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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

When looking for my favourite car to convert for my daily commute, my eye fell on a 2008 Volvo S80 2.5T. It offers a lot of security and also luxury/comfort. I hope it becomes somehow my personal Tesla S :)

Advantages: A lot of space under the trunk (exhaust, reserve wheel, tank) and the space under the hood appears also quite abundant
Disadvantages: It's quite heavy - 1630kg (3600lbs) incl. ICE

  • Skill level with auto mechanics and fabrication:
    I'm not a mechanic but I think I know enough about car mechanics to dare a conversion. Probably comparable with Brian Noto at the beginning of evtv. Well versed with software and electronics. Might need some help with welding if required. E.g. I'd not dare to drain the AC coolant myself or take apart a gear box - but clutch should be fine and uninstall the engine, resp. install the new motor. I'd not be able to create an adapter plate by myself.
  • The range you are hoping to get (how many miles/charge)
    At least 100km / 62 miles. More is always appreciated.
  • What level of performance you are hoping to get
    Driving on highways with 140kmh / 90 mph and not sag below 120kmh on an incline. Acceleration should be below 12sec for 0-100kmh/60mph, preferably around 8-9sec. So the performance should be comparable with the 1.6l diesel engine they put in the S80 (84kw/115hp, 270Nm). No drag racing but sufficent to not obstruct other traffic in any way (especially uphill) or feel embarassed in driving a underpowered shiny car.
  • How much money you are willing to put into your project
    10'000 to 15'000$ (not including the car itself)
  • What parts you've already considered, if any.
    Batteries: Thundersky, CALB batteries - I'm not considering lead acid
    Motor: MES-DEA, HPEVS AC-75, ...
    DC-DC converter: PC power supply or 12V battery, ...
My top questions:
* Can I my requirements be fulfilled with this car and todays technology? If so, what would be your recommendation?
* Is the car too heavy or otherwise not suited for a conversion?
* In Switzerland we have very very strict car admission checks. weight and its distribution as well as securing the batteries are certainly the main focus. Will there be any chance that I don't exceed the cars current curb weight and that I can approximate its current weight distribution?
* At what prize could the ICE be sold? (to gain additional funding)

Thanks a lot in advance for any help!
Michael
 

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Welcome!

And here I thought Noto was an expert mechanic...

For longer highway range it's not just the weight, but more the aero that's a big factor? How's your car fare there?

You'd likely need around $8500 and 500 lbs of lithium. Any idea what the current engine weighs? No idea what you'd fetch for it, but try to line up the buyer before you pull it!
 

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* Can I my requirements be fulfilled with this car and todays technology? If so, what would be your recommendation?

Summary of Requirements:
>61 miles range
90mph top speed
<8sec 0-60mph
$15,000 budget for parts

Proposed Equipment:
Motor: Kostov K9 = $1,700 + 300$ adapter = $2,000
K9 @ 500A = 80kw (~80whp) and 180nm @ 4250rpm w/200V
Controller: Soliton Jr. = $2,000
Batteries: Calb CA60AH cells (75$), 100 cells = 330Vnom., $7,500
Total Energy = 330V * 60 = 20kwh @ 300wh/mile Max range = ~67miles* it is recommended to never exceed 80% of back capacity to help ensure pack longevity.
total = $11,500
Note: This doesn't include charger, battery boxes, cabling, battery ties, connectors, contractors, dc-dc converters, etc. others = $3,500, Grand Total = $15,000
Batteries = 4.5lbs each cell * 100cells = 450lbs total
Motor = 45kg = 100lbs
Controller = 15lbs
Total added weight = 565lbs

* Is the car too heavy or otherwise not suited for a conversion?

Generally speaking, the lighter donor car the better.

* In Switzerland we have very very strict car admission checks. weight and its distribution as well as securing the batteries are certainly the main focus. Will there be any chance that I don't exceed the cars current curb weight and that I can approximate its current weight distribution?

Keep track of the weight you remove and where you remove it from:
Engine (front), radiator and other parts (front), exhaust (front+back), gas tank (back), etc.
And what you add and where you add it too:
motor (front), controller (front), batteries (front+back), etc.
Total added weight = 565lbs
Weigh the removed parts as you remove them..a general home scale should work for close estimates.

