new AC motor specs from TEMR

15418 Views 60 Replies 13 Participants Last post by TomA, Feb 5, 2011

motor guy

Discussion Starter · Jan 7, 2011

hello all

the cat is starting to come out of the bag. we have mentioned that topeka electric motor has been designing a new ac motor. we now have performance specs and dimensional specs. topeka electric has been working on a proprietary motor with Baldor Electric Motor. we are also working with representatives of Curtis controllers so the motors and controllers are compatible. the controller we will be using is the new 1238R, 650 amp.

see attached files for the specs about the motor. we are not ready to release pricing yet. we are about 5 to 6 weeks before we have our first motor in hand. we are still working on final details.

those who are interested in purchasing the motor should contact us. we will keep your names on file and notify you when we are ready to take orders.

thanks
kevin
topeka electric motor inc.
ev designs dept.
[email protected]

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Coulomb

· #2 · Jan 8, 2011

motor guy said:
We are also working with representatives of Curtis controllers so the motors and controllers are compatible. the controller we will be using is the new 1238R, 650 amp.

Ah, so is that controller available now, or at least will be ready in 6 weeks or so?

see attached files for the specs about the motor.

Interesting. 37 kW continuous (presumably not limited to one hour, all day); we should get well over 80 kW peak from the Curtis 1238R (assuming it's limited to 130 V like the 1238-7501). That should be a better fit for medium sized conversions.

It's physically quite large; I guess the windings need to be quite thick, and it has a quite high continuous rating. Any idea what it will weigh?

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 8, 2011

hello all

yes the controller is about 4 weeks away. yes the motor is continuous rated.it has a dirty duty coating on the exterior. similar to powder coating.
it is a little larger than the the 9" motors. we are designing this particular motor for 1/2 ton trucks, for delivery trucks. the motor size can be made smaller or larger.

thanks kevin

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 8, 2011

hello all

we are working out the final details on the deminsion specs. they include threaded holes in the end of both shafts and the mounting bolt circle. this new design comes with sealed bearings and are oversized for extra load capibilities. rating is IP54

thanks kevin
topeka electric motor inc.

Kelmark

· #5 · Jan 9, 2011

motor guy said:
hello all

yes the controller is about 4 weeks away. yes the motor is continuous rated.it has a dirty duty coating on the exterior. similar to powder coating.
it is a little larger than the the 9" motors. we are designing this particular motor for 1/2 ton trucks, for delivery trucks. the motor size can be made smaller or larger.

thanks kevin

Kevin,

Are you working on a lighter system for cars as well? If so;

Using the same Curtis controller as HPEV AC-50 will probably upgrade to, how would your system be different? IE (Pricing, eff, or weight)

I am only asking because I was interested in the AC-50 but thought the power was somewhat limited for my taste. I have been waiting for the 144V 650A controller from Curtis before I purchase. But if you had a more efficient motor at the same weight or preferably less than HPEV I would be very interested in it. I am also located in Kansas.

Jacob

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 9, 2011

hello jacob

the ac motor we are building will fit into our s10 if we wanted. it is a little larger than the 9 '' style motors on the market now. we were trying to design lots of torque and very high eff. rating. our torque rating is almost 150 continuous. if memory serves me correctly our torque output at 600 amps was 295 ftlbs up to around 1900 rpm. this motor will spin/run to 5000 rpm but the ratings start dropping off after 2200 rpm. we designed this motor to be used in production autos and trucks for highway use in overdrive. to be able for longer trips. we are calculating about 150 to 240 amps while in overdrive at 65 mph.

eff is very high on this motor because of its design. i dont have an exact weight yet,and the pricing is some of the final topics that we are finallizing.

now on the new curtis 144volt, is that input or out put figuring the rms value, because on ac 3 phase motors are rated plus or minus 10% on voltage from rated nametag voltage. they will still run with higher voltage than 10%.but there are some issues that happen when you do. higher torque with lots higher amps and considerable more heat. you need to stay with in the service factor amps. or you can damage windings.

thanks kevin
please keep asking questions, you can also call me at temr 1-785-233-4750.
instead of going from memory i need to bring the motor data folder home. to be able to give you guys exact #'s.
again thanks kevin

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G

· #7 · Jan 9, 2011

Get that motor to run in the 6K or better range if you can. 5K is ok but 6k or 6.5k would be better. Might make a nice motor for a VW Bus.

Pete

PhantomPholly

· #8 · Jan 9, 2011

I don't see a weight specification in there - do you have that?

