[JOT 12directblue.com]

Hi everyone,

Even if we have been told no one came up with a practical DIY hybrid conversion, we're developing a new DIY hybrid kit and would like to get some feedback from you all.

We want to develop a simple, lightweight kit consisting of one motor, 2 to 5 lbs and 6 to 15kW peak, for each rear wheel. Transmission will be via a synchro belt or chain drive.

In its simplest form, we will not even require an electric vacuum pump or steering, the car gas engine will be kept idling as a giant servo We will use a driving wheel integrated accelerator, similar to those for the disabled. Therefore price will be the priority for this simplest kit, and the system will work just as a gas saver.

Note that a more complete form of this kit (with electric vaccum pump and electric steering) will also be used to drive purely on electric (city or road capable depending on the selected power of motors) while keeping the gas engine, or to convert a car to pure electric. In this last case, the gearbox, transmission, differential, etc, are no longer necessary. This will liberate further space and weight for the batteries.

How would you like such a system? What are the problems you see? How much would you be willing to pay for the wheel and motor pinions and the motor support?

Thanks

JOT


SUMMARY OF THE THREAD:

A hybrid/EV car DIY system using high power, low weight model airplane electric motors (about 2kg or 5 lbs each), one for each rear wheel. Cost analysis and possible reductions.

Motors driving wheels by using a synchro belt or chain drive for each rear wheel, 8 to 1 approx transmission ratio. Integrated freewheel to avoid excessive rpm to the motors. Motor support attached to suspension arm (motors therefore unsuspended weight) or back side of brake discs-drums. A big pinion on the inside of the tim, mounted on a metal saucer with holes for the wheel bolts. Saucer to be installed between the rim and the hub, displacing the wheel only 2-3mm outwards.

30kW SYSTEM

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs.
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

14kW SYSTEM

You could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, BUT there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...E_Warehouse%29

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around

$6,500

In order to get further price reductions, batteries are the next target.

A 14kW system is about $6,500 with lithium batteries for $2,500 and a $500 BMS.

If four 12v lead deep cycle batteries are used, the price for the batteries would be about $600, and no need for BMS. So again the price for the 14kW system can drop by $2,400. That is, the new price would be:

$4,100

These batteries can be recycled from telecom companies, getting them very cheap. Say $100. That would leave the price for the 14kW system at

$3,600

Surely range would be affected, down to about 12 miles, and battery weight would double. But still a working system.

Of course, if someone is willing to design and machine the pinions and motor supports by himself, the cost can be further reduced to a few hundred dollars.

Also to the calculations:

Peugeot is moving a 307 cabrio EV with a 17kW fuel cell and a small battery for 300 miles. After the battery is over, it is clear that the only propulsion can come from the 17kW. And it seems it works:

http://www.greencar.com/articles/psa...-unfolding.php

Further on that, a Peugeot 106 electrique is 2,310 lbs and 56mph top speed:

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/4sale/...%20VEHICLE.htm

And it is 11kW continuous, 20kW peak:

http://www.ciao.de/Peugeot_106_electric__Test_2883651

11 kw Motorleistung Nennleistung (11kW nominal power)
Maximalleistung 20 kW von 1.600 bis 5.500 U/min (maximum power 20kW from 1,600 to 5,500 rpm)

If you are looking for a cheap commuter solution, I suggest the following:

Buy a compact light car for $1,000 with no power steering and possibly no vacuum pump. Rear wheels should have good clearance for the system. Cars without vacuum pump are not easy to find, I think the old Fiat Panda is like that. In the worst case, a small car with no power steering, there are many of those.

Install the cheap 14kW system with 4 telecom batteries. The weight the system with batteries will add is about 150 kg or 330lbs, very acceptable even for a small car. Your costs will be

$1,000 for the car, $3,600 for the system. You get a road capable hybrid for

Total: $4,600 (road capable hybrid with a pure electric range of 12 miles). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills while keeping long range. (Sell your present car and you get a negative cost for the change).

