[madderscience]

Welcome fellow WA resident-

The travelall is a cool truck, (I still retain fond memories of my 77 ramcharger but it had to go when I bought my 61 land rover) but will suffer from the challenges of any large, heavy, non-aerodynamic vehicle when you look at it from an EV conversion perspective. advantages are plenty of space for batteries/components, and (if you are intent on keeping 4wd) the divorced transfer case could be a useful configuration. The ICE components in that truck are big enough to offset a lot of battery weight in their removal. You could lose a few hundred pounds more weight going to 2wd but that would also require sourcing a new front axle, etc. etc. At minimum, make sure the truck has freewheeling hubs in the front if you keep the 4wd.

Looking at where you are, if you are on roads where you won't need to drive 60mph to keep up with traffic, that is an advantage too, since aerodynamic drag increases with the square of speed, or roughly speaking, 10mph increase in speed is a 30% increase in drag.

Budget will be a big factor in what you try, but in any case the best battery right now (quality and quantity for $) is surplus/salvaged leaf cells. You would need at least 60kwh worth, or two 2016 leafs, or 2.5 earlier leaf packs. Probably in the not too distant future it will be easier to retrofit/reconfigure tesla modules, but people are still working on the electronics care and feeding to make them work reliably outside of the original tesla vehicle.

As for drivetrain, a DC drivetrain could be done and you would need at minimum a single 11"motor, or dual 9's. Nothing smaller than a Z1K controller would do. AC drivetrains are better in many ways, but also pricier and you do give up some low end torque. If you have significant hills though it could be a great advantage to get regenerative braking. A dual stack remy would be a great motor setup, but you are looking at significant $ for the motor and inverter.

The best example to build from is another local guy, who has converted a 90's F250 extra cab 4x4 to electric. The truck has gone through a couple battery configurations but currently has about 60kwh worth of leaf cells in it. It gets about 80 mile range at freeway speed. This truck is probably somewhat worse than yours weight and aero wise but is the best example to go from. His truck can be seen at:

http://www.evalbum.com/2898

Good luck

 

[gehidore]

Welcome fellow WA resident

It's a beautiful place!

(if you are intent on keeping 4wd) the divorced transfer case could be a useful configuration. The ICE components in that truck are big enough to offset a lot of battery weight in their removal. You could lose a few hundred pounds more weight going to 2wd but that would also require sourcing a new front axle, etc. etc. At minimum, make sure the truck has freewheeling hubs in the front if you keep the 4wd.

I do need the 4wd for winter months as we get more snow than the surrounding area and I still need to get to work on those days. So perhaps a month out of the year it ever risk 4x4 being engaged and that would be for short low speed periods.

Sorry I'm not sure what "ICE Components" are in the context of already being in the vehicle.

She has normally free wheeling, manual locking hubs and the t-case has 2 High, 4 High, 4 Low, and neutral.

Looking at where you are, if you are on roads where you won't need to drive 60mph to keep up with traffic, that is an advantage too, since aerodynamic drag increases with the square of speed, or roughly speaking, 10mph increase in speed is a 30% increase in drag.

all but 5 miles of my daily commute is 55mph posted roads which most of us travel at 58-60, the rest is sub 35mph or 70mph I-5.

Budget will be a big factor in what you try, but in any case the best battery right now (quality and quantity for $) is surplus/salvaged leaf cells. You would need at least 60kwh worth, or two 2016 leafs, or 2.5 earlier leaf packs. Probably in the not too distant future it will be easier to retrofit/reconfigure tesla modules, but people are still working on the electronics care and feeding to make them work reliably outside of the original tesla vehicle.

As for drivetrain, a DC drivetrain could be done and you would need at minimum a single 11"motor, or dual 9's. Nothing smaller than a Z1K controller would do. AC drivetrains are better in many ways, but also pricier and you do give up some low end torque. If you have significant hills though it could be a great advantage to get regenerative braking. A dual stack remy would be a great motor setup, but you are looking at significant $ for the motor and inverter.

The best example to build from is another local guy, who has converted a 90's F250 extra cab 4x4 to electric. The truck has gone through a couple battery configurations but currently has about 60kwh worth of leaf cells in it. It gets about 80 mile range at freeway speed. This truck is probably somewhat worse than yours weight and aero wise but is the best example to go from. His truck can be seen at:

http://www.evalbum.com/2898

Good luck

That's a rather detailed gallery on that ford and gives me hope outside of that 28k price range they've estimated. My hope is to learn from others mistakes and avoid pitfalls which only increase costs.

