open source hub motor/wheel motor

310942 Views 480 Replies 97 Participants Last post by major, May 21, 2013

unclematt

Discussion Starter · May 26, 2008

Hi All,
There was another thread where we have discussed the need for an open source wheel motor. The wheel motors that are currently in the media are not available to the public unless you want to spend obscene amounts of money, if even then. So I think it would be great for all of us to collaborate on creating an open source set of plans to enable EVers to create their own wheel motors.

So lets start the show:

1) We need a list of objectives to meet with our wheel motor.

2) We need sources for raw materials and components.

3) We also need to find or design controllers to run our wheel motor.

So please offer links and expertise to accomplish this.

I personally think we need a brushless motor, and it needs to put out at least 40kW of power. It also needs regenerative capability, and if possible I would like to do away with friction brakes entirely.

Let the creativity begin!

:-D

461 - 480 of 481 Posts

Gulah

· #461 · Jul 26, 2011

Thanks for answering my questions, yes one of my questions was about top speed, I wanted to believe that with the right controller, or set of controllers and number of motors in the car it would be possible. I guess it isn't then

Too bad, it's a shame really, still these engines are useful, but only for certain purposes.

But I have a hope, that some day hub motors will be a possible option in a EV conversion.

I know that there are hub motors good enough for highway speed, there was that insane mini, but the problem is the price.

Let's wait and see.

Arlo

· #462 · Aug 1, 2011

I have been thinking about this for 4 years. What I have seen from building some electric motorcycles and bicycles that hub motors are more weight for less power they are easier to control. (brushless controller wise) But I think the best way is to gear reduce a motor to each wheel and then spin the motor faster this way you can have higher HP with less weight!

battlewagon

· #463 · Dec 21, 2011

I'm sorry I'm sure this has been covered or is an unreasonable concept, but what is wrong with mounting two motors on the rear drive axle (outside of the hub)?

are there DC motors capable of the necessary performance in a dual setup?

Arlo

· #464 · Dec 22, 2011 (Edited)

battlewagon said:
I'm sorry I'm sure this has been covered or is an unreasonable concept, but what is wrong with mounting two motors on the rear drive axle (outside of the hub)?

are there DC motors capable of the necessary performance in a dual setup?

The Rimac concept one uses 4 individual motors inboard mounted driving through one stage reduction to cv axles.
http://www.rimac-automobili.com/

sokon

· #465 · Dec 22, 2011

thesilverring said:
Does anybody have an IEEE membership? If so you could view this article[...]
This is the sort of thing you are talking about right?
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?tp=&arnumber=497248&isnumber=10700

there you go (see attached)

aj2k3

· #466 · Dec 29, 2011

Good evening everyone,
I still have not read all of the pages in this particular thread (though I fully intend to), I did wish to introduce myself and put out there what my project idea is and possibly get some feedback from you guys.
I drive a 2006 Scion tC which is a 4 cylinder, FWD, 2 door hatch. 160 HP. I was thinking of making it a hybrid and putting two in wheel/hub motors for the rear wheels (RWD). I'm not sure if this is possible as there is the obstacle of synergy between a combustible engine and two electric drive wheel motors.
Nevertheless, its a pleasure to meet you all and I look forward to learning what I can.

major

· #467 · Dec 30, 2011

aj2k3 said:
I still have not read all of the pages in this particular thread (though I fully intend to),

Hi aj and welcome,

Remember as you read these 466 posts that it has been three and a half years since it was started and zero progress has been made.

Regards,

major

UncleBuck

· #468 · Jan 4, 2012

Hi Guy's... Trying the same project off myself as I just bought an Insurance accident damaged BMW X 5 for £3K. The front end, engine, gearbox are totalled so got it really cheap !... With that, though of making it Electric.

4 In hub AC motors like those ?
http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2010/03/australian-wheel-motor-company-prepares.html

Question I have is as well as driving the wheels, could they also drive a generator to help keep the batteries charged, after all every little helps ?

I was thinking on keeping the full electric pack, along with the alternator to somehow keep that side of things the same, thus being supplied by the 12v battery and the alternator keeping that topped up !

From reading, and it’s a lot ! I feel personally the in hub wheel motor is the best way forward. After that, it’s the battery pack ? then the generation side as I feel as much free energy you can muster is a must to help the batteries stay topped up the better, so at some point Super Capacitors are going to be introduced, maybe to trickle feed the battery pack too ? Then the In house charging to charge at home !

Any more ideas to pencil in….

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bjfreeman

· #469 · Jan 6, 2012 (Edited)

UncleBuck said:
Hi Guy's... Trying the same project off myself as I just bought an Insurance accident damaged BMW X 5 for £3K. The front end, engine, gearbox are totalled so got it really cheap !... With that, though of making it Electric.