If you are still not satisfied with electric performance and range, then you can take all the old irons out of the car: engine, gearbox, differential, transmission, exhaust, gas tank, etc. Then you can install the system for $3,600. If you'd like to get more range, then you can install 8 telecom batteries instead of just 4, remember the engine and gearbox are out now. Then an electric vacuum pump for the brakes for about $200. So the only added costs would be the vacuum pump ($200) and the 4 added used telecom batteries for $100.

That is: $1,000 (car) + $3,600 (14kW system with 4 recycled telecom batteries) + $200 (vacuum pump) + $100 (other 4 recycled telecom batteries).

Total: $4,900 for a road capable pure electric with about 24 miles range (12 miles for each 4 telecom battery pack). Say goodbye to 80% of your gas bills. Keep your present car to recreate the long luxury journeys of car pioneers and as a vintage legacy for future generations...Sentimentalism is not for free and this change will have a positive yet moderate cost.

You can still sell the old engine and gearbox for some hundred dollars.

28KW SYSTEM

Note that two 15kW motors with their controllers are $3,900. And that two 7kW motors with their controllers are $456.

Instead of two 15kW motors (30kW), it makes much more sense mounting FOUR 7kW motors and controllers (28kW) for a total of $912, instead of $3,900.

Four motors will be required in a medium car, so there should be space for them in the rear wheels. In case of a compact small car, it could still be possible mounting one motor for each wheel. The front wheels will be more difficult because of the steering, but possible if the motor supports are attached to the back part of the front discs.

Frankly, I don't think anyone can find a more competitive alternative.


LINKS FOR THE MOTORS

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...28eq:_70-40%29
6000W - $89.99 - 1230g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDH...idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 1570g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g

 

[dimitri]

Do you have a more detailed description or even better a picture of how these small motors will attach to the wheel? Specifically, how you going to get required gear ratio to step down motor RPMs to wheel RPMs, how the belt/chain going to be protected from dirt/debris, how its going to mount to existing shafts/half-shafts/differential, etc?

Having done 2 conversions I can't even imagine how this system would look like. Would it be limited to FWD cars, RWD cars, or can it do both? I see more challenges in FWD, since steering must be integrated with your additions.

Do you have any links/specs of those small and powerful motors? Somehow I doubt that 5lb motor can do 15kW. You said its peak, but what kind of peak? 1 sec? 10 sec? What is continuous power of these motors? Is torque/RPM graph available?

If this was possible, why doesn't NetGain make 60kW Warp9 at 20lb? Where does additional 100lb come from?

I'm sorry, but none of this sounds doable for DIY market. It would be awesome if you can prove me wrong, but this forum has seen many ideas that look good on paper, but never materialize. And please don't give us another conspiracy theory, where "investors threatened you to stop releasing info until someone pays", or "GM is going to kill you for cornering car market", or "NASA bought all IP rights, so I have to keep silent now". We've seen plenty of those here before

This forum is all about practical stuff. Speaking of practical, why not actually make a rolling prototype and show some videos of it pushing the car down the road?

 

[rillip3]

In addition to the concerns Dimitri raised, I have a few more:

You allude to the idea of a series hybrid, i.e. it runs on electric when it's available, but keeps the gas engine for when it's needed. How do you intend to manage that interchange?

If you're keeping the stock engine, where are the batteries going? And how are you handling that extra weight? Typically, the loss of the heavy ICE components are what enables the batteries to be carried. If your motors are only 5 lbs this is less of a problem, but for the kinds of motors available right now that will move a car at decent speed, you're talking another 200lbs + batteries right there. Upgrading the entire suspension to hold another several hundred/thousand pounds is probably beyond a DIY job for most people.

Additionally, if you're carrying all this added weight, without removing any weight, you're going to need to upgrade the breaks on most vehicles as well.

I'm sure there are people who would be interested in such a kit (questions about making a hybrid are asked all the time) but the reality is that much of this sort of modification is beyond the typical DIYer.

 

[DavidDymaxion]

There was some company that would put a super alternator on a car, and use it for more power. You could pull like another 10 hp from the battery for quick acceleration, and get very mild regen. It was aimed at hotrodders. One big advantage to a system like this is it leverages the current drivetrain, and multiplies the electric motor torque with the tranny.