One thing that puzzles me is the back and forth I see with Transmission VS None. I think with the divorced transfer case I'm basically in a position to use any transmission, or none, that I want as long as it can handle the torque and weight of the vehicle.

I also failed to mention I'm nearly certain that my pinion gears are 4.11 - however for ~400USD I could switch to 3.07 or 3.08 if that would benefit a direct to transfer case drive?

I'm still not even sure what I could come up with for a total budget at this point - so I'd like to flesh this out as both minimal sane budget and we'll say a moderate do it all right budget.

I've also considered as much as solar to increase range and decrease dependencies on public charging as I've access to 4 panel systems which are advertised to output 110VAC @ 15A and as before if it's at all practical someday it would be planned to add in a small genset to again break away from grid dependencies. I don't know why I'm thinking that far future...

 

[nucleus]

1969 International Harvester Travelall conversion idea

1) Pull out the engine, transmission, transfer case, fuel tanks and exhaust.

2) Buy a wrecked Tesla.

3) Put the rear motor from the Tesla approximately where your transfer case is now.

4) Adapt your driveshafts to mate with your new Tesla unit.

5) Fill in the remaining spaces underneath your Travelall with Tesla battery modules and charger. Use the entire Tesla battery.

6) Use .020 AlClad aluminium with nutplates to seal of the entire bottom for weather protection and aerodynamic improvement.

7) Finish off and carpet the remaining space under the hood to use as a frunk.

8) Once you have finished all of the above, you will have multiple options available to you for Tesla battery and motor control.

9) Take a bow, you have built an AWD 450 HP Travelall.

 

[gehidore]

Welcome fellow WA resident-

No place I'd rather be!

...if you are intent on keeping 4wd the divorced transfer case could be a useful configuration. ... At minimum, make sure the truck has freewheeling hubs in the front if you keep the 4wd.

the 4 wheel drive is important to me with the amount of snow we get. However I'd estimate 40-48 weeks a year it'd be in 2wd. Hubs are manual switch between free and locked.

Looking at where you are, if you are on roads where you won't need to drive 60mph to keep up with traffic, that is an advantage too, since aerodynamic drag increases with the square of speed, or roughly speaking, 10mph increase in speed is a 30% increase in drag.

On a one way trip to work it'd be 33-35 miles @ a posted 55mph which most travel at 57-59mph with another 3 miles at posted 70mph and a 2 miles at 35mph.

Budget will be a big factor in what you try

10kUSD doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but mostly I'm interested in seeing what the best budget build would look like for cost and what the "done right" build would look like.

...but in any case the best battery right now (quality and quantity for $) is surplus/salvaged leaf cells. You would need at least 60kwh worth, or two 2016 leafs, or 2.5 earlier leaf packs. Probably in the not too distant future it will be easier to retrofit/reconfigure tesla modules, but people are still working on the electronics care and feeding to make them work reliably outside of the original tesla vehicle.

As for drivetrain, a DC drivetrain could be done and you would need at minimum a single 11"motor, or dual 9's. Nothing smaller than a Z1K controller would do. AC drivetrains are better in many ways, but also pricier and you do give up some low end torque. If you have significant hills though it could be a great advantage to get regenerative braking. A dual stack remy would be a great motor setup, but you are looking at significant $ for the motor and inverter.

The best example to build from is another local guy, who has converted a 90's F250 extra cab 4x4 to electric. The truck has gone through a couple battery configurations but currently has about 60kwh worth of leaf cells in it. It gets about 80 mile range at freeway speed. This truck is probably somewhat worse than yours weight and aero wise but is the best example to go from. His truck can be seen at:

http://www.evalbum.com/2898

Good luck

All in all I think this is doable and I appreciate the links to regenerative braking and the electric ford.

I'm curious if there would be any value to deleting the transfer case and running a motor on each drive line while primary driving would be off the rear axle then when 4x4 is needed engage the hubs and the secondary motor driving the front wheels?

I still find interest in things like a genset that might produce 50%+ of the required power to travel at highway speed in hopes that it provides a way to limp or charge without the dependency of the public infrastructure, or lack thereof.

