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Now I understand why your charging is lacking GFCI protection -- it's not commonly installed on 240 vac circuits. It is available because it is required for hot tub systems.

I suspect your motor has an internal short to ground. Try disconnecting both motor cable from the controller (or from the motor if you tape up the terminals so they cannot short to the frame.) Then try charging and see if everything is O.K. Slight grounding from the motor is not uncommon, but usually they don't get worse than about 5000 ohms to ground. That is just a fraction of an amp which won't trip a breaker from over current. It is possible it tripped the breaker at work because it has arc-fault protection, but tripping a breaker for arc detection or excess current hints at an internal motor short.
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Now I understand why your charging is lacking GFCI protection -- it's not commonly installed on 240 vac circuits. It is available because it is required for hot tub systems.

I suspect your motor has an internal short to ground. Try disconnecting ...or excess current hints at an internal motor short.
When I disconnect the B- from the Curtis, it goes away. Its wierd though, I measured the V across the motor to frame and got 20V and it kept going up till it got to around 100V then snap, crackle, and pop, got arc'ing and the V went back down to 20V and started all over again. It could easily be the motor having a short, things got salt spray all over it. Once I ge it running again, I'll run it to the carwash and power wash it again, get all the salt off.

Just disconnected the chargers (main and DC/DC) and now my battery pack short centered on battery #35, and it seemed to move around. One moment its centered on 35, next its on 40, then back...

Also found a bad battery. Post is melted, black stuff, and go figure it was the one that didnt shunt last charge. I have plastic thats dirty, so couldn't see the bad post.

So at last count, thats three problems! I think I'm done for a while...New battery should be here any day, I'll try clean the motor...
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Don't know if you read all the other posts here, but I've now pulled battery #46 and the short is gone. I also put a 10k resistor across my meter leads which seems to help get rid of erronious readings. I just inspected and cleaned the battery, can't find anything other than humidity/salt spray? on it, so I washed it and am going to throw it back in. Got a melted battery, see above, going to pull it and just bypass it till my new batt shows up. (if ever)
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Spent all weekend pulling all the MiniBMS's off the batteries, washing them with soap and water, rinse, putting it back together. The short went away. Then turned on the charger and the motor was arcing again. Also, I tried to rotate the motor and it seemed locked in place. checked ohm from motor terminal to ground, and everywhere was only a few ohms. Plus when initially turning the charger on, there is a loud relay thunking sound coming from up front "Curtis?" and then I get the arcing, but if I turn it on then off and back on again, the loud relay sound does not come back. Maybe something inside the Curtis?

I finally decided to just disconnect the Curtis B- when charging and re-connect to drive. My Zilla is on its way back, I'm hoping the Curtis is bad and replacing it with the Zilla will fix everything.
 

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I don't think "hoping" is the correct response. You need to find out what is wrong. We're not playing with D cells here.

The thing is, your main contactor disconnects B+ and you disconnect B- which would cover up any possible motor issues. I'm not aware of any problem with the Curtis likely to cause the symptoms you are experiencing. If you hear arcing in the motor something is very wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
I don't think "hoping" is the correct response. You need to find out what is wrong. We're not playing with D cells here.

The thing is, your main contactor disconnects B+ and you disconnect B- which would cover up any possible motor issues. I'm not aware of any problem with the Curtis likely to cause the symptoms you are experiencing. If you hear arcing in the motor something is very wrong.
I've done everything I can think of to find the problem. The B+ is disconnected, the batteries were cleaned and dried, the short went away, I removed the HV cables and cleaned and insulated them, I removed the connections on the motor and cleaned them.

I'm out of ideas.

There is a clunking noise when I first turn on the charger, if I turn it back off then back on, I don't hear it, so I assume its the Curtis getting the full charger voltage initially. When the B- is connected to the charger when charging, I tried to rotate the motor to see if the arcing got better or worse, but I couldn't rotate the motor! I turned the charger off and tried to rotate the motor again, and in seconds I was able to easily. So I'm sure it was electricaly locked, but then it could have also been an arc burn and I just was able to "break" it once I turned the charger off.

My Zilla will arrive today, I'll put it in ASAP, and if the problem goes away, it'll have to be the Curtis. I'm at a loss to anything else at this time.
 