Does it use the same adapter mounting pattern as a 9" WarpDrive?

Might make a good match with an ElectraGlide.

RoughRider

· #9 · Jan 10, 2011 (Edited)

the motor is 18inch in diameter, right?

torque numbers are nice...somethink you can play with...

5000rpm is not bad, but 6000 and more would be better...

is it aircooled?

motor is much bigger than the AC50...

constant torque is higher than the peaktorque of the AC50

the questions are:

1. weight
2. price

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motor guy

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jan 10, 2011

hello all

i will try to answer some of the questions that we are getting.

the motor is 18inch in diameter, right? the end plates are 18 in diameter, the barrel on the motor is only 15.19in.

torque numbers are nice...somethink you can play with...

5000rpm is not bad, but 6000 and more would be better...i am asking this question to better help and not being a smart a**. are you wanting the higher rpm for racing application or for direct drive apps?

is it aircooled?the motor is rated as a TENVAO, which simply means - totally enclosed non ventalated air over. IP54 rating

motor is much bigger than the AC50... the larger size is for the more windings and and more back iron, new rotor design. in order to be tenvao and still have the high torque and hp ratings with the 94.5 eff rating.

constant torque is higher than the peaktorque of the AC50 the horse power at 5000 rpm is 50 hp, but the torque falls to 60 ftlbs.

the questions are:

1. weight we are still waiting on the complete build sheet, which lists the bearings, weight,and many other items.
2. price it is coming, we know but there are many factors that need to be thought through to be fair to the end user. please be patient.

any questions please feel free to call me
1-785-233-4750
kevin

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tomofreno

· #11 · Jan 10, 2011

From the drawing it appears the motor diameter is 15" with 18" flange, and length shaft end to shaft end is about 25", correct? If so, that is HUGE for most car conversions. Weight must be quite high also if the above dimensions are correct. It has much more torque than the AC50, no comparison, but no comparison on size and weight either it seems. You remarked it is a "bit larger than a 9" motor". Am I mis-reading the drawing dimensions, or is there also a smaller model??

My understanding is that the 144V on the controller Curtis is supposedly working on is the nominal battery pack voltage, so I would guess it would have a higher max DC voltage. For example, the 1238-7501 is for a nominal 96V pack but has max DC voltage of 130V.

tomofreno

· #12 · Jan 10, 2011 (Edited)

I see, so it is a much larger and more powerful motor than the HPEVS AC50 (8.5" diam), for larger vehicles. Breakdown torque 479 ft-lb!

tomofreno

· #13 · Jan 10, 2011 (Edited)

Kind of optimistic, no? A 37 cell pack would give around 125V rest voltage after full charge, leaving very little room for regen with 130V controller max. That will likely sag to about 110V or so at 650A pack current, so more like 70kW, 90+ H.P.
Edit:

if memory serves me correctly our torque output at 600 amps was 295 ftlbs up to around 1900 rpm.

So shaft power would be 295*1900*2pi/(60*0.7376) = 79.5kW or 106 H.P.

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #14 · Jan 10, 2011

hello tomofreno

you are correct. it is larger, but way more power. like i said in some earlier post is that this motor is designed for larger vehicles such as s10, ranger, and 1/2 ton trucks.
we have talked to baldor about smaller units, and it is possible. but right now we are going after the delivery and personal larger truck. we trying to break away from the idea that you have to use smaller vehicles. another reason we designed the new motor with the high eff.
yes it has high break down torge, now if we could get a controller to give us the 1000amps, look out

i just spoke with the curtis guys and asked them about the 144 volt unit, yes it is in development stages. he didnt have any time frame of when it will be released.
i asked peter from global industries to come onto the DIY and tell everyone about the ac controllers. i think there is a misconseption about how they work. if you put in 100vdc volts you get 70.7vac rms out put. so when you design your new ac vehilce and use their controller you need to know these items, it is not like dc.

thanks kevin

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tomofreno

· #15 · Jan 10, 2011 (Edited)

i asked peter from global industries to come onto the DIY and tell everyone about the ac controllers. i think there is a misconseption about how they work. if you put in 100vdc volts you get 70.7vac rms out put.

So I guess you are saying the line voltage amplitude is about equal DC battery pack voltage, so rms voltage is that divided by sqrt2. Then I guess the motor is delta connected so phase voltage is equal line voltage and phase current is line current divided by sqrt3, or a bit less than 375A max amplitude, 265A rms.