Trying to post this reply again as it seems to have been lost to the land of inactive admins...

 

[gehidore]

Re: 1969 International Harvester Travelall conversion idea

1) Pull out the engine, transmission, transfer case, fuel tanks and exhaust.

2) Buy a wrecked Tesla.

3) Put the rear motor from the Tesla approximately where your transfer case is now.

4) Adapt your driveshafts to mate with your new Tesla unit.

5) Fill in the remaining spaces underneath your Travelall with Tesla battery modules and charger. Use the entire Tesla battery.

6) Use .020 AlClad aluminium with nutplates to seal of the entire bottom for weather protection and aerodynamic improvement.

7) Finish off and carpet the remaining space under the hood to use as a frunk.

8) Once you have finished all of the above, you will have multiple options available to you for Tesla battery and motor control.

9) Take a bow, you have built an AWD 450 HP Travelall.

This actually sounds like a ton of fun if one could find a rolled tesla that wasn't obliterated...

 

[madderscience]

The ideal build I was describing (2 leaf packs, dual remy motor, plus everything else) is probably a $30-40K build, unfortunately. it is totally possible to do an EV these days for $10K, even using a leaf pack, but to get the range you want out of it with that budget you'd have to start with a much smaller, more efficient vehicle.

If you can find an abandoned build/conversion sometimes that is the cheapest way to get parts, but you probably aren't going to find state-of-the-art parts that way, and you will almost never find good batteries that way.

FWIW an off-lease 2013-2015 leaf with about an 80 mile range can be had well under $10K right now Do keep in mind though that 70 miles of range on a sunny warm day uses about the same energy as 55-60 miles in cold and rain, and if its snowing, it gets much worse. so if you have a vehicle with just enough range in good conditions, you'll still either need to find charging or keep it garaged when the conditions aren't ideal.

The 2016+ leafs have a 30kwh pack, and a bit over 100 miles range. when those start coming off lease, they will be very competitively priced as well, since the 2018 leafs have a much larger battery pack.

 

[gehidore]

The ideal build I was describing (2 leaf packs, dual remy motor, plus everything else) is probably a $30-40K build, unfortunately.

Confirmed my fears of obscene costs. Thanks for your input!

If I moved my target range to say 30 or 50 miles what might that change your estimate of the cost to be? Since I can always add more power storage later...

 

[Duncan]

Hi
You can certainly meet those requirements
If I was doing that now I would be looking for a crashed EV and simply use the parts

A Leaf would give you similar performance to the original - if you want 4WD then use two Leaf's

I believe that complete working Leafs are down at the $5000 mark now so damaged ones should be available

I would be looking at using the entire motor/gearbox/diff unit at both ends


A Tesla would be more fun! - and maybe not that much more expensive - the aluminium body means that repairs are expensive and they do get written off without a lot of damage
I have seen them for about $12000

For a Leaf you could try and con the electronics into believing that it's all still in the Leaf

For the Tesla you would probably have to swap over the "brainboard" - several people on this site are working on bits to do that

In either case getting the whole car would be a good idea - and keep all of the electronic bits until you are SURE you don't need them

 

[gehidore]

Hi
You can certainly meet those requirements
If I was doing that now I would be looking for a crashed EV and simply use the parts

A Leaf would give you similar performance to the original - if you want 4WD then use two Leaf's

I believe that complete working Leafs are down at the $5000 mark now so damaged ones should be available

I would be looking at using the entire motor/gearbox/diff unit at both ends

I'm not sure I follow what you mean given the weight of the IHC vs a leaf?

A Tesla would be more fun! - and maybe not that much more expensive - the aluminium body means that repairs are expensive and they do get written off without a lot of damage
I have seen them for about $12000

I was poking around on some salvage sites today and saw several 2016's for between 5000$ and 15000$ this actually has me thinking it wouldn't hurt to be watching for one in the right shape and in the mean time fix up the issues the current power plant has.

For a Leaf you could try and con the electronics into believing that it's all still in the Leaf

For the Tesla you would probably have to swap over the "brainboard" - several people on this site are working on bits to do that

In either case getting the whole car would be a good idea - and keep all of the electronic bits until you are SURE you don't need them

That was my next concern now that I had realized the tesla concepts aren't just witty sarcasm how one might use the tesla 'guts'.