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

To Dimitri:

Sorry, no pics for now, we intend to produce a prototype kit starting in september.

The motor will be attached to the suspension arm or some other location in the hub/brakes, depending on models (the motor being therefore unsuspended weight). This is possible thanks to its very low weight. We hope this small added weight will not require a modified suspension. Or a lighter wheel could be mounted to partly offset the difference.

The gear ratio will be stepped down thanks to the difference in size for the pinion on the wheel and the pinion on the motor. With a 13'' rim (the smallest wheel we will produce kits for) we can get approx. 8 to 1 ratio with the belt drive, even more with a chain drive. Bigger rims allow for higher transmission ratios. We will integrate a freewheel in the motor pinion, so that when the car is driving faster than the motor could turn there are no problems arising (avoiding too high rpm for the motor).

Protecting from debris is quite easy to do, since all the parts are fixed to the wheel. Motorbike style.

How to mount to existing parts: we will produce a wheel pinion with the section of a saucer. The center of the saucer will get holes matching the wheel bolts, so that the saucer will be assembled between the rim and the brakes. It will move the wheel dragging the wheel bolts. This will only displace the wheel a few mm outwards, we expect 2 or 3mm will be enough.

It should be easier to mount on the rear wheels. The front wheels are more difficult as you say because of the steering. It could be done however if the motors are attached to the back part of the disc or drum brakes.

Links for the motors:

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...80-85-B_170Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_(eq:_70-40)
6000W - 1350g - $89.99

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/3429-small-brushless-rc-motors-67-kw-peak
7kW - $150 - 1570g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5139
7.000W - $99.99 - 2350g

http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITEDHOBBIES/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=5142
6.500W - $102.70 - 2350g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-...onId=&a=article&ProdNr=37200007&t=3&c=35&p=35
9000W (15 sec) - 799 € - 2100g

http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-...onId=&a=article&ProdNr=37300006&t=3&c=36&p=36
15000W (15 sec) - 899 € - 2590g

NetGain probably should start worrying and producing some equivalent motors.

The main problem we see with these motors is refrigeration. These motors are used for model airplanes and probably model choppers too, where refrigeration is not good. We have seen there are model motors mounting an air cooling fan on the axle. But probably the best option would be liquid cooling. Any suggestions how to do that? Perhaps a cooling fan with its own small motor would do.

No conspiracies. But if I stop posting, go ahead with the project!! That's why I'm giving you all the details here

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

In addition to the concerns Dimitri raised, I have a few more:

You allude to the idea of a series hybrid, i.e. it runs on electric when it's available, but keeps the gas engine for when it's needed. How do you intend to manage that interchange?

If you're keeping the stock engine, where are the batteries going? And how are you handling that extra weight? Typically, the loss of the heavy ICE components are what enables the batteries to be carried. If your motors are only 5 lbs this is less of a problem, but for the kinds of motors available right now that will move a car at decent speed, you're talking another 200lbs + batteries right there. Upgrading the entire suspension to hold another several hundred/thousand pounds is probably beyond a DIY job for most people.

Additionally, if you're carrying all this added weight, without removing any weight, you're going to need to upgrade the breaks on most vehicles as well.

I'm sure there are people who would be interested in such a kit (questions about making a hybrid are asked all the time) but the reality is that much of this sort of modification is beyond the typical DIYer.

Rillip3,

The interchange between systems will not be sophisticated. A switch on the dashboard to activate the motors and a flywheel on the motor axle to avoid excesive rpm. Independent accelerators, the electric accelerator being one of those used in the driving wheel of cars for the disabled. We think this way the system can operate safely in a foolproof way.

In the hybrid conversion, a small battery pack will go in the trunk for everyday city driving, with a limited range. As you say added weight can be a problem, so that is why we intend to keep the system as simple and light as possible. But we can also say that this approach is also very good for a pure EV conversion, allowing us to get rid of the gearbox, transmission and differential, etc. This allows for more batteries or less weight. We think the simplest version of the system will be adding approximately the weight of a passenger, so there sould be no real need to modify any mechanic systems of the car.

