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Discussion Starter #1
Dear NEDRA board,

I was poking around the NHRA rules about and found some conflicting
info.
Under general rules it says "No 3 wheeled vehicles". Under Electrics it
says "OEM 3 wheeled electric vehicles OK".
Under general rules it says only 1 engine. Under electrics it says
"Multiple motors OK".
AGNS is an OEM 3 wheeled, multiple motor vehicle, so is she good to go
or do I have multiple infractions here?
All I can find under NEDRA rules is that the motorcycle/trike class is
ANY 3 wheeled vehicle.

Also some interesting info for the future. General rules state that a
motorcycle or snowmobile that can't back up cannot cross the staging
lights. This led to our disqualification. I'm kicking myself for not
being aware of this rule. It would have been awesome to light them up
in reverse like we have done in the shop. Ihave a feeling I better
print this one out and keep it handy.

Anyway, any thoughts you can throw on the subject would be appreciated
and help us determine how to build future vehicles such as AGNS' big
brother. What would be the rule on 4 wheels in a line? 5 wheels?
Should I put a track around all of them and call it a snowmobile? With
these little motors the possibilities are only limited by the
imagination and the rules at hand.

Shawn
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Discussion Starter #2
Shawn and NEDRA,
This was my question a month or so ago. Why do we
(electric vehicle builders) need to follow NHRA rules.
Certianly, if we are racing against infernal
combustion powered vehicles we may use their rules but
if we are racing agains other electrics why not create
our own classes. 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc wheels and motors. we
are developing a completely new sport/activity. why
limit ourselves to coping rules that are designed for
a different animal.
kEVs
--- [email protected] wrote:

> Dear NEDRA board,
>
> I was poking around the NHRA rules about and found
> some conflicting
> info.
> Under general rules it says "No 3 wheeled vehicles".
> Under Electrics it
> says "OEM 3 wheeled electric vehicles OK".
> Under general rules it says only 1 engine. Under
> electrics it says
> "Multiple motors OK".
> AGNS is an OEM 3 wheeled, multiple motor vehicle, so
> is she good to go
> or do I have multiple infractions here?
> All I can find under NEDRA rules is that the
> motorcycle/trike class is
> ANY 3 wheeled vehicle.
>
> Also some interesting info for the future. General
> rules state that a
> motorcycle or snowmobile that can't back up cannot
> cross the staging
> lights. This led to our disqualification. I'm
> kicking myself for not
> being aware of this rule. It would have been awesome
> to light them up
> in reverse like we have done in the shop. Ihave a
> feeling I better
> print this one out and keep it handy.
>
> Anyway, any thoughts you can throw on the subject
> would be appreciated
> and help us determine how to build future vehicles
> such as AGNS' big
> brother. What would be the rule on 4 wheels in a
> line? 5 wheels?
> Should I put a track around all of them and call it
> a snowmobile? With
> these little motors the possibilities are only
> limited by the
> imagination and the rules at hand.
>
> Shawn
>
________________________________________________________________________
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out
> more about what's free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
>




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Discussion Starter #3
In a message dated 7/30/2007 7:40:12 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

Shawn and NEDRA,
This was my question a month or so ago. Why do we
(electric vehicle builders) need to follow NHRA rules.
Certianly, if we are racing against infernal
combustion powered vehicles we may use their rules but
if we are racing agains other electrics why not create
our own classes. 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc wheels and motors. we
are developing a completely new sport/activity. why
limit ourselves to coping rules that are designed for
a different animal.
kEVs



I think the main reason we follow NHRA rules is because we run on their race
tracks without them we are DEAD.
This is the real world not fantasy, you piss them off you might as well take
your electric toys and throw them away.

Harsh, but true.

Jim



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Discussion Starter #4
I may be wrong but I believe most of the raceways are
owned by corporations, patnerships or individuals not
NHRA. NHRA sanctions the events hence records as does
NEDRA but it does not mean they have to agree and have
the same rules. I have seen many vehicles run at
"NHRA" events that are not regulation vehicles. I am
not suggesting that we "piss" anyone off nor am I
living in a fantasy world and yes my vehicles may seem
like toys but one has to start somewhere and if our
toys get us noticed we may get the kind of money to
make bigger and better ones. Look what happened when
one person built the first monster truck. now it is a
whole industry. look what happened in the dune buggy
field. I am just suggesting that we may be able to
have broader rules. After all NEDRA is a separate
sanctioning body.
keith
--- [email protected] wrote:

>
> In a message dated 7/30/2007 7:40:12 A.M. Pacific
> Daylight Time,
> [email protected] writes:
>
> Shawn and NEDRA,
> This was my question a month or so ago. Why do we
> (electric vehicle builders) need to follow NHRA
> rules.
> Certianly, if we are racing against infernal
> combustion powered vehicles we may use their rules
> but
> if we are racing agains other electrics why not
> create
> our own classes. 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc wheels and motors.
> we
> are developing a completely new sport/activity. why
> limit ourselves to coping rules that are designed
> for
> a different animal.
> kEVs
>
>
>
> I think the main reason we follow NHRA rules is
> because we run on their race
> tracks without them we are DEAD.
> This is the real world not fantasy, you piss them
> off you might as well take
> your electric toys and throw them away.
>
> Harsh, but true.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak
> peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>




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Discussion Starter #5
In a message dated 7/30/2007 9:46:02 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

I may be wrong but I believe most of the raceways are
owned by corporations, patnerships or individuals not
NHRA. NHRA sanctions the events hence records as does
NEDRA but it does not mean they have to agree and have
the same rules.
____________________________________________________

You may own a multi-million dollar drag strip, but without an NHRA sanction
you will not get the NHRA following or anywhere near the income that NHRA
generates. You want NHRA? you play by their rules every weekend or you loose
their sanction.

____________________________________________________

I have seen many vehicles run at
"NHRA" events that are not regulation vehicles.
______________________________________

Don't tell anyone, the track will be in trouble.


I am
not suggesting that we "piss" anyone off nor am I
living in a fantasy world and yes my vehicles may seem
like toys but one has to start somewhere and if our
toys get us noticed we may get the kind of money to
make bigger and better ones.
___________________________________________

I didn't mean to belittle your vehicle, I meant without good race tracks we
have no place to run and improve them........they will just become electric
toys. We need NHRA!!!!!! they have been around a long time and they now know
how to make a profit, they have created a multi-billion industry we should
learn from them.

Jim L








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Discussion Starter #6
Sorry Jim,

I can't read your posts either.

Shawn


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 3:12 pm
Subject: Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles



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Discussion Starter #7
Let me clear up some confusion.

NEDRA is an "Alternative Sanctioning Body" from the perspective of
the NHRA. Thus, we can operate NEDRA sanctioned races at NHRA tracks
and the track liability insurance will cover the NEDRA event.
Basically, the NHRA has said that the NEDRA safety rules are "OK" for
their tracks.

Additionally, the NHRA has incorporated NEDRA's safety rules (not
the NEDRA vehicle classifications) into the NHRA rulebook. Thus, you
may run EVs that otherwise fall within the existing NHRA
classifications in NHRA bracket races.

A motorcycle with more than two wheels doesn't fit in the existing
NHRA vehicle classifications. It DOES fit in the NEDRA vehicle
classifications. Thus, you can run at NHRA tracks, and compete in
NEDRA records and events, (also test-and-tunes, exhibition runs,
etc.) but, technically, you can't compete in NHRA bracket racing.

If one of the other competitors lodges a protest, you could be
prevented from competing (and wining a prize) in an NHRA bracket race
with a three-wheeled vehicle.

The track doesn't care because you are covered by the insurance.
This is because you are following the NHRA safety rules and fit
within the NEDRA vehicle classifications. The other competitors might
care, however, and could protest your vehicle because it does not
technically fit the bracket racing class rules.

This was the same for the reverse gear requirement for Wayland, by
the way. Until NEDRA made it a rule that reverse was required, the
track didn't care (but the other competitors might have made it a
classification issue.)

Of course, as usual, my opinion on these matters is of no value,
consequence, nor has it any official standing whatsoever. :)

Bill Dube'
 

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Discussion Starter #8
keith vansickle wrote:

> Shawn and NEDRA,
> This was my question a month or so ago. Why do we
> (electric vehicle builders) need to follow NHRA rules.
> Certianly, if we are racing against infernal
> combustion powered vehicles we may use their rules but
> if we are racing agains other electrics why not create
> our own classes. 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc wheels and motors. we
> are developing a completely new sport/activity. why
> limit ourselves to coping rules that are designed for
> a different animal.

The whole point of NEDRA was to get electric vehicle racing accepted
and into the NHRA rules. When NEDRA started there was no way to race
an EV under NHRA because the rules required an internal combustion
engine. They created NEDRA to provide EV racing rules and to become a
part of the mainstream racing establishment.

Hey, I have my disappointments too. Once upon a time I could have
raced my EV buggy with only a simple roll loop and proper seat belts.
If I wanted to do that now I would have to install a 5 point roll bar
and full harness including arm restraints (some of the requirements
under NHRA for "VW based kit cars".) Yes, VW based kit cars tend to
be dangerous on the track - something about the frame running down
the center = guard rail BAD :) Still, it hasn't killed me in 15
years (not even once, as Rod would say.)

