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If you could buy an EV1 now, would you get one?

  • Yes, I loved my EV1, definitely want another one.

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Yes, I wanted an EV1, but didn't get one.

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • Maybe, it would depend on price and comfort

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • No, my current vehicle is better than the EV1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other (comment below)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4
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Discussion Starter #1
For all the former EV1 drivers and EV1 enthusiasts. Would you buy a vehicle that is almost identical to the EV1 (notice I said buy, not lease), but it not be an actual EV1? It would have all the characteristics of the EV1, its looks and performance. Also, consider if it had a 350 mile range and was also available as a four-seater. Just curious.
 

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I can't contribute having never so much as seen an EV1 in the flesh, but this sounds very interesting.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to see an EV1 in person, either. It's still sad to hear about its death, even 9 years later. Do you think if the EV1 would have today's LiFePO4 batteries, could it achieve 350-400 mile range?
 

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Actually, no. Not in traffic conditions at least. On an oval track at speeds below 55, it probably could.

LiFePO4 batteries have roughly the same energy density as the NiMh batteries that later versions of the EV1 were equipped with. So a leadfoot range of 100 miles or more could be expected and maybe up to 150 if you went easy on the go pedal. Thats my feeling anyway.

Something like Lithium Polymer batteries could in theory push 200wh/kg and that will push the range above the 200 mark, but still not quite 300 for real world driving. LiPo batteries are more expensive, less reliable and don't take abuse of a moving traction application as well. Cycle life is also lower too. All of which are reasons for why its so rare to find them installed in an EV.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Wonder why most EV's don't have a separate regen control so the friction brakes can be used even less.

http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp85/jcganley/DSCF1566.jpg

The pot box on the homemade control panel controls regen from 0 to full in this revived EV1. The full thread can be found at:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15794&sid=e2db75b22f8c8de6c573da3ca27343ec

He just got it rolling this time last year. I was thinking maybe have a second brake pedal that controls just this.
 

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Hello all. Poor EV-1. Mutilating it by adding those ugly controls... and a gas engine for pete's sake? Did I read that correctly? Personally, I would have built a shrine for it and leave it alone or at least make it better than what it was which means no ICE would ever touch it.

Then there's the idea of the conversion itself. A genset plus a bank of capacitors. The motor will spin twice on caps power and then go straight to the generator for further movement. That better be a big generator to power that car forward. And it better be a road-worthy one and be able to pass vehicle emissions tests which most cheapies do not.

So what's next for this university team, convert their CD collection to vinyl?

JR
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
GM did the same thing to make the Volt. They're also why this one has a gas engine. I don't think it can be driven on main roads, thanks again to GM and their binding contract. I wonder if it's possible to purchase one of the donated EV1's. If I only had the money :rolleyes:.

Although, I do have to admit that the Volt does ride pretty nice. Still rather have my solar car or a Nissan LEAF.
 

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Yeah I heard about the strange rules GM put on the organizations that were allowed to have EV1s too. I could play devil's advocate for not putting the car into production, recalling them to some degree, I could even maybe - MAYBE forgive "recycling" most of them as good corporate policy instead of having to pay to have them stored indefinitely (well not really, but hear me out).

But to hold a gun to a university's head and say you can see but never touch this piece of automotive history or we will take it away from you just re enforces all of the perception that GM was trying to quell over the last 5 years. It makes no sense to me.

Is GM really that scared to see a ghost driving around on the street?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
GM would allow the universities to tinker with them, but not drive them on any street. Driving them on the universities parking lots and on tracks were allowed. Since they were losing money on each one made, they were afraid that the car would be successful (although it was with the public) and it would run them bankrupt. So they cancelled the program, reclaimed all the cars, and crushed all but about 40. I can see cancelling the program, but what I can't figure out is why destroy them? They could easily sell them and maintaining them would not be a big hassle or expense. But with Big Oil pushing you, it's hard to sell EV's. I wonder if the Impact and EV1 had some effect on GM's other vehicles' designs, such as the Lumina APV, the third generation Cavalier (EV1 and Cavalier have the same windshield wiper control stalk), or the 4th generation Camaro/Firebird.

I think it's funny. We are talking about the EV1, my avatar is a green EV1 charging, and your avatar is the Impact.
 

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Thats the same story I heard about what GM did with the surviving cars.

And yes, do I love the impact. Not easy finding photos of it today but I posted what I could find on a short thread a while ago.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?p=86873

The EV1 and impact were both great cars, but I just prefer the impact if for no other reason than it looks "meaner".:)

I wonder what ever happened to it? That was something I could never find out.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I heard that 50 test Impacts were leased to a few experimenters in the real world. When the very successful (what was called prEView) concluded, all 50 Impacts were destroyed. Kind of foreshadowed the EV1, but went unnoticed by many. Sorry to break the news. :(
 

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For all the former EV1 drivers and EV1 enthusiasts. Would you buy a vehicle that is almost identical to the EV1 (notice I said buy, not lease), but it not be an actual EV1? It would have all the characteristics of the EV1, its looks and performance. Also, consider if it had a 350 mile range and was also available as a four-seater. Just curious.
I'm an enthusiast to any vehicle with similar or better than the aerodynamics of my current car, a 1st Generation Honda Insight as the only vehicle better than it and was available for either sale or lease in the past 20 years has been the EV1. Unfortunately they never sold the car for the MSRP that they quoted in their promotional materials and only leased it and never continued the program. Since its not available today, I have the next best thing. I'm quite satisfied with what I own now ...but if someone produced a 4 seater electric with better CdA than a 1st Gen Insight, or a gasoline car that I could purchase down the road and convert myself, I'm all over it.

