[chriswf]

Hey everyone, I've been lurking for a while and figured I'd make an account.
This is an electric planning discussion, for a performance enhancement to a petrol car (and maybe mpg enhancement). So I don't think this goes in the "performance" thread.

My thought process is, I like electric mobility. I like power. I like gas mileage.
Why not make something that only has the power when I need (want) it.

Here's the recommended post information from the sticky:

• Your skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication:
  I've done (petrol) engine swaps in cars. I can weld, wire harness, etc. I'm also a software engineer and program just about anything. I've also built ebikes and emotorcycles, but nothing over 8kw.
• The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge):
  As a Hybrid, as many miles as the gas tank would carry I guess.
• What level of performance you are hoping to get:
  200-300hp equivalent (or 150-230kw I guess). Highly optimistic, I know.
• How much money you are willing to put into your project:
  Hoping the hybrid portion won't exceed 15k USD - or the Mrs might get mad.
• What parts you've already considered, if any:
  I've never built a hybrid-anything. I've also never built anything with an AC motor that uses 'regen'. I understand how regen works on my wife's Insight, but I'm not sure how I would get an electric motor between an engine and a transmission on a truck (or on anything).
  
  I've found a couple of people use axion flux motors, somehow (for their hybrid conversions). Like seen here:
  
  

  Phi-Power PHI301 axial flux motor - E-Mobility Engineering

  We investigate and explain the technology and engineering that has gone into making this compact axial flux motor

  www.emobility-engineering.com
  I think these can go between the motor/trans.
  
  For battery cells, I was thinking maybe Lifepo4s. Something somewhat safe lol. Something that can quickly charge at 50-80amps.
  Maybe Headway 38120HP? Or maybe another cell like 60280 or something?
  You don't have to weld these cells together, which is great b/c I've never done that.
  Or maybe lifepo4 pouch cells?
  
  I've also considered an AWD option instead of putting the electric motor between the engine/trans but haven't read much into it.
  Or is there a way to put the electric motor on top of the trans and have it chain-drive-assist the transmission?
  
  Not sure what to do for a controller. I saw the Rinehart 150kw controllers but they're like 9k by themselves. I figured there'd also be more involved to a hybrid than a basic electric controller but I'm not sure.
  
  Also if I wanted it to work in sync with the gas engine, I'd probably need an electronic throttle for the petrol engine right?

 

[brian_]

• The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge):
  As a Hybrid, as many miles as the gas tank would carry I guess.

The reason that range is included in the standard questions is to guide battery sizing. For a hybrid, the logical question would be about the range that you want on battery, without the engine running.

 

[brian_]

I've found a couple of people use axion flux motors, somehow (for their hybrid conversions). Like seen here:

Phi-Power PHI301 axial flux motor - E-Mobility Engineering

We investigate and explain the technology and engineering that has gone into making this compact axial flux motor

www.emobility-engineering.com

I think these can go between the motor/trans.

Commercially produced hybrids are often parallel configurations, which normally place the motor-generator between the engine and the transmission. Most of these use radial-flux motors, not axial-flux, but either could work.

 

[chriswf]

I'd want it to just assist the gas engine. Plug in hybrid would be okay. But really I'd just like it to work in parallel. Help with acceleration. Recharge on deceleration and braking. Flip over to 'charge' mode if it voltage is too low.

I think 1-5 miles of pure electric would be okay. But not necessary. I think the Infinity Q50 hybrid can get about 1-5 miles.

When you have a pure electric car, you'd need an electric brake booster, air conditioning, etc, right?

Maybe I just want a really solid hybrid, and that's it? I'm not sure if this is a popular thing to build or not.

 

[brian_]

I'd want it to just assist the gas engine. Plug in hybrid would be okay. But really I'd just like it to work in parallel. Help with acceleration. Recharge on deceleration and braking. Flip over to 'charge' mode if it voltage is too low.

The terms "parallel" and "series" hybrid refer to the route of power flow from engine to wheels - in either one the engine and battery can both be used at the same time, and in either one the vehicle can drive on battery power only.

 

[brian_]

I think 1-5 miles of pure electric would be okay. But not necessary. I think the Infinity Q50 hybrid can get about 1-5 miles.