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Rillip3,

The interchange between systems will not be sophisticated. A switch on the dashboard to activate the motors and a flywheel on the motor axle to avoid excesive rpm. Independent accelerators, the electric accelerator being one of those used in the driving wheel of cars for the disabled. We think this way the system can operate safely in a foolproof way.

In the hybrid conversion, a small battery pack will go in the trunk for everyday city driving, with a limited range. As you say added weight can be a problem, so that is why we intend to keep the system as simple and light as possible. But we can also say that this approach is also very good for a pure EV conversion, allowing us to get rid of the gearbox, transmission and differential, etc. This allows for more batteries or less weight. We think the simplest version of the system will be adding approximately the weight of a passenger, so there sould be no real need to modify any mechanic systems of the car.

Sorry. I meant "freewheel" where I wrote "flywheel".

 

[dimitri]

NetGain probably should start worrying and producing some equivalent motors.

I think its wrong to assume you can use oversized toy motors to power the car, while dismissing reasons why well established full size motor manufacturer is producing 100-200 lb motors. I'm not a motor expert, but I believe NetGain engineers must have reasons for their power/weight ratio, and cooling might be one of the big ones.

Like you said, I suspect cooling these little motors might be significant challenge, adding cost/complexity to the system.

Also, these require BLDC motor controllers. Are you also planning to use RC market controllers, one for each wheel motor? Are controllers with suitable continuous power levels to drive a car available?

Hopefully motor experts will comment on feasibility of these motors in a full size vehicle.

I don't think 2 7kW peak motors will move a car in EV mode. 14kW is not even close to acceleration power required for 2000-3000lb car. My car takes 50-60kW to accelerate, and 15-20 kW to cruise, depending on speed and rate of acceleration. Obviously you can't expect to run motors at their peak power during cruising, you'll burn them out.

So, that means more motors, which adds cost/complexity. At some point when all is counted you will get to diminishing return with your system.

Have you seen NetGain's EMIS system? http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS.html

They put Warp motor in the middle of a RWD driveshaft. IMHO, that is much better approach to DIY hybrid. Very simple mechanical design, minimal intrusion into car's components.

I don't think you give NetGain enough credit.

 

[esoneson]

This description rang a bell. I knew I had seen an attempt like this before.

Then I found it.

http://depletedcranium.com/hybrid-conversion-kit-for-existing-automobiles/


Eric

 

[rillip3]

These motors are talking about pulling < 20 kg. Maybe it would work for a bike motor, but I will bet my lunch money that this will not have the torque to budge even a golf cart. The max amperage is only like 145 A as well. You'd practically have to push-start the golf cart. I see no way a motor of this caliber could even begin to get the job done.

I wish the best of luck, but I am extremely skeptical that these can offer any sort of performance at all.

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

I think its wrong to assume you can use oversized toy motors to power the car, while dismissing reasons why well established full size motor manufacturer is producing 100-200 lb motors. I'm not a motor expert, but I believe NetGain engineers must have reasons for their power/weight ratio, and cooling might be one of the big ones.

Like you said, I suspect cooling these little motors might be significant challenge, adding cost/complexity to the system.

Also, these require BLDC motor controllers. Are you also planning to use RC market controllers, one for each wheel motor? Are controllers with suitable continuous power levels to drive a car available?

Hopefully motor experts will comment on feasibility of these motors in a full size vehicle.

I don't think 2 7kW peak motors will move a car in EV mode. 14kW is not even close to acceleration power required for 2000-3000lb car. My car takes 50-60kW to accelerate, and 15-20 kW to cruise, depending on speed and rate of acceleration. Obviously you can't expect to run motors at their peak power during cruising, you'll burn them out.

So, that means more motors, which adds cost/complexity. At some point when all is counted you will get to diminishing return with your system.

Have you seen NetGain's EMIS system? http://www.go-ev.com/EMIS.html

They put Warp motor in the middle of a RWD driveshaft. IMHO, that is much better approach to DIY hybrid. Very simple mechanical design, minimal intrusion into car's components.