There was also mention of "awd" by replacing the transfer case and lengthening the drivelines, while I can see this working it would also require swapping the front knuckle u-joints with CV's or you'd be replacing U-joints frequently which while possible would easily add 2k to the total cost... can't say it's a bad addition. Assuming the Tesla motor is dual output shaft can it handle having nothing connected without premature bearing failure on that shaft?

 

[Duncan]

Hi
The Leaf is about the same power as your old wagon - little bit less but the electric torque will make up for that - so I would expect similar performance (with one Leaf - with two.....)

I would be dropping the Leaf or Tesla units in place of your diffs - so the motor was transverse (just as in the Leaf/Tesla) and coupling your driveshafts up to the Leaf/Tesla ones

You end up with two motors each driving two wheels - DO NOT worry about coupling them together and getting them so that they go at the same speed - the ground will do that for you

The idea of putting a Tesla motor in the middle longitudinally and driving your current diffs strikes me as hard work

 

[gehidore]

I would be dropping the Leaf or Tesla units in place of your diffs - so the motor was transverse (just as in the Leaf/Tesla) and coupling your driveshafts up to the Leaf/Tesla ones

You end up with two motors each driving two wheels - DO NOT worry about coupling them together and getting them so that they go at the same speed - the ground will do that for you

The idea of putting a Tesla motor in the middle longitudinally and driving your current diffs strikes me as hard work

It seems if this was an IFS/IRS rather than straight axle the idea of a traverse motor would be a trivial swap. Perhaps less trivial than what my lack of knowledge of the motors says is not much more than motor mounts, output shaft yokes and drive shafts with the single suggested by nucleus tesla motor in place of transfer case. Ignoring the fact that it would then require machining of the front axle internal races to allow replacing the u-joint inner axle with CV joint axle.

Perhaps the most effective plan would be to find something with IFS/IRS and swap out those components moving the whole vehicle to both independent suspension and AWD direct drive units traverse as they're used in the donor vehicles.

I don't see any way that this thing wont be a ton of work regardless of how it's done.

 

[brian_]

There was also mention of "awd" by replacing the transfer case and lengthening the drivelines...

I assume this is the scheme which turns the Telsa motor/transaxle unit 90 degrees, so that the outputs to the wheels become outputs to the axles. This sort of arrangement (although usually with a gas engine and transaxle) has been done quite a few times; however:

• packaging is a challenge - can the Tesla unit really sit under the floor, even in the transmission tunnel?
• the Tesla unit is geared to run the wheels, so adding the final drive reduction results in a very low-geared vehicle

Assuming the Tesla motor is dual output shaft can it handle having nothing connected without premature bearing failure on that shaft?

The two output shafts of the motor/tranxaxle unit are the outputs of a conventional differential. If nothing is attached to one output, that one just spins and no torque can be put out to either shaft. This leaves two choices:

1. use both outputs, such as in the normal installation to run two wheels, or in the full-time AWD setup above in which one output goes to each axle
2. replace the differential with a spool - which would need to be custom-built, because no one will have one in production for a Tesla

If you mean just the motor by itself, then no, it doesn't have a double-ended shaft, and no motor from a production EV will.

 

[gehidore]

• packaging is a challenge - can the Tesla unit really sit under the floor, even
  in the transmission tunnel?

In the case of this vehicle there is ample space for near anything under it. I can roll from one side of the vehicle to the other under it without touching anything but the ground and I'm not a tiny person. Without measuring - I'll do that later - there's easily 14w"x 8h" recess which makes up the transmission / transfer case tunnel add another 6-7" for frame depth and you've got essentially a 14"x 14" tunnel to put things.

• the Tesla unit is geared to run the wheels, so adding the final drive reduction results in a very low-geared vehicle

Certainly worth noting!

• use both outputs, such as in the normal installation to run two wheels, or in the full-time AWD setup above in which one output goes to each axle

Seems the options are:

• swap out entire rolling gear/suspension for IFS/IRS with CV axles and harvesting parts from an AWD tesla's drive train direct driving the wheels from there.
• harvest from AWD tesla and remove diff from tesla motor using the motor to directly drive each axle which - requires machining a pair of yokes to mount to each motor output shaft.
• harvest RWD tesla motor to drive the divorced transfer case - requires machining a yoke for the motor output shaft

• replace the differential with a spool - which would need to be custom-built, because no one will have one in production for a Tesla

If you mean just the motor by itself, then no, it doesn't have a double-ended shaft, and no motor from a production EV will.