Right now there are only two concepts that seem like they may be close (Mitsubishi Concept Global Small), or better (VW XL1).

I'd actually take the GM Precept design as it has a Cd of 0.163 while the EV1 was 0.195. ..or the Ford Prodigy with a Cd of 0.199 I think the Prodigy is about the nicest looking sub 0.2 Cd cars out there and has the most 'consumer acceptable' looks, IMHO better appearance than a Prius.

If I was able to buy an EV1 body or something with reasonably close aerodynamics in a 4+ seater and wasn't ungodly heavy or unsafe, I'd buy it for a reasonable price.
 

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I heard that 50 test Impacts were leased to a few experimenters in the real world. When the very successful (what was called prEView) concluded, all 50 Impacts were destroyed. Kind of foreshadowed the EV1, but went unnoticed by many. Sorry to break the news. :(
Yeah, me too:(. On the other hand - WOW! I had no idea they made that many impact prototypes. All this time I thought they made one or maybe two of them.
 

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Wonder why most EV's don't have a separate regen control so the friction brakes can be used even less.
Why would you want separate regen control? You brake a little, it regens, you brake a lot, it adds the mechanical brake. No worries.

The only issue I've heard is that with Teslas you have to stomp the brakes every 6 months or so to shake the dust off and keep them functional. For typical driving the mechanical brakes are never used.
 

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GM would allow the universities to tinker with them, but not drive them on any street. Driving them on the universities parking lots and on tracks were allowed. Since they were losing money on each one made, they were afraid that the car would be successful (although it was with the public) and it would run them bankrupt. So they cancelled the program, reclaimed all the cars, and crushed all but about 40. I can see cancelling the program, but what I can't figure out is why destroy them? They could easily sell them and maintaining them would not be a big hassle or expense. But with Big Oil pushing you, it's hard to sell EV's. I wonder if the Impact and EV1 had some effect on GM's other vehicles' designs, such as the Lumina APV, the third generation Cavalier (EV1 and Cavalier have the same windshield wiper control stalk), or the 4th generation Camaro/Firebird.

I think it's funny. We are talking about the EV1, my avatar is a green EV1 charging, and your avatar is the Impact.
I seriously doubt the EV1 had any influence on F bodies. I had an 86 Trans Am which had a cd of .29. The fourth gens put the wipers back up in the air flow and changed the design raising the drag to .32 to .34 in some cases. In all the third gen f bodies where slipperier than the fourth gen f bodies.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Just wondering if there was a connection. I guess if I were to recreate my own version of the EV1/Impact, I would take either a late 90's Saturn two-door or a 3th / 4th gen Camaro. Could have had the electric Saturn, but it was too far away to go pick it up.

I guess I could see your point there about needing to use mechanical brakes once in a while to scrape the rust off the rotors, but it would add a little extra range in situations where you need more braking than what set regen gives, having a control to temporarily bump up regen in these cases could give you a free song on the radio (electricity wise). But say in a certain case with a Volt and you happen to travel Wolf Creek Pass in Colorado. On the downhill side, you could use the regen control and potentially recharge the battery almost to full, since only about 60% of the Volt's battery is used. Save the mechanical brakes for when regen ceases to provide the needed braking power.

50 Impacts and pictures are hard to find. 1,500 Tesla Roadsters and more pictures than my computer can hold. :rolleyes: The main story can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
Even before the EV1 was made GM was planning for failure. "The vehicle has come up short", yeah I suppose it would when the company is suppressing it. If they were made available for SALE in way more locations than SoCal and Arizona, that requirement, just by adding the rest of California, could easily be met.

Before the program was cancelled, GM did experiment other drivetrains in the EV1. Probably most popular, was the four-seater serial hybrid EV1. It was stretched 19 inches, rear seats added, and a gas turbine installed in the trunk. This was the start of the Chevy Volt, 12 years ago. By the way, how is that Insight running? Where I live, it is very rare to see one. The new Insight and a ton of Prii (I'll use their new plural term) can be found, though. I drove a 2010 Ford Focus, and on the highway, coasting, it would not slow down. Not in anybody's draft, 60 mph, let off of the pedal and it stayed at 60 for quite a while. I suppose you could wait for the Focus EV to come out and see how you like it.

Most of the info on the EV1 can be found on the Wikipedia page, linked above.
 