I don't think you give NetGain enough credit.

The only reason I can see for NetGain's strategy, apart from possible poor quality technology updates, is trying to get a profit as long as possible from their existing technology. Which is the best way to become an obsolete industry. Why were there lots of horses at the beginning of the 20th century and no cars or almost no cars? Were horses better? No, they were obsolete.

I think Michelin's Active Wheel is proof enough that it can be done:
http://www.motorauthority.com/blog/1030025_michelins-active-wheel-technology-in-detail
The solution we are proposing here is a down-to-earth, feasible motor wheel for everyone, one you can adapt to your existing car, contrary to Michelin's

Balloons were also toys before carrying passengers.

Cooling should be no real hurdle. These motors are used in performance model airplanes. The only thing to do is replicating their present cooling systems. If required, a dedicated small motor and fan could be installed. In the worst case scenario, it would be fairly easy to coil a thin copper tube around the motor and glue it with a heat conducting resin. Doesn't seem extremely difficult. We will try air cooling first, then liquid if required.

The controllers should be the same they are using now. They are probably quite well adapted to the power of their matching motors.

For a 2000-3000 lb, you can use 2 15kW if you want. A Peugeot 106 electrique is 21kW peak, it is heavy with lots of batteries and it is perfectly capable of keeping up with traffic. A professional cyclist is a little under 500W. Assuming anyone can push a car with 500W, 14kW would be about 28 people pushing/pulling a car. The car will start to move with a decent acceleration, no doubt.

Thank you for your car's figures. They are a good orientation. But take into account that the gearbox, differential, cardans, etc, mean 30% losses. So what you do with your car can be replicated with a 30% less energy if there are no such losses (or very little ones). It also means a longer range for any given battery pack. I assume 50-60kW is sportive acceleration, which is not intended for this system. Even so, 70% of 50 is 35, quite close to 2 motors of 15kW peak. 70% of 20kW for cruising is 14kW, it looks quite relaxed for 2 15kW motors.

If the system is scaled up, so are the costs, and returns diminish as you say. Sport cars are always less efficient in economic terms. But with this system you keep some inherent advantages, specially good for sport cars: lower weight, no transmission, and more importantly, extra space for batteries and less friction losses, two important factors that can improve range significantly. Even if the system ends up costing the same as a good electric sport car, this system is intrinsically better because of lower weight, lower friction and potentially increased range and performance.

I hadn't seen this EMIS. It is an interesting concept. Thanks. However there is no much talk about it. Any reasons?

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

This description rang a bell. I knew I had seen an attempt like this before.

Then I found it.

http://depletedcranium.com/hybrid-conversion-kit-for-existing-automobiles/


Eric

It is as similar as getting a stomach implanted or getting a stomach attached to the outside of your belly. Which one will you prefer?

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

These motors are talking about pulling < 20 kg. Maybe it would work for a bike motor, but I will bet my lunch money that this will not have the torque to budge even a golf cart. The max amperage is only like 145 A as well. You'd practically have to push-start the golf cart. I see no way a motor of this caliber could even begin to get the job done.

I wish the best of luck, but I am extremely skeptical that these can offer any sort of performance at all.

The magic words are 8 to 1 transmission ratio and little losses. You'd be surprised what that means.

 

[esoneson]

Ok, so now you say all you need are two 15Kw motor kits.
One for each rear wheel.
Simple.
Easy.
Kit form.

Let's see now, before we even get to costs of cooling, costs of the magical 8 to 1 transmission ratio device, costs of mounting and all the other little do-dads let's look at the costs of the motors and controllers (you forgot to mention that little ditty, didn't you?).

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

Oh yes, that 15Kw per motor is peak lasting 15 seconds or you burn it up.


I love it when someone has great ideas but is unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

Your numbers, both economical and electrical, just don't add up.

If you think I am wrong....prove it....with a prototype built with your money.

I would love to be proven wrong because I would love to have an economical hybrid add-on to save on gas costs and reduce polution.