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Should there be any resistance from any motor terminal to the trucks frame? Warp 9" series wound...
In theory, there should be no resistance from the motor terminals to chassis. In practice, 100,000 ohms is common. If the resistance is very low, such as under 1000 ohms, there's a problem, Houston. In this case, remove both wires connecting the motor and measure again. If the resistance is still low, the motor will have to come out and be disassembled. :eek:

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
In theory, there should be no resistance from the motor terminals to chassis. In practice, 100,000 ohms is common. If the resistance is very low, such as under 1000 ohms, there's a problem, Houston. In this case, remove both wires connecting the motor and measure again. If the resistance is still low, the motor will have to come out and be disassembled. :eek:

Russ Kaufmann

RUSSCO
Oh yeah, either I have a shorted motor, or a bad fluke meter! I'll check again tonight. Always did want to try installing the 12" forklift motor and see how it performs vs the Warp 9!

This would explain the heat from the motor hours after driving in 20 degtree weather and the motor "locked" condition while charging. Still drives fine though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
Finally found it. Its salt spray on the HV negative cable. I disconnected cables until the short went away, cleaned the cable off (it wasn't shorted to the frame anywhere) and re-installed. The short kept moving, it is also on the HV positive cable, and also inside the motor. Its getting warmer, so I'm going to high pressure wash everything, clean what I can, go to 4/0 HV cable this summer, and route them inside a watertight tube to prevent this in the future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Didn't find it! Just blew up the Curtis 1231C, not even trying to go really, just putzing along. Then I get my Zilla back in, and the Manzanita had enough, blew it too!
 

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I'm pretty sure this short is inside the motor! Where on the motor did you see the arcing?

I would disconnect both wires from the motor and check with your DMM between each of the terminals and the motor case for any continuity. If it passes this test it should be retested with a fairly high DC voltage present between the windings and the case. There are additional safety requirements for that test.

Something an old instructor of mine taught me, "Electricity doesn't care what YOU think is the shortest path to ground."
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I'm pretty sure this short is inside the motor! Where on the motor did you see the arcing?

I would disconnect both wires from the motor and check with your DMM between each of the terminals and the motor case for any continuity. If it passes this test it should be retested with a fairly high DC voltage present between the windings and the case. There are additional safety requirements for that test.

Something an old instructor of mine taught me, "Electricity doesn't care what YOU think is the shortest path to ground."
Sorry, thought I had posted that somewhere. I actually took video of the acr'ing. Yes, it's inside the motor, you can see the arc happen inside from a brush wire to the screen that covers the access holes. If it didn't arc, it hummed! The motor reads "0" ohms to the trucks frame, or even its own frame, with all connections off. I had cleaned it just before I blew the charger and it went away, but after blowing the charger, the "0" ohms had come back.

There will be a motor removal and cleaning, maybe even install the forklift motor. Its bigger, so better?

Looking for a fix to the charger, but getting no replies from Manzanita yet. They don't have a tab for "repair", just "contact us", so I'm not sure they repair them. Got a friend who can get into it, but not for some time, and I owe him a Curtis now...

Tore open the Manzanita, it doesn't have any huge capacitors I expected from where the manual says to disconnect the main pack in the middle before connecting the charger or it will blow the caps... Did find as I put a meter on the input power wires, it reads flat 0 ohms. Blows the C/B in the house as soon as power is applied and the chargers C/B's are engaged.
 

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The motor reads "0" ohms to the trucks frame, or even its own frame, with all connections off.

There will be a motor removal and cleaning, maybe even install the forklift motor. Its bigger, so better?

Looking for a fix to the charger, but getting no replies from Manzanita yet. They don't have a tab for "repair", just "contact us", so I'm not sure they repair them.
When the motor is out I would pull the armature out of the case and look it over. Perhaps a growler test could be arranged, but I'm guessing you will be able to find the problem(s).

Manzanita Micro does repair the chargers because I recently had the timer board on mine fixed. It is a small outfit and I usually find it easiest to call during business hours or shortly after business hours (Pacific time zone.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
When the motor is out I would pull the armature out of the case and look it over. Perhaps a growler test could be arranged, but I'm guessing you will be able to find the problem(s).

Manzanita Micro does repair the chargers because I recently had the timer board on mine fixed. It is a small outfit and I usually find it easiest to call during business hours or shortly after business hours (Pacific time zone.)
Just finished repairing the charger.:) It was the rectifier (FB5006) shorted like a bad dog!:( I'm sure the shorted motor caused it. The motor's coming out tommorrow, might put the forklift motor in... maybe not. The Curtis is fried! So I owe cost of a used one to my buddy. Anyone know what an avergae price for a used Curtis is? I sold mine for a grand a few months ago, but figured the guy needed some $$$ help to get him started.
 
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