With minimal battery-only range, a typical small hybrid battery is suitable. Battery size requirement will be determined by power (not energy) demand. For an example, the 2022 Toyota Tundra hybrid (a 35 kW parallel hybrid using a motor-generator between engine and transmission, intended mostly for performance enhancement) has a 1.87 kWh battery; the Ford F-150 hybrid is similar. The smaller Infiniti Q50 has a 67 HP (50 kW) motor and 1.4 kWh battery.

 

[brian_]

When you have a pure electric car, you'd need an electric brake booster, air conditioning, etc, right?

You need electric assist for both steering and brakes if you ever let the engine stop while moving (including in a pure battery-electric car, of course); a hybrid in which the engine only shuts off when stopped is certainly possible, although it is normally done only with "mild" hybrids.

Air conditioning only needs electric drive if running (moving or stationary) for long enough at a time to be noticed (including in a pure battery-electric car, of course). Early "full" hybrid Toyota models could only run the A/C when the engine was running, but now even some non-hybrids with automatic start-stop have have battery-electric A/C.

All of these things can be run electrically by replacing non-electric drives with motors (electric pump for hydraulic power steering, electric vacuum pump for brake booster, electric motor running compressor which is usually belt-driven), but EVs and modern hybrids use systems with built-in electric motors (steering rack or column with motor, brake master cylinder with motor such as the Bosch iBooster, air conditioning compressor with built-in motor).

 

[brian_]

I'd want it to just assist the gas engine. Plug in hybrid would be okay. But really I'd just like it to work in parallel. Help with acceleration. Recharge on deceleration and braking. Flip over to 'charge' mode if it voltage is too low.

I think 1-5 miles of pure electric would be okay. But not necessary.
...

Maybe I just want a really solid hybrid, and that's it? I'm not sure if this is a popular thing to build or not.

Discussions of hybrid conversions come up here, but my impression is that few of them get built - even fewer than with pure battery-electric conversions - as people realize how difficult it will be and how limited the benefits will be. Proposed projects are of all types: series and hybrid, plug-in or not, etc.

 

[chriswf]

What about bolt on hybrid transmissions?
I haven't read much into them, but I found the ZF transmission online. Sounds like it's a bit like the Escalade transmission with the electric motors built into the trans.

Products for Cars - ZF

Products for Cars

www.zf.com

They don't have prices listed. But maybe lack of custom fabrication would make up for the cost of the trans?

 

[brian_]

What about bolt on hybrid transmissions?
I haven't read much into them, but I found the ZF transmission online. Sounds like it's a bit like the Escalade transmission with the electric motors built into the trans.

Products for Cars - ZF

Products for Cars

www.zf.com

The GM Two-Mode longitudinal hybrid transmission (2M70 from full-sized SUVs such as the Escalade and pickups, or 4EL70 from the more recent Cadillac CT6 PHEV) or the common Toyota/Lexus longitudinal hybrid transmission (from the GS 450h, LS 600h, IS 300h, etc; tranmission models L110, etc) are power-split hybrid systems. That means they have two substantial motor-generators, and the normal power flow is usually (always in the Toyota/Lexus) partially through the electrical path and partially through a planetary gear set.

Although it installs like the power-split units, the ZF 8HP hybrid system is a common automatic transmission with added motor-generator to make a parallel hybrid system. The Ford F-150 PowerBoost (using Ford 10-speed transmission) and 2022 Toyota Tundra (using Aisin 10-speed transmission) hybrids are parallel systems, like the ZF, and there are others like this as well from other manufacturers.

Power-split and parallel hybrid approaches both work, and adapting a salvaged hybrid transmission of either type to the S-10 is certainly a valid option. The GM units are a more obvious match, but in practical terms none of the available hybrid transmissions (old GM, new GM, Lexus by Aisin, Ford, ZF....) will work without substantial effort to sort out the controls. An advantage of a GM unit might be that the right one might bolt up to the GM engine in the S-10 without an adapter, although it is unlikely. A custom mount, custom propeller shaft, and lots of electronic work would be involved in any case.