* At what prize could the ICE be sold? (to gain additional funding)

I would contact your local Volvo mechanics and ask them what they would like, you might even try to convince them to part it out at their shop and then have them tow the "glider" to your workspace.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks all for the welcome and fast response!

Welcome!

And here I thought Noto was an expert mechanic...

For longer highway range it's not just the weight, but more the aero that's a big factor? How's your car fare there?

You'd likely need around $8500 and 500 lbs of lithium. Any idea what the current engine weighs? No idea what you'd fetch for it, but try to line up the buyer before you pull it!
I think so too that he's an expert mechanic. But in the early videos I believe he stated that when he started, he had no special car mechanics know-how. I hope I'm not saying something wrong here.

These are the aerodynamic values I could find on the net about the S80 but I have no reference to judge these values:
Drag coefficient 0.290 Frontal area 2.34 m² CdA 0.68
* Can I my requirements be fulfilled with this car and todays technology? If so, what would be your recommendation?

Summary of Requirements:
>61 miles range
90mph top speed
<8sec 0-60mph
$15,000 budget for parts

Proposed Equipment:
...
Thanks for the proposal! I'll check the components. I think, this means, yes my requirements can be met. This would be great and I could go ahead and buy the car.

I'll check with the local volvo dealer if they or someone else might be interested in the engine. That's certainly a good hint.

What about the MES-DEA products? On evtv they don't get a good qualification but some still use them - and I think it's a powerful motor.

Regards,
Michael
 

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Hello neuweiler

Check out EVE for great drive options. I'd recommend either a Kostov/Soliton combo as this can be got with certification for EU use (search the forum), or an MES-DEA set-up from EVE though this would be more costly. Their 90kW drive system is quite successful and they can offer alot of advice.

I look forward to your conversion and will probably comment alot as I'm looking to convert my 2002 S60.

Regarding weight, that honking 5 cylinder ICE is not light, and is rather tall, so you can fit alot up front with an AC motor, batteries, controller, charger, electrics (these three are all integrated into one unit from EVE, very smart!) and more batteries in the rear. I'd hesitate you could potentially keep the spare wheel well even, with no change to the boot/storage, and batteries in the tank space and potentially in the transmision tunnel where exhaust used to reside (and where awd prop shaft lives, some reasonable space in there) to support this.

Weight and distribution should not be a problem, though the car is heavy, it is aerodynamic, so it won't accelerate as you hope but will meet your needs ~12s and cruise well. KEEP THE AUTO TRANSMISSION, this will make a big difference to your acceleration. If possible get a different transmission controller, or potentially have it reprogrammed by a tuning house, and start in second with only one change to 3rd to get to 60MPH and it will be relatively quick. No need for the torque converter unless you drive the accesories from the motor. I'd steer away from this and remove the torque converter for both weight and efficiency loss/heat generation, but not essential. Electric steerign and AC pumps are widely available these days, and an electric hydraulic pump for the transmission should be easy to adapt. This is the route I'll eventually take on my S60. I wish to build my own water cooled AC motor from one or two industrial motors though. see DIY AC Motor thread for discussions, still in its infancy...

As I mensioned in your other post, speak to EV Propulsion about talking CAN-BUS to the car to retain ABS, Traction Control, Cruise COntrol etc! They did this successfully. And their motor adapter might be perfect for the MES-DEA motor too, provided it is not over 9" dia like a warp9. Maybe slightly bigger could be acceptable, the Warp is 9.25" with a little clearance.

Your budget sounds reasonable, but remember certification costs etc as well, and not sure I saw mention of BMS in there.

PS: I can't type...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
This is an extraordinary experience already - even before I really started. When I was just gathering information, I was all fevered for it. Now that I'm about to buy a car and talk to mechanics, some doubts started to manifest (can I do it? is all the computerized stuff too complex?). But then reading here again your input swings me all back and I'm going to call the sales agent that I'm going to buy it :)

I'll check out EVE and ev-propulsion (wasn't abe to find the V70 on their site but I'm going to ask them).

That's great! A quick glance under the hood yesterday also made me think: lot's of space, even a large motor should fit. Not having to remove part of the trunk and being able to keep the weight distribution would be great.