4 In hub AC motors like those ?
http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2010/03/australian-wheel-motor-company-prepares.html

Question I have is as well as driving the wheels, could they also drive a generator to help keep the batteries charged, after all every little helps ?

I was thinking on keeping the full electric pack, along with the alternator to somehow keep that side of things the same, thus being supplied by the 12v battery and the alternator keeping that topped up !

From reading, and it’s a lot ! I feel personally the in hub wheel motor is the best way forward. After that, it’s the battery pack ? then the generation side as I feel as much free energy you can muster is a must to help the batteries stay topped up the better, so at some point Super Capacitors are going to be introduced, maybe to trickle feed the battery pack too ? Then the In house charging to charge at home !

Any more ideas to pencil in….

Just a note that link was march 2011. I think they ran into heat problems if they ever got that far.
400 hp per wheel is 800 Hp. Not even the 40 ft converted bus uses that much HP going up a mountain grade, passing at highway speeds.
400 Hp = 298.4KW of energy. do the math on Batteries even at 765 Volts
http://www.proteanelectric.com/?page_id=158&post=229
is another.
There already using Ultra caps for Hybrid buses, for the first 10 sec start. These packs are about 3 ftX3ft by 5ft in size.
there is no free energy, only energy converted to one form or another. and each conversion you loose energy in heat.
Even Solar has to come from a big Hydrogen furnace in the sky. and it is burning out, though it be million of years.
Back to more practical things.
at most a Generator is 80-90% efficient, you still have lost power.
you have friction of mechanical parts,not to mention eddy currents.
with all that said, I am using Traction Motor (200KW) that are fluid cooled for 4 wheel drive direct drive (in the prototype stage, but no implemented yet) I have been using the same Traction motors for Generator and driving, my gear box for a few years, to get actual usage data. I am showing about a 40% usable power to the rear wheels, or about 80KW
it is not as efficient as if I left the Transmission in.
My goal is not to have a more efficient system, but one that can run off many power/ fuel sources.
The most recent actual example of long range is the Tesla, in cars. it is all electric you charge as you go.

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aj2k3

· #470 · Jan 15, 2012

UncleBuck said:
Hi Guy's... Trying the same project off myself as I just bought an Insurance accident damaged BMW X 5 for £3K. The front end, engine, gearbox are totalled so got it really cheap !... With that, though of making it Electric.

4 In hub AC motors like those ?
http://electric-vehicles-cars-bikes.blogspot.com/2010/03/australian-wheel-motor-company-prepares.html

Question I have is as well as driving the wheels, could they also drive a generator to help keep the batteries charged, after all every little helps ?

I was thinking on keeping the full electric pack, along with the alternator to somehow keep that side of things the same, thus being supplied by the 12v battery and the alternator keeping that topped up !

From reading, and it’s a lot ! I feel personally the in hub wheel motor is the best way forward. After that, it’s the battery pack ? then the generation side as I feel as much free energy you can muster is a must to help the batteries stay topped up the better, so at some point Super Capacitors are going to be introduced, maybe to trickle feed the battery pack too ? Then the In house charging to charge at home !

Any more ideas to pencil in….

Hi Buck,
I like your idea of thinking. A friend of mine just totaled his BMW so if you're going to embark on a full scale project, starting with a good platform like the BMW is a classic choice.Now, bjfreeman mentioned the voltage to HP requirements and draw problems and does have a good point, 800HP RWD is a lot, but if you're able to supply the power, it would be some amazing power!You had also mentioned the possibility to utilizing the vehicle itself to recharge the battery by various means. I think if you want an EV, go all in. I'd have solar panels, friction brakes, etc. to help replenish teh energy lost by consumption.

I did want to pose a question to everyone here, magnet generators for free energy. I can't tell if it's a hoax or possible. The label "perpetual motion" gets thrown around a lot, but some great minds throughout history have dabbled with the idea and some have even proven some promising results. Just curious...I believe we have enough people here to really make a difference in how we move about the planet and provide means for ourselves.

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praondefui

· #471 · Mar 16, 2012

aj2k3 said:
I did want to pose a question to everyone here, magnet generators for free energy. I can't tell if it's a hoax or possible.

It's a hoax. Don't waste your time. After an initial starting pulse they may run for a while, but eventually they stop. Think of the apparent "free energy" of permanent magnets as potential energy. Once you attracted an object with a magnet work has to be done to separate them again. Much like gravity.

If you try to obtain more information about the magnetic generator all you will get is an expensive and totally useless ebook.

aj2k3

· #472 · Mar 16, 2012

Thank you for getting back to me, I do appreciate it.

So, has anyone made any progress on anything??

Hillbilly

· #473 · Feb 6, 2013

2

MTSU Researchers have built a pretty awesome little setup.