What generation of S-10 is this, and what engine do you want to use? The 2M70 will likely only match the GM small-block V8 bolt pattern (which the S-10 4.3L V6 would presumably have), and the 4EL70 should match the 2.0 Ecotec (LTG or LSY) engine, which might have a unique GM Ecotec Generation III bellhousing pattern, but might have a more common pattern in RWD applications (and the unique one only in transverse FWD applications).

They don't have prices listed. But maybe lack of custom fabrication would make up for the cost of the trans?

ZF doesn't list prices because they don't sell to the public, only in large quantities to auto manufacturers. To use one of these you would be salvaging it from a wrecked production car, and working with whatever control system the auto manufacturer (not just ZF) built for it. The same is true of any brand or type or hybrid transmission.

 

[chriswf]

What generation of S-10 is this

It's a 2nd gen, 04 crew cab. It does have the 4.3.

in practical terms none of the available hybrid transmissions (old GM, new GM, Lexus by Aisin, Ford, ZF....) will work without substantial effort to sort out the

Okay, since zf don't sell to the public and it'd take a great deal of effort just to get any other transmission running. Maybe a P3 setup would be better? Maybe not an electric differential, but maybe an electric motor or 2 that sits on the driveshaft? Or axle shafts?
I believe auto trans like their input shaft spun to properly lubricate, but maybe I'll just never use the electric motor(s) without the internal combustion engine also running?

Hybridization seems far more difficult than I could have imagined lol.

 

[remy_martian]

I can't recall if they have a two piece driveshaft like the larger trucks do. In any case, you're not going to get 300hp, but you could get a dual shaft motor, like a Warp 11 and run the driveshaft in and out of it. IIRC, EvWest used to sell one with GM yoke splines on it.

At that point, you can get a speed controller and write a ton of Arduino code to your heart's content, having it be the virtual gas pedal for the controller.

Battery management will be another can of worms, of course.

 

[brian_]

Maybe a P3 setup would be better? Maybe not an electric differential, but maybe an electric motor or 2 that sits on the driveshaft?

I can't recall if they have a two piece driveshaft like the larger trucks do. In any case, you're not going to get 300hp, but you could get a dual shaft motor, like a Warp 11 and run the driveshaft in and out of it. IIRC, EvWest used to sell one with GM yoke splines on it.

An S-10 is really short to have a two-piece propeller shaft, but it can still be shortened, perhaps enough for this sort of installation, which would be an excellent solution if it fits and if you can find a suitable motor. This is an established P3 hybrid configuration; for instance, it was used by Azure Dynamics for their Balance hybrid conversion of Class 4 trucks. It is like a divorced transfer case.

Here's a description of the Balance design, from another discussion of a possible hybrid conversion of a much heavier vehicle:

... Azure Dynamics adaptation of Ford's E-450 stripped commercial chassis to become a parallel hybrid, which they branded as "Balance Hybrid Electric". Apparently AZD mounted a 280 volt 130 hp AC (induction) motor in parallel with the stock transmission's output. From the diagram and some descriptions, it that is was a motor with a double-ended shaft, forming part of the propeller shaft (driveshaft) and so running at transmission output / final drive input speed. The final drive ratio (in at least some of them) was 4.56:1.

This illustration was taken from the manual (linked below), which also provides system weights and dimensioned drawings of the component layout, as well as many photographs of the system installed on the E-450 chassis.

In the Balance E-450, the electric motor only handled propulsion by itself at low speeds; above a set speed (20 to 35 mph depending on report), or when the accelerator is pressed enough, the engine ran as well. It's unlikely that this motor could handle a six-ton motorhome by itself. About a thousand of these were built, with over half being Purolator delivery vans.

References:

• Wikipedia: Azure Dynamics; Balance Hybrid Electric
• Azure Dynamics Hybrid Delivery-Truck Test Drive: Gas/Electric Hybrid Offers 30 Percent MPG Improvement
• Azure Dynamics' Balance(TM) Hybrid Electric shuttle bus completes rigorous "Altoona" durability testing
• Azure Dynamics and Utilimaster converting Ford E-Series into hybrid commercial vehicles
• Azure Dynamics Parallel Hybrid Electric Vehicle; 2008 Ford E-450 Body Builders Layout Book Supplement
• Azure Dynamics delivers Its 1,000th Balance hybrid electric truck

A feed-through motor like this can be a motor with a dual-ended shaft, or a hollow shaft with a custom shaft inserted through it. The BorgWarner (formerly Remy, now sold by BW's Cascadia Motion division) HVH motor cores are hollow, and so are some of the axial-flux motors.