Not sure what you mean by a spool, google fails me on the subject coupled with electric motors.

Thanks for the clarification regarding the motor having it's own differential vs dual output shafts.

 

[brian_]

Not sure what you mean by a spool, google fails me on the subject coupled with electric motors.

... because it's not about electric motors.
I mean the solid replacement for the spider, spider gears, and side gears of a conventional differential. The same thing that a drag racer puts in the rear axle so one wheel won't spin on the strip; the same thing that an off-roader puts in an axle of a vehicle never driven on pavement to keep one wheel from spinning.
Image from random online discussion, showing stock ring gear bolted to spool in typical axle housing, replacing differential gears:

 

[brian_]

In the case of this vehicle there is ample space for near anything under it. I can roll from one side of the vehicle to the other under it without touching anything but the ground and I'm not a tiny person. Without measuring - I'll do that later - there's easily 14w"x 8h" recess which makes up the transmission / transfer case tunnel add another 6-7" for frame depth and you've got essentially a 14"x 14" tunnel to put things.

That sounds enormous, but I think if you look at the threads in this forum where people share the dimensions of a Tesla drive unit - even the "small" motor versions, you might be surprised how large they are!

 

[brian_]

Seems the options are:

• swap out entire rolling gear/suspension for IFS/IRS with CV axles and harvesting parts from an AWD tesla's drive train direct driving the wheels from there.

I agree - that's the all-out swap approach. Of course it means that nothing is left of the original vehicle other than the body and some of the frame... and you either use the Tesla suspension (and have relatively little ground clearance or wheel travel) or fit some other complete independent suspension.

• harvest from AWD tesla and remove diff from tesla motor using the motor to directly drive each axle which - requires machining a pair of yokes to mount to each motor output shaft.

If I understand this correctly, that's using only one Tesla drive unit to drive the front and rear driveshafts. If so, the differential can stay in (giving you full-time AWD with an open centre diff); if you replace the diff with a spool you're stuck in 4WD with no centre diff and thus no ability to turn on anything but loose surfaces. A lockable diff in the Tesla case would be ideal, but the chances of finding something that would fit seem very low.

• harvest RWD tesla motor to drive the divorced transfer case - requires machining a yoke for the motor output shaft

... or either the front motor or the rear motor of an AWD Tesla, because even a Tesla front motor is more powerful than the stock Travelall engine. The next problem is that you have only the final drive reduction of the axles (plus the transfer case reduction when in low range), and that gearing is way too tall to effectively use the Tesla motor. The stock Tesla Model S overall gearing is about 9.7:1, and the stock axle ratio apparently ranges from 3.07:1 to 4.09:1, so you would need at least 2.4:1 additional reduction from something just to match stock Tesla gearing. Since the Tesla is geared for a software-limited maximum speed of 250 km/h (155 mph) - and faster is possible without destroying the motor - more reduction gearing would be suitable.

The gearing problem is that like most production EVs, the Tesla motor comes with a two-stage reduction gearbox (9.7:1 in this case), and to replace an engine and transmission it needs only one stage of that reduction... but it does need one stage (about 3:1 or 4:1 would work) to be suitable.

 

[gehidore]

... because it's not about electric motors.
I mean the solid replacement for the spider, spider gears, and side gears of a conventional differential.

I knew I was missing something obvious, that spool I'm familiar with, pardon my density.

That sounds enormous, but I think if you look at the threads in this forum where people share the dimensions of a Tesla drive unit - even the "small" motor versions, you might be surprised how large they are!

Just took measurements

• Engine compartment above frame between fenders 37w*37d*28h"
• Transmission tube between and including frame height 16w*20d*17h" tapered to 14w*14h" at the tail
• distance bewteen transmission and transfer case ~18"
• Transfer case tube between and including frame height 16w*12d*14h"
• frame inner width 28"
• saddle bag area outside of frame below seats one per side14w*60d*7h"

Also snapped some pictures

If I understand this correctly, that's using only one Tesla drive unit to drive the front and rear driveshafts. If so, the differential can stay in (giving you full-time AWD with an open centre diff); if you replace the diff with a spool you're stuck in 4WD with no centre diff and thus no ability to turn on anything but loose surfaces. A lockable diff in the Tesla case would be ideal, but the chances of finding something that would fit seem very low.