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"Just wondering if there was a connection. I guess if I were to recreate my own version of the EV1/Impact, I would take either a late 90's Saturn two-door or a 3th / 4th gen Camaro. Could have had the electric Saturn, but it was too far away to go pick it up."

You'd be making some compromises with weight and aerodynamics versus the EV1 and Impact. They aren't bad cars though, good aerodynamics. I like the 1995+ Toyota Tercel design and its right at 2000 pounds or so but then again I'm a big fan of the mid-90's Toyota stuff and have a 95 Prizm(Corolla rebadged) but its a hair too large of a frontal area and about 400 more pounds than I'd like to convert. My current one has a hair too much rust and annoyances I wouldn't want to live with in an EV like issues with the locks(one freezes in the winter with car washes, passenger side doesn't work at all) and its not quite in the shape I want it to be in. There are a bunch of options for good aerodynamics some obtainable and cheap, others exotic and expensive. I usually compare them in the drag area section here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficients I drive on the highway and have little start and stopping in my commute so I'm all about the aero, weight isn't as big of a concern outside of performance, but I do want my performance too without getting too costly on motors, controllers, and batteries.

"I guess I could see your point there about needing to use mechanical brakes once in a while to scrape the rust off the rotors, but it would add a little extra range in situations where you need more braking than what set regen gives, having a control to temporarily bump up regen in these cases could give you a free song on the radio (electricity wise). But say in a certain case with a Volt and you happen to travel Wolf Creek Pass in Colorado. On the downhill side, you could use the regen control and potentially recharge the battery almost to full, since only about 60% of the Volt's battery is used. Save the mechanical brakes for when regen ceases to provide the needed braking power."

I agree with wanting a separate control for regen because then if you have the time to stop with full regen, it can be difficult when you combine the pedal to know the transition point. I like how Victor of Metric Mind did it with his CRX by putting a sliding pot into the gear shift mechanism. I wouldn't mind a 4th smaller pedal to do the same, or a small lever somewhere around the gear shift lever area. Opinions vary on this, just my 2 cents. I'm actually probably going without regen due to my experience with getting almost nothing back from it with my Insight, even when trying very hard to gather as much as I can, I can't get more than a few hundred watt-hours a day, it just doesn't add up on the flat when I usually have chances to coast and the rest is steady speed highway. YMMV

"By the way, how is that Insight running?"
The Insight is running great and I get 70mpg with my highway commute when the weather is above 50 degrees and I've got the stock tires on it. Right now I've still got the snows on the front and stock tires on the rear and its around 30's and 40's and I'm about to fill up, I'm at 61mpg and will be filling up today a little over 600 miles of driving and it will be about 10 gallons. Driving from Rapid City, SD to the Twin Cities I went 630.5 miles off of 8.6 gallons or so, I can't remember the next decimal 8.63 gallons I think but it was 73mpg driving at the max performance of lean-burn the whole way which is about 70-78mph if the wind, temperature is warm or hot, and if the road is flat otherwise you slow down a bit and drop out of lean-burn if you want to maintain speed. It's 50-55mpg if you are my friend who drove traveling 85mph. Trouble is that their value went up quite a bit with the recent rise in gas prices to $3.50+, I can't buy another one for the price I paid for mine February 2010 unless there is some scratches, damage, or some other issues. ...it's what you get for the most fuel efficient gasoline car ever made. I want to get another and convert it to electric, problem is that finding one with a bad engine is tough and people don't seem to mind buying one with a bad battery right now, last fall I had my chances at some at a good price right now they disappear in less than a week. I'd like to convert a 4+ seater but its a tough decision because I could use so much less battery and make the conversion that much cheaper and higher performing with an Insight.

I hope I'm not getting too far off topic with the gasoline/MPG talk, we might want to bring additional conversation into PM if you'd like, I do like sharing info about my car so feel free to ask questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I heard of something called MIMA, which utilized a joystick to override the default IMA and provide manual control of the electric motor, boosting fuel efficiency. Between this and a solar roof, you could probably touch 100 mpg. I believe that the same guy is making all electric Insights with modified Prius drivetrains. http://99mpg.com But to try to stick to the main topic, EV's. A company called Solar Electrical Systems has a division called SEV which makes solar roofs for the Prius, RAV-4 EV, and the Highlander hybrid. The solar Prius can get an electric range of 30 miles with the solar. After that, the regular hybrid system kicks back in, but still receiving the power from the solar panel.
 

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You wouldn't get enough solar for it to be worth it, in the solar arena the roof of a passenger sedan is not large enough to produce good enough power. For me it would be even more worthless since I park my car in the garage to keep my paint from getting faded and slowly destroyed by the sun and to keep the snow off of it in the winter and to keep it shaded so it stays cooler in the blazing summer sun. Only decent solar installations will also have no aerodynamic drag added, which you would never recover from.

It would be easier and cheaper to use lower density more affordable panels and grid-tie the electricity and use net metering to offset your electrical usage and you will always get the benefit when the sun is out rather than if the car is in the sun and the panels will be angled at an ideal angle to the sun as well versus flat on the roof of a car.
 
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