Eric

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Ok, so now you say all you need are two 15Kw motor kits.
One for each rear wheel.
Simple.
Easy.
Kit form.

Let's see now, before we even get to costs of cooling, costs of the magical 8 to 1 transmission ratio device, costs of mounting and all the other little do-dads let's look at the costs of the motors and controllers (you forgot to mention that little ditty, didn't you?).

15kw motor......899 EUR.....or about $1,170US times 2......$2,340
controller.........599 EUR.....or about $780 times 2.......$1,560

Let's see....add that up, carry the one........$3,900

Oh yes, that 15Kw per motor is peak lasting 15 seconds or you burn it up.


I love it when someone has great ideas but is unwilling to put their money where their mouth is.

Your numbers, both economical and electrical, just don't add up.

If you think I am wrong....prove it....with a prototype built with your money.

I would love to be proven wrong because I would love to have an economical hybrid add-on to save on gas costs and reduce polution.

Eric

Esoneson,

Apparently you're adding up the right figures. Only apparently. You are forgetting to compare with the existing alternative conversion. There are no hybrid add-ons so far, so you have to compare with a typical EV conversion. That means $10,000-12,000 for the average conversion, see www.evalbum.com

Then you have to take into account that you will only need a small battery pack (big savings) and that there are no assembly costs or very small ones. Then you get a car which is perceived as more desirable than a pure electric by 90% of consumers.

A small lithium battery pack of 8kW (good for about 30 miles at about 250 Wh per mile) is about $2,500, weighing about 60kg or about 133lbs.
http://www.thunder-sky.com/products_en.asp
BMS can be about $500.

So we are talking here of a system that will cost under $10,000 and will be perceived by most people as preferable to a pure electric with the current technology. I think the numbers are favorable to the new system.

Then we can discuss the prices of motors.

It is true the motors and controllers are not cheap. Well, in fact their price is not cheap, but there's no reason why a 15kW will not cost just double of a 7kW, that is $200, or even $100, considering they are using the same amount of materials apparently (similar weight). It means there are very considerable profits and the price can be lowered considerably.

Then you have to take into account that even with the present prices, you could be using two 7kW motors, for instance. A Peugeot 106 electrique weighs in about 1,100 kg or 2400lbs. It is 21kW peak, BUT there are 30% losses from motor to wheel (single big engine coupled to a complicated transmission). It means the Peugeot could be using a 14.7kW peak motor if only there weren't such big loses. That is, two 7kW direct to the wheels.

All this means that you could get a 2,400 lbs car to perform similarly to a Peugeot 106 electrique with $200 in motors. Not bad, huh?

I hope this proves you wrong for the sake of all of us, including you of course

 

[esoneson]

Thanks for the numbers, I had no idea.

$12,000 for a full conversion
$10,000 for a hybrid add-on


Seems like the best thing to do is save $2,000. Little work, have the gas savings right away. Little down time for the vehicle.

Then again the cost for the existing system from http://depletedcranium.com/hybrid-conversion-kit-for-existing-automobiles/
is $3,300 per wheel. Times 2 is $6,600 plus $3000 for batteries and bms comes to $9,600.

So, sounds like your estimated cost for your system is pretty close to an existing hybrid system.

So now I weigh $12,000 for conversion costs with $0 for gas, $0 for ICE maintenance against $10,000 add on hybrid costs with 20% gas savings and normal costs for ICE maintenance..........over a period of the life of the batteries, say 10 years.

It will take me a while to figure this out because I am a little slow.

But, thanks again for the numbers, it really does help me to decide.

Eric

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Eric,

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...e_150A_OPTO_2-6S_Brushless_ESC_(DE_Warehouse)

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around

$6,500

Compared to that, the Poulsen system is not a real competitor. It is not a beauty,
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/
It is still not available, they "will notify you" through an email list when it is available
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/FAQS.php

Also I wanted to add that it is not that you are having 20% gas savings. If you drive less than 30 miles a day (or 60 if recharging once during daytime), you will probably refuel only once in one or two months. And you will still be able to go with your car on long trips out of the range of a pure electric. It is probably 80% gas savings while keeping the long gas range at a far cheaper price than a pure electric or other hybrid add-ons.