I was thinking in this example in my list that I would be using two motors one on each drive line to the existing complete axles and making the front one switchable in the same sense that the transfer case can be 2wd or 4wd. at this point likely consuming twice the power to operate in 4wd. I think you might also run into synchronization issues without mounting something to monitor axle/motor speed?

... or either the front motor or the rear motor of an AWD Tesla, because even a Tesla front motor is more powerful than the stock Travelall engine. The next problem is that you have only the final drive reduction of the axles (plus the transfer case reduction when in low range), and that gearing is way too tall to effectively use the Tesla motor. The stock Tesla Model S overall gearing is about 9.7:1, and the stock axle ratio apparently ranges from 3.07:1 to 4.09:1, so you would need at least 2.4:1 additional reduction from something just to match stock Tesla gearing. Since the Tesla is geared for a software-limited maximum speed of 250 km/h (155 mph) - and faster is possible without destroying the motor - more reduction gearing would be suitable.

The gearing problem is that like most production EVs, the Tesla motor comes with a two-stage reduction gearbox (9.7:1 in this case), and to replace an engine and transmission it needs only one stage of that reduction... but it does need one stage (about 3:1 or 4:1 would work) to be suitable.

In the 'options' I was listing I had assumed that only the first one would retain the stock diff on the tesla motors, the others would be directly driving the transfer case which has 1:1 2 high 4 high and 1.96:1 4 low or the axles which currently have 4.11:1 ratio with the option to switch to 3.07:1 or go 5+:1 if necessary. Does that seem plausible?

With the option to use front or rear in AWD perhaps the ideal donor would also be AWD even if I only require a single motor given I'd then have a spare / replacement for future use or another you probably shouldn't bother with ev on that type conversion.

 

[nucleus]

Putting motors front and rear changes the entire suspension and steering of the vehicle.

Even if you have to modify some metal, replacing the transfer case with a Tesla drive unit is a much simpler prospect.

Having a center differential makes the AWD more fuel efficient and better driving than the stock four wheel drive.

Gearing is an issue with this approach for sure. The Tesla drive unit will give about the equivalent of about first gear in the Travelall.

With the current 4.11 axles, and some tall 37 inch tires, you max out at only 44 MPH, the stock ratio 3.07 gets you to 55 MPH.

So unless you are ok with 55 MPH, we need taller tires or, the better option is to change the final drive ratio in the Tesla box. Saleen went the other way way 11.39, so we just need to swap to a lower ratio.

 

[gehidore]

Putting motors front and rear changes the entire suspension and steering of the vehicle.

Even if you have to modify some metal, replacing the transfer case with a Tesla drive unit is a much simpler prospect.

Having a center differential makes the AWD more fuel efficient and better driving than the stock four wheel drive.

Not sure how that changes both suspension and steering if I'm mounting them center of mass with stock axles and only engaging the front motor when hubs are locked and under 35mph for those times you might benefit from 4wd

Gearing is an issue with this approach for sure. The Tesla drive unit will give about the equivalent of about first gear in the Travelall.

I presume you're talking about mounting the motor and drive unit 90 degrees from stock tesla and driving the axles from that? Or am I misunderstanding the tesla motor? would it not be possible to simply strip the drive unit from the motor and direct drive some axles or the transfer case with the motor itself? Using the ring and pinion for the necessary reduction?

With the current 4.11 axles, and some tall 37 inch tires, you max out at only 44 MPH, the stock ratio 3.07 gets you to 55 MPH.

Tallest I'm willing to go is 35 most likely end up with 31-33", the ones pictured are 31x10r15 and have since been sold as I was going to swap out for 6 lug disk axles before finding the donors were bent and not worth repair.

So unless you are ok with 55 MPH, we need taller tires or, the better option is to change the final drive ratio in the Tesla box. Saleen went the other way way 11.39, so we just need to swap to a lower ratio.

55mph no, 65 sure I could accept that.

For the sake of clarification I've wasted some time with gimp to modify a thing...