The car I have in mind does have a manual transmission. Should I rather choose one with an auto tranny? I'm a bit hesitant because it adds more complexity. Why does it make a big difference in acceleration?

Would a warp 11 be too big?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi

You can find some informatione regarding registration in Switzerland here http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8841.

I hope the information is not too outdated, as these things tend to cahnge quickly.

Best, markus
Great! Thanks a lot! What's written at the bottom confirms information I gathered in my recent inquiry. They offer a service that costs about 250.-CHF/h where they analyze your current and future car configuration and tell you if it will pass. Might cost an additional 500-750 bucks but it's sure worth it.
 

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neuweiler
Auto will be quicker because it will not require a clutch and is more user friendly too. But the manual will work fine also. If the price for the car is right get the manual and you can buy an auto transmission later to get working on the bench before installing it.

With using a petrol transmission i would recommend using a high voltage and interpoled motor, Kostov or Warp HV as you will need more revs for the gearing. Also be aware the v70 conversion could only fit a 9" motor. See here: http://www.ev-propulsion.com/conversion-KITS.html

They did have a whole page on the Volvo but I can't find it on my phone.
 

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Ah yes those are the pics.

PM me your email addres and I'll send across some emails shared with the guys. they are REALLY helpful chaps.

For their conversion they set up a CAN-BUS computer to trick the standard ECU to thinking the engine was runnign and thuis control the transmission that way, along with retaining function of the ABS and cruise control etc. You'd not need to control the transmission obviously (unless you use an AC motor and can leave out the clutch, then the controller would match the motor speed to the gear to be selected to make changes quick) but for keeping the other functions this coudl be valuable info.

BUT if you are working with a Volvo mechanic who can help you program a seperate ECU for your car to replace the standard ICE ECU this is a better route I think! Then you can tailor all the functions to the new operation of your car. You'll need to make a few decisions first, what motor/controller you plan on using (see the thread about EVE, worrying a bit, but keep on top of discussions, all hope may not be lost...) and how you wish to set it up in the car, as well as what accessories you need, PAS obviously, AirCon maybe, etc as this will determine how these are accomodated. I am not sure but recall the newer S80s have electric steering, not sure if your car would be new enough for it though. THat would be a huge help if yours is electric!

Get some pictures up, and some basic ideas of what luxuries you want. for your climate control I'd say keep the AirCon AND use a water heater for the heat circuit, so that the whole system is undisturbed in the car! These things need to be decided before motor/controller choices are decided on.

PS, I'm looking round for suitable AC motors that can be driven by the ScottDrive controller from NZ, looking like I'll have to assemble my own motors from INdustrial AC motors for this though, but this could be a very good route for you also! We'll keep in touch!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I've sent you the PM. Thanks !
On https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeGcTN3y_YU you see the V70 in a first test drive. Looks impressive!

Yes, I think something like the CAN Bus computer might be necessary. Do you think powering up the vehicle without the plugs from the engine plugged in the ECM would cause any damage? If not, one might experiment a bit and do more of a trial and error approach regarding required input signals. Finding a mechanic who can reprogram an ECM might be hard. Probably a tuning company might help.

BTW: I'm already wondering if the text/gfx displayed in the dashboard is programmed in the display itself or is transferred as bitmaps via the bus. If the latter is the case, then one might be able to replace text like "current consumption: 8l/h" with "current cunsumption: 40Amps".

Things I've found out until now:
* My car might have a supplementary heating already installed (electric, ceramic). This might be very useful if it's powerful enough and I could trick the env controls to run it continuously. Otherwise I'll go for the water heater.
* The gas pedal doesn't have a direct cable to the engine but two potentiometers. It sends a digital and analog signal to the ECM (and another box) which then moves the throttle motor. Might be used for input to the controller :) But the throttle also has a potentiometer to report the position back to the ECM.
* The right dirve shaft is stabilized by a ring that is attached to the engine. Removing the engine means finding a solution to mount this ring (like on evtv's Mini).
* I think the power steering is still hydraulic.
* Some S80 models have an electric parking brake - mine unfortunately not. This would have been ideal with a manual gearbox to automatically lock the car. --> looking for a retro-fit.