Just as the separately mounted motor is like a divorced transfer case, an alternative P2 hybrid mounting would look like a married transfer case: use the 4WD version of the transmission (which is basically just a shorter tail housing intended to have something bolted to it), and adapt the motor case to bolt on... with a suitable shaft adapter as well.

One issue to watch is space. A conventional engine and transmission slope down toward the rear, so that the crankshaft at the front is higher than at the rear, the input to the transmission is higher than the output, and by the time you get to the end of the tail housing the output shaft is low and a large-diameter motor can be a ground clearance problem. At the same time, the space above the shaft to the floor is minimal.

Any of these in-line solutions run the motor at propeller shaft speed. A smaller motor can be used if it runs faster, which could be accomplished with a planetary gear set (if the motor shaft is hollow), or by placing the motor beside the propeller shaft and connecting the motor and propeller shafts with a set of gears, a chain, or a toothed belt. It might be possible to convert a 4WD transfer case to do this, but the trick is to arrange gearing so that the motor turns faster than the propeller shaft, and all of the components are happy with the shaft speeds which would occur on the highway.

 

[brian_]

Okay, since zf don't sell to the public and it'd take a great deal of effort just to get any other transmission running. Maybe a P3 setup would be better?
...
I believe auto trans like their input shaft spun to properly lubricate, but maybe I'll just never use the electric motor(s) without the internal combustion engine also running?

Yes, most automatics need the input shaft to turn to lubricate properly; they can coast with the engine not running for a short distance. This is an issue for anyone towing a vehicle with drive wheels on the ground, and the usual solutions are to drop the propeller shaft (obviously not an option), to shift a 4WD transfer case into neutral, or to provide an external electric oil pump. Some recent transmissions intended for use in hybrids that shut down the engine or even just with automatic start-stop systems include an electric pump to handle the lack of drive to an input-driven internal mechanical pump; the L110 in a Lexus GS 450h hybrid includes an electric pump for this purpose.

 

[brian_]

Maybe not an electric differential, but maybe an electric motor or 2 that sits on the driveshaft? Or axle shafts?

Motors on the individual axle shafts would be functionally great, but tough to build... especially with a beam axle (the diff and both motors would ride on the axle).

 

[brian_]

Hybridization seems far more difficult than I could have imagined lol.

Yes.

It has all of the complexity of managing an engine and transmission, plus all of the complexity of managing an electric motor, plus the additional complication of coordinating them with each other. It's obviously possible, but far from trivial.

 

[brian_]

It's a 2nd gen, 04 crew cab. It does have the 4.3.

The 4.3 is presumably the LU3 (that's the GM RPO code), a 6-cylinder variant of the oldest generation of Chevrolet small-block V8 family.

LU3 in S-10: 190 hp (142 kW) at 4,400 rpm, 250 lb⋅ft (339 N⋅m) at 2,800 rpm​

The current 4.3 L engine, an "EcoTec3", is similarly derived from the current (5th) generation of the GM small-block V8 family; it is used in the Silverado/Sierra pickups (LV3) and Express/Savanna vans (LV1). The LV1 is available as a crate engine.

LV3 and LV1: 285 hp (213 kW) @ 5300 rpm, 305 lb⋅ft (414 N⋅m) @ 3900 rpm​

The new engine is generally similar to the old one (90-degree V6, cam in vee, pushrod-operated valves), and should have essentially the same dimensions and presumably the same bell housing pattern to mount to the transmission, but none of the internal details are the same.

This is an EV conversion forum, and of course we support and encourage EV (and hybrid) conversions... but if the goals are just better performance and lower fuel consumption, it would almost certainly be easier and more effective to swap the old engine out for the most direct and more advanced equivalent. The new one has an aluminum block and heads, and will be lighter, as well.

Mild hybrid conversion (belt-drive alternator-motor and medium-voltage battery) on the new engine could be an interesting electric propulsion project and improve efficiency and performance a bit more.