Paul "neon" Gooch
 

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Discussion Starter #9
In a message dated 7/30/2007 6:24:18 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:


Hey, I have my disappointments too. Once upon a time I could have
raced my EV buggy with only a simple roll loop and proper seat belts.
If I wanted to do that now I would have to install a 5 point roll bar
and full harness including arm restraints (some of the requirements
under NHRA for "VW based kit cars".) Yes, VW based kit cars tend to
be dangerous on the track - something about the frame running down
the center = guard rail BAD :) Still, it hasn't killed me in 15
years (not even once, as Rod would say.)

Paul "neon" Gooch

________________________________

Yes that's true, who needs insurance or seat belts...........they are only
necessary if you crash and flip it over.
I got off a bike at about 170mph at the Bonneville salt flats about 25 years
ago, thank god for safety gear it works

Jim




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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks Bill. Sounds like we should use 3 wheels for record setting and
just take the rear one off and run brackets. The cool part is this
procedure only takes a few minutes.

Shawn


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dube <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 4:35 pm
Subject: Re: NEDRA board help on 3 wheeled vehicles


Let me clear up some confusion.Â*
Â*
Â* NEDRA is an "Alternative Sanctioning Body" from the perspective of
the NHRA. Thus, we can operate NEDRA sanctioned races at NHRA tracks
and the track liability insurance will cover the NEDRA event.
Basically, the NHRA has said that the NEDRA safety rules are "OK" for
their tracks.Â*
Â*
Â* Additionally, the NHRA has incorporated NEDRA's safety rules (not the
NEDRA vehicle classifications) into the NHRA rulebook. Thus, you may
run EVs that otherwise fall within the existing NHRA classifications in
NHRA bracket races.Â*
Â*
Â* A motorcycle with more than two wheels doesn't fit in the existing
NHRA vehicle classifications. It DOES fit in the NEDRA vehicle
classifications. Thus, you can run at NHRA tracks, and compete in NEDRA
records and events, (also test-and-tunes, exhibition runs, etc.) but,
technically, you can't compete in NHRA bracket racing.Â*
Â*
Â* If one of the other competitors lodges a protest, you could be
prevented from competing (and wining a prize) in an NHRA bracket race
with a three-wheeled vehicle.Â*
Â*
Â* The track doesn't care because you are covered by the insurance. This
is because you are following the NHRA safety rules and fit within the
NEDRA vehicle classifications. The other competitors might care,
however, and could protest your vehicle because it does not technically
fit the bracket racing class rules.Â*
Â*
Â* This was the same for the reverse gear requirement for Wayland, by
the way. Until NEDRA made it a rule that reverse was required, the
track didn't care (but the other competitors might have made it a
classification issue.)Â*
Â*
Â* Of course, as usual, my opinion on these matters is of no value,
consequence, nor has it any official standing whatsoever. :)Â*
Â*
Â* Bill Dube'Â*
Â*


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=0
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Just for craziness sake... ;)

Is there a minimum distance between wheels in the rules? That is to
say, could you make a 3 wheeled design technically 4 wheeled by
putting a small axle between the front or rear wheels?

It would increase complexity, but would be pretty nifty, I think :)

--T
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Short wheelbase = low polar moment
BAD on the dragstrip.

What is safe on the street with a coefficient of friction of
about 1.0 is not always safe on the dragstrip with a coefficient of
friction of about 3.0

Bill Dube'

At 06:13 PM 7/30/2007, you wrote:
>
keith vansickle wrote:
>
>>Shawn and NEDRA,
>>This was my question a month or so ago. Why do we
>>(electric vehicle builders) need to follow NHRA rules.
>>Certianly, if we are racing against infernal
>>combustion powered vehicles we may use their rules but
>>if we are racing agains other electrics why not create
>>our own classes. 1,2,3,4,5,6,etc wheels and motors. we
>>are developing a completely new sport/activity. why
>>limit ourselves to coping rules that are designed for
>>a different animal.
>
>The whole point of NEDRA was to get electric vehicle racing accepted
>and into the NHRA rules. When NEDRA started there was no way to race
>an EV under NHRA because the rules required an internal combustion
>engine. They created NEDRA to provide EV racing rules and to become a
>part of the mainstream racing establishment.
>
>Hey, I have my disappointments too. Once upon a time I could have
>raced my EV buggy with only a simple roll loop and proper seat belts.
>If I wanted to do that now I would have to install a 5 point roll bar
>and full harness including arm restraints (some of the requirements
>under NHRA for "VW based kit cars".) Yes, VW based kit cars tend to
>be dangerous on the track - something about the frame running down
>the center = guard rail BAD :) Still, it hasn't killed me in 15
>years (not even once, as Rod would say.)
>
>Paul "neon" Gooch
 
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