripod

· #30 · Jan 5, 2010

Bowser330 said:
well there are probably a few better ways you could have phrased that so as not to sound too harsh, but i doubt anyone took offense...

I like it because it's still alterntive energy technology and that is what we need. With more research and development of alterntive energy technology we will be able to discover and pursue those higher efficiency systems...

Additionally, about the efficiency of pumping fluid, I could have sworn the eaton system said it was a more efficient way of energy capture than electric...

yes you are right, apologies i mean no harm - i have the tact and prowess of a bull in a china-shop!

still my point remains. Pumping fluid induces turbulence, heat and friction, all of which result in losses of energy. They open up a whole new realm of problems from maintenance, to pressure pulses. The pump will also have to be powered by something as well, namely a motor or an ICE, one of which we are all trying to use as they are very efficient - the other is a wonderful creation, but is fast becoming a dated invention. (however i still want a V12)

converting stored electrical energy into kinetic in a motor, then into kinetic in a fluid, then back into kinetic in a turning wheel is excessive. why not put a coal powered boiler in it to generate the electricity for the batteries? Because coverting energy from one form to another costs energy, the inventions we use to harness natures power arent as good as natures methods - until then we must use the most appropriate of ours.

Kinetic energy in fluids is best applied to slow moving high force components as it can travel through pipes yet give a uniform and highly controllable force applied to an area - like your cars' brakes, a hydraulic lift on a forklift or the incredible control surfaces on an aeroplanes wings that allow us to defy nature.

Drivetrains are best with mechanical systems as the losses are much less.

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gor

· #31 · Jan 5, 2010 (Edited)

Efiero, this idea been studied, tried and built before, numerous combinations and prototypes
basic principle - is simple; but actual built - very not simple and it is expensive;
- who think hydraulic systems and drivetrain inefficient, might be surprised (50hp pump/motor you can hold in the hand (~5kg), tiny hydro pump and motor delivers 30hp to racing superbike front wheel... - i been surprised: so "efficient and planty of torque" electric motors often have to use ICE gearbox ... - there is advantages and disadvantages, strong and week points - devil in details (which could make it or break it)

here's some links for you:

Hydraulicinnovations forum (hydraulic systems, vehicles, DIY)
http://www.hydraulicinnovations.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331
current built:
HI-MPG Commuter Car Build.. (back to the 70's)

1000 horsepower Ford Explorer: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3003264
http://www.hybridvehicle.calpoly.edu/index.html

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RollingTripod

· #32 · Jan 6, 2010

http://www.fluidpowerjournal.com/images/2009/FPJOHD09/FPJOH09_Aseries.pdf

incredible!

It does seem that hydraulic drive trains are more efficient at low RPMs

gor

· #33 · Jan 6, 2010 (Edited)

2

more links on the topic

http://www.ccefp.org/research/testbeds/hydraulic-hybrid-passenger-vehicle

Yamaha racing; 2wd: added 30hp to the front wheel - hydro drivetrain (motor, pump, hoses, oil, cooller) - 8kg, 12500rpm

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/269/4240/Motorcycle-Article/Yamaha-R1-Ohlins-2WD-Review.aspx
http://www.ohlins.com/Checkpoint-Ohlins/2WD---The-Complete-Story/The-2WD-Specification/

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RollingTripod

· #34 · Jan 6, 2010

gor said:
more links on the topic

http://www.ccefp.org/research/testbeds/hydraulic-hybrid-passenger-vehicle

Yamaha racing; 2wd: added 30hp to the front wheel - hydro drivetrain (motor, pump, hoses, oil, cooller) - 8kg, 12500rpm

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/269/4240/Motorcycle-Article/Yamaha-R1-Ohlins-2WD-Review.aspx
http://www.ohlins.com/Checkpoint-Ohlins/2WD---The-Complete-Story/The-2WD-Specification/

thats an awesome creation! I can imagine that the pumps from bosch probably cost around the same as a 3bedroom house!
Excellent piece of engineering, lets hope its developed further

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