I assume your comment that max torque was out to “about 1900” rpm is for the Curtis controller 130VDC input limit, and the “knee” of the torque-speed curve would be out at higher rpm with the “144V” controller? Maybe around 2300 rpm if the max input to the controller is 160VDC. Seems the motor performance is quite limited by the present Curtis controller, and will give fairly anemic performance in a unloaded 1/2 ton pickup accelerating to 60 mph up a freeway on-ramp. The higher voltage one will help, but it really needs more current as you said - and more voltage for pep at highway speeds. Of course less performance than that is very acceptable to some, or for a commercial vehicle. Thanks for posting on it. Look forward to hearing more on your progress!

My conversion using an HPEVS AC50: http://www.evalbum.com/3060

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motor guy

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jan 10, 2011

hello tomofreno

the new baldor motor is designed with 72 vac 3 phase. on a 4 pole special designed rotor and back iron and windings. 3 phase motors are plus or minus 10% for optimum power. any more voltage and there are gains and loses, under 10% there are more loses.

on the curtis controller 1238R 650 amp, the out put is a rated rms value. not a peak. our nominal voltage for the pack is 102.4 vdc input with the rated rms out put of 72.39 vac 3 phase voltage.

our new motor is not designed to run on the 144 vdc input which is 101.8 vac rms. on a scope 72 volt has a peak of about 101.8 vac. but the controller out put is rms and our motor is designed to run on rms voltage.

we also designed this motor with lower voltage so a builder could use less cells. to help cut costs.

32 cells x 2.8 = 89.6 x.707 =63.34 rms
32 cells x 3.2 =102.4 x .707 rms =72.39 vac.
32x 3.5 = 112.0 x =.707 = 79.18 rms.
plus or minus 10% on the motor is 64.8 vac -79.18 vac.

we are useing 64 cells for a nominal 102.4 vdc and 400ahr

because of the snow and bad weather i was not able to finish up some of the details with baldor, hopefully tommorow.

thanks kevin

to help cut costs

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tomofreno

· #17 · Jan 11, 2011

3 phase motors are plus or minus 10% for optimum power. any more voltage and there are gains and loses, under 10% there are more loses.

Yes, but the motor controller varies V/f (rms voltage/frequency) to vary vehicle speed, so it will be run at much lower than 72VAC at slower speeds. What prevents the motor from being run at higher voltage? Are you just saying it will not operate at optimum efficiency there? I guess you are planning a lower speed vehicle with only 32 cells and 102VDC. Not for quick acceleration onto a highway.

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jan 11, 2011

hello

just because we are going to run 72 volt that doesnt mean less hp and torque. or less responsive.
the motor was designed for that voltage.lets just the same as; say a 10 hp 3 phase 215T frame 4 pole. this 10 hp can be hooked 230-460 vac. both voltages still develop the same hp,except the amps are higher on lower voltage.
now we are back to the rotor design, it depends on how it is designed and how much current it can handle with the amount slip that is built into the rotor. this is were we get eff.
current is torque. the more current you can induce into a rotor without blowing the end rings off it. the more torque you get.
more current makes torque and torque builds rotor speed which makes accerlation.

thanks kevin

i like good converstion/debate on the tech side. it always teaches me some thing new or reminds of something i had forgotton or had not thought about in while.
thanks again

tomofreno

· #19 · Jan 11, 2011

current is torque. the more current you can induce into a rotor without blowing the end rings off it. the more torque you get.
more current makes torque and torque builds rotor speed which makes accerlation.

Yes, and you need more voltage to put high current through the motor at higher rpm, which is why max available torque falls off at higher rpm. That can limit acceleration at highways speeds, say 60 mph or higher.

motor guy

Discussion Starter · #20 · Jan 11, 2011

hello all

this new baldor 72 vac motor is designed for the 0-2300 rpm torque curve on the new auto transmissions. this motor was not designed for racing applications. or direct drive applications. we have already talked to baldor about racing applications and smaller motors for smaller vehicles. but our priority is on the larger vehicles right now. there will be different designs in the future.

we are designing the 4l60E auto trans in our new build. 2003 silverado. we have a stand alone computer system just for the automatic transmission. we are using 64 cells. 32 seriesed then paralelled for a nominal voltage of 102vdc at 400 ahrs.

our thoughts on designing the new motor at the lower voltage was to help with the cost of getting larger lithium packs for higher volt motors, this motor was designed to have 148 ftlbs of torque at 362 amps from 0-1920 rpm. it will develope up to 400 ftlbs with an input of 72 vac at 1000 amps.

thanks kevin

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