I'd like to retain all the security and creature comforts in the S80. The security related stuff is even mandatory here in Switzerland: once it has a feature, it must be operational. So..

musts are:
ABS, traction/stability control (DSTC), BLIS, parking aides, defroster, defogger, mirror heating, electric seat control, adaptive curve lights (xenon), rear+front fog lights, all airbags+curtains, power steering, power brakes, speedometer, air conditioning (most likely), xenon light washer system and of course all the other mandatory stuff like wipers, ext. lights, etc.

Really nice-to-haves are:
automatic climate control, Seat heating, seat ventilation, moonroof, cruise control, keyless entry, tachometer, navigation system and last but not least: the audio system :)

Reading all this again makes me wonder how much power a DC/DC converter would have to provide in a worst case, e.g. : exterior lights on, wipers on, seat heating on, blower full, rear window defogger on, and then an emergency brake with ABS and brake assistance active. Would a 600W or a 1000W converter suffice? Or would I still need a 12V car battery as emergency buffer? How many amps would the 12V system be drawing in such a situation?

Whoa ! Replacing the manual tranny with an auto? Maybe in an overhaul :) But that's surely difficult.

Here some pics:
 

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so.... I am jumping into this thread to see what the current status is. I have a potential conversion client who LOVES volvos, and I'm having trouble finding any completed examples of newer volvos successfully converted. Additional issue locally is there are almost NO used ones available with manual transmission, only automatics.... which I hesitate to attempt because of the difficulty controlling the shift points without all the ICE sensor input.

so... I am looking into whether there are particular models originally offered with manual trannies I could perhaps swap in used rebuilt trannies, or retain the auto tranny if someone can explain to me how it isn't as big a deal as I fear to get it to shift OR even make it so it only has 2nd gear available forward as a compromise for decent torque from stop and limited top speed suitable for around town.

comments?

any other surprises that make the modern volvos good/bad/difficult conversions? I see above there is a right cv shaft bearing mount normally going to motor.... probably requires a custom bracket, prehaps tying back into a rear center mount rather than the engine block?. trouble? I see ReBirth has done an adaptor for it, but it looks very complex, and VERY expensive ($4k+) being billet aluminum machined with this bracket and accessory mounts all built in.... alternate solutions at reasonable price?
 

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Both. See this link. http://rebirthauto.com/shop/ev-conversion-kits/rebirth-auto-volvo-v70-performancemileage-kit/
This is a kit and conversion rebirth has good experience with. I've spoken with them,and they kept the ecu of the car and built a computer to feed the necessary signals for everything to work. So manual or automatic would work, and the kit mounts the original drive shaft engine mount.

Dtbaker there are manual transmission for all Volvo models. And ideally Volvo only used 3 or 4 transmissions across it's model ranges.

Oh you mention the rebirth kit. You could easily do it alot simpler. I'd incorporate the end motor mount and drive shaft mount in one and not have it connected to the transmission adapter, then have a simpler torque mount connection on the adapter as the rebirth one is overkill, and this should also allow use of 11" motors since the rebirth adapter limits you to a 9". The only drawback with this is the motor handles any torque between it and the transmission but this is normal for almost all conversions.

I have an S60 and have done a fair bit of research for the drive system, but not found much work on the canbus stuff. Not too many people seem to have gone this route. I know the Volvo guys have all the code and programming know how to set up a canbus interface so they'd be my first point for interfacing with the car's control systems. Once you can interface with the computers the rest of the conversion is standard affair.
 

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Both. See this link. http://rebirthauto.com/shop/ev-conversion-kits/rebirth-auto-volvo-v70-performancemileage-kit/
This is a kit and conversion rebirth has good experience with.
as far as I can tell they have only done one, the adaptor is very expensive and has all brackets and other things built into one unit. I would like something simpler, in the sub-$1000 range....

I've spoken with them,and they kept the ecu of the car and built a computer to feed the necessary signals for everything to work.
yeah, that sounds very complex, and expensive. I was hoping for semi-manual 'tiptronic' shifting directly firing the tranny solenoids. I did not get any detailed info from rebirth on HOW they did it, I think they outsourced to a volvo mechanic.