We think this system is worth every cent.

Have a good day.

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Can somebody please explain what is the process for the US (or elsewhere) road authorities to allow a car to legally go on the road with the hybrid kit we are talking about?

Thanks

 

[esoneson]

Eric,

The total cost of the hybrid system we are proposing here can be brought down by $3,400 when using the two 7kW motors (good for a 2,400lbs car). These motors are $99 each, their controllers are $129 each
http://www.unitedhobbies.com/UNITED...e_150A_OPTO_2-6S_Brushless_ESC_(DE_Warehouse)

So $99 + $129 = $228, times 2, total cost is $456
that is, the 14kW system (good for a 2,400lbs car) is 3,444 cheaper than the 30kW system

This brings the cost for the 14kW system somewhere around

$6,500

Compared to that, the Poulsen system is not a real competitor. It is not a beauty,
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/
It is still not available, they "will notify you" through an email list when it is available
http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/FAQS.php

Also I wanted to add that it is not that you are having 20% gas savings. If you drive less than 30 miles a day (or 60 if recharging once during daytime), you will probably refuel only once in one or two months. And you will still be able to go with your car on long trips out of the range of a pure electric. It is probably 80% gas savings while keeping the long gas range at a far cheaper price than a pure electric or other hybrid add-ons.

We think this system is worth every cent.

Have a good day.

I am sorry, I misunderstood what you meant by hybrid. I thought you were talking about an electrical assist type of setup. Using your kit will enable me to drive using only electricity for the first 30 miles (which is all about what I drive in a day anyway). Therefore I would not need to gas up only if I go over that limit.

That makes sense.

And to think I could do it using two 7KW motors is just fantastic.

My car is just under 3000 pounds.

So, I looked up the specifications (I'm a stickler for that sort of thing) of that motor. Each motor is the "Equivalent: 60-80cc Gas Engine".

So, again, miracle upon miracle....I can propel (i.e. accelerate, maintain speed, go up hill and down) my 3000 pound car with an electric propulsion equivalent to 120-160 CC Gas engine.

I got to hand it to you, that's fantastic. How do you do that?

And, by the way, I see one big difference between you and Poulsen....they have a working prototype...you don't.

And when it comes to allowing a hybrid kit on the road in the U.S., it is done mostly on a state by state basis for a kit like yours. That's 50 potentially different sets of rules and regulations. But, I think that is the least of your worries now. First, you have to make a prototype that works to put people like me to shame.

I am having a good day and I hope you do to.

Eric

 

[JOT 12directblue.com]

Eric,

OK, no power assist hybrid. Still, in the simplest version it will be required to keep the gas engine idling to get power assist for the steering and brakes. Or electric vacuum pump and steering pump can be mounted, therefore allowing to drive purely on electric.

If your car is about 3000 pounds it is a bit too heavy for this 14kW system, I'm sorry to say, even if there are not 30% losses as in conventional propulsion systems. The 14kW system is intended for city driving mostly. Perhaps it can be used on a flat highway below 45mph or so in a small car. But not in such a heavy car.

Assuming the motors are 3.5kW continous power, that would be 7kW. Because of the efficiency of the transmission, that equals to 10kW in a conventional engine setup (with 30% transmission losses), or about 13HP. Perhaps a small car could travel at 45mph on a flat road with 13HP. You should not expect more than that from the 14kW system, and I think it is already quite a lot from such an inexpensive setup.

If you're not satisfied with that power for your present car, you have three options.
1) Buy a cheap small urban car and add the kit to it.
2) Go for a more powerful setup for your existing car or buy an EV.
3) Do nothing and keep to your gas bills.

I'm sorry to say you are wrong again with the comparison between Poulsen and us. They only have a working prototype, we have real world motors manufactured in series and a few trivial CNC parts to manufacture. That's a big difference. The motor, the heart of the Poulsen system seems to be nowhere near to a big production figure. Which waiting list would you prefer?

We will be building a prototype starting in september as I said. No need to put anyone to shame

Thanks for your comments