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23122 Views 184 Replies 23 Participants Last post by  LithiumaniacsEVRacing, 
LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Boy this is a touchy subject. But, I am very interested in what the difference is in the 1/4 mile, 2000amps of a "short burst" then dropping below 750amps, or 1000amps continuous. Now I don't want to cause any beefs between organizations or companies.:(

I am looking for feedback from Zilla 2K racers and feedback from Soliton racers. There must be some racing data?

For example: You guys that have been racing Zilla's, how many seconds does the 2000amps hold before dropping?:confused:

Please no fighting or bad mouthing any companies, just opinions and data.:eek:
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Qer
LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
Boy this is a touchy subject. But, I am very interested in what the difference is in the 1/4 mile, 2000amps of a "short burst" then dropping below 750amps, or 1000amps continuous.
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From all the data I've seen from the Zilla (like graphs from Plasmaboys homepage etc) I can tell you that:


  1. A well cooled Zilla Z2K will give you enough Amps long enough (definitely for 1/4 mile) to beat a S1, all other things equal. The S1 MIGHT win in the long run (Cafe Electrics own specs says that a Z2K drops to 900 Amps continuously, but I have no first hand data on that so I haven't been able to verify), but not on the drag racing strip. That's Z2K-territory for now.
  2. Your biggest limit (besides the motor current limit) that will affect the slip time will be the battery pack. If you have a crappy pack the 2kA will drop rapidly to much more mediocre currents as RPM (and thus motor voltage) increases so it's definitely possible that if you're on a budget a S1 with a good pack will be a better pick than a Z2K with a crappy pack. After all, a chain isn't stronger than it's weakest link. However, if money's not a problem Z2K is your winner, no doubt about that.
  3. You better hurry buying a Z2K if you want one. I doubt Otmar has many left now...
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
I thank you for your input. I need first hand racers to respond who race with Zilla Z2k's, I have heard they might drop all the way down to 700 amps after the burst of 2000amps. I am looking for seconds that a Zilla holds 2000amps?

Being a drag racer of many types of vehicles with many style engines (Mopar/Chevy), I have learned over the years that your engines "power bands" must be matched to rear differentials. Knowing this with building an EV dragster you can use your "motor/battery/controller" power bands "peaks" to build a fast race car. If you know you "peak power" will start strong and stay strong through the race you match that band to your rear, if you know your "peak power" will start very strong then die as the band continuous then you must match your gears to that style.

For example, you will find racers will do faster runs once they have figured out the proper gear ratio to "camshaft lift/duration" of a ICE.

Watch some drag racing, some cars will jump from the line but lose it in the end, that is the difference in racing. Matching your components. :D

Qer said:
From all the data I've seen from the Zilla (like graphs from Plasmaboys homepage etc) I can tell you that:


  1. A well cooled Zilla Z2K will give you enough Amps long enough (definitely for 1/4 mile) to beat a S1, all other things equal. The S1 MIGHT win in the long run (Cafe Electrics own specs says that a Z2K drops to 900 Amps continuously, but I have no first hand data on that so I haven't been able to verify), but not on the drag racing strip. That's Z2K-territory