Dtbaker there are manual transmission for all Volvo models.
this is good news, I just haven't seen ANY manual transmission used ones locally. I guess I need to buy some beer and corner local volvo tech to see if I can get used/rebuild manual trannies and consider a transplant if the tiptronic approach on an automatic is too complex.

Oh you mention the rebirth kit. You could easily do it alot simpler.
I think so too...

I have an S60 and have done a fair bit of research for the drive system, but not found much work on the canbus stuff.
too much computer control of shifting makes me nervous.... I am going to do a little more digging to see if I could 'manually' trigger shift solenoids, or do a manual transplant. I want to bypass the ECU completely. fine with me if I never use D, and 'manually' shift up and down.
 

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Easy enough to hack the power supply wiring for the transmission solenoids but the problem is the ecu is the brain for other canbus systems so you need to replace it with a computer that keeps all those systems working. The alarm, climate control, traction control, abs etc etc all talk to the ecu.
 

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Easy enough to hack the power supply wiring for the transmission solenoids but the problem is the ecu is the brain for other canbus systems so you need to replace it with a computer that keeps all those systems working. The alarm, climate control, traction control, abs etc etc all talk to the ecu.
what would be wrong with leaving the ECU intact, bypassing ONLY the tranmission shifting signals to go directly to the solenoids? none of the other systems need to talk to transmission, right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Hi,

You can follow the progress of my S80 conversion on s80ev.blogspot.com . Yes, mine has a manual transmission and as I'm new to this business, personally I wouldn't dare to do automatic ones. But I did a heck of other stuff with the ECU. To control the Brusa motor I wrote a module for the open-source GEVCU (see http://www.gevcu.org and http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=gevcu&cat=23 ).

Cool stuff:

  • I also wrote a module to query the stock Volvo ECU for the desired throttle position via CAN bus (it has a drive-by-wire system). So I can use the stock ECU now, attach the original throttle unit (motor + position pots) and with ignition on, it already works. I get a reliable (validated) throttle signal from 0% to 100%. This means, even Volvo's own cruise control will work. (I hope the ECU won't act up once the car is moving).
  • The S80 already had a vaccum pump for the brakes
  • My edition also has a supplementary PHTC electric heating element in the climate system. (winter edition).
  • To make all warnings go away, you just needed a few resistors and/or use original sensors. With very easy and little effort with Vida (service manual). I have no warnings on the dashboard anymore (only some unimportant DTC's).
  • There's lots of space in the engine room, in the tunnel under the car (where the exhaust pipe was) and in the trunk. I have no fear I won't be able to stow away 120 CALB CA100 cells without giving up any trunk space.
Some problems I still have to fix:

  • The ECU communicates via LIN bus with the generator. As long as the ECU doesn't get a "ready for load" message from the generator, it won't tell the CCM (climate control module) that it's ok to switch on the supplementary heating, seat heating or rear window de-mist. So either I spoof the LIN messages of the generator or the CAN messages of the ECU to make the CCM happy. Tricky but solvable.
  • I have no dimensions of the transmission bell housing (yet). It's a Ford Motor Company transmission (6G9R 7002 KF). Without it I have to "experiment" to create an adapter plate. I won't be able to make a precision fit.
  • The Brusa motor I use has an involuted spline shaft. I think its bearings were not made to carry a 15-20kg clutch (SAC). So I would like to go without a clutch/flywheel. But how to connect the small shaft of the transmission with a new thicker spline shaft for the motor? People also tell me that due to misalignment issues, a direct connection would destroy the shaft/bearings of the motor in the long run. Actually this is my biggest problem - mainly due to the choice of the motor as it has no shaft like a Netgain or HPEVS motor. But this is not Volvo specific.
  • You're right, the right axle was supported with a bracket mounted directly to the motor. But as you have to support the electric motor anyway, I plan to use the stock mounts. On the frame I have to build, I'll attach the original bracket. It has to move with the motor/tranny as it has to be in perfect alignment with the tranny. The axle should come out in a straight line. But also this is a front-drive specific problem and not a Volvo specific problem.
Once you start working under the car, you'll realize what it's built on: FoMoCo parts. Interestingly every part that had rust on it was stamped with these 6 letters.
 
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