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-news/doityourself-hybrid-20120725-22pc7.html

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=369492

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karlos

· #474 · Feb 6, 2013

Thanks for that Hillbilly, most impressive solution which I would love to know more about. Looks like they used a couple of Kelly controllers?
It almost looks so simple the DIYer could make something similar that works.

Anyone care to explain how the stator would work in relation to the permanent magnets?

Hillbilly

· #475 · Feb 7, 2013

karlos said:
Thanks for that Hillbilly, most impressive solution which I would love to know more about. Looks like they used a couple of Kelly controllers?
It almost looks so simple the DIYer could make something similar that works.

Anyone care to explain how the stator would work in relation to the permanent magnets?

You would need to set up some "Poles" probably at least three. Place some halbach sensors to tell the controller where the rotor is in relationship to the stator, and then switch the poles of the stator on and off in sequence to create flux.

Craig Carmichael has some detailed plans for free at:

http://www.ElectricHubcap.com

Cheers,

Hillbilly

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freddy

· #476 · May 18, 2013

Hi Everyone,
Just joined but been following ideas for a while
I spoke to Dr Charles Perry Mid Tenersee State University (MTSU) last month who is heading up the project on the in wheel motor and he's run into problems hence no news since July 2012. He's of the opinion that the motor needs to be a switched reluctance motor (SRM) as with any DC/AC motor with magnets you get back EMF (?)i.e. increased drag/fuel consumption which you don't get with an SRM. He's looking for funding (around $250,000) so if you know anyone?
Also I have spoken to Protean (I am based in the UK and they are local) and they are not interested in talking to anyone with less than a fleet of vehicles. I'm in touch with a Chinese outfit http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/index.asp and they have a motor for $1550 then you need the controller. I am reluctant to purchase 2 for testing for reasons already given by other members (overheating etc) so if anyone has an update on reliable and lower cost motors I am interested. My project is a Toyota MR2 which I am planning to convert to a small diesel with electric motors. At a recent Hannover Messe they were demonstrating the VW XL1 which does 314mpg - all current technology - 800cc engine +24hp electric motor

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Hillbilly

· #477 · May 21, 2013

Thanks for the link Freddy. I think I may have to try two of those Chinese Units to put into the rear wheels of my '01 VW Jetta TDI. It already gets 45 mpg highway, I may be able to get my canyon driving numbers up a bit with some E-assist. Or maybe a motorcyle?

I think MTSU should launch some sort of crowd funding effort to get their project off the ground. Who knows, I may try to find the time to help.

If you're going to convert an MR2 to diesel, you should go to this site if you haven't already: www.tdiclub.com

Keep us posted! Start a build thread when you get going!

freddy

· #478 · May 21, 2013

Hi Hillbilly
Thanks for the response and link on the MR2 - will study later - Re: Dr Charles Perry he did mention he was looking for funding I emailed him some suggestions but I'm UK based and don't know what facilities are available in the US - he is amenable by phone but has not replied to my emails (maybe inundated as his Youtube video is everywhere). I'm sure a homegrown solution would be more appealing than a Chinese one - I have tried to get the Chinese to pass on info for a UK fitter/user to compare notes etc but they will not oblige and I have had problems with reliability with Chinese products in the past (hydraulics products)
Re:in wheel - you may want to check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GahcFeTCZgc&feature=endscreen&NR=1 this guy has a revolutionery approach to Liion batteries smaller footprint higher power - he's behind zeromotorbikes - there's an amusing video of him demo product at Jay Leno's garage doing wheelies on his electric bike ( and leaving some very large black tyre tracks on his white floor - JL not amused!)
Coincidentally I am talking to a garage that does TDi conversions- he's not done an MR2 but is up to the challenge - why not I'm paying
Re: VW Jetta - do you have tuning/remap boxes in the US - I have a Ford Mondeo 2 litre TDCi 115bhp with one which has improved from 53mpg combined to now 60mpg (test is fill to brim every time I fill up)

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major

· #479 · May 21, 2013

Hillbilly & freddy,

You're wasting your time. The MTSU motor is a joke. Read this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20591&highlight=wheelmotor Too bad that a lot of the photos are gone from it. But it still should be informative and amusing.

major

freddy

· #480 · May 21, 2013

major said:
Hillbilly & freddy,

You're wasting your time. The MTSU motor is a joke. Read this thread: http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20591&highlight=wheelmotor Too bad that a lot of the photos are gone from it. But it still should be informative and amusing.

major

Thank you major but I do not see any reference to MTSU in your link - If you have useful information about this motor then please share it - have you spoken to Dr Perry and voiced/expressed your doubts to him? MTSU is not the only in wheel technology organisation I am in direct contact with. Are you talking to any? The world is full of tyre kickers and cynics, I hope you are not one but are able to bring positive and constructive information to the forum. So please qualify your comments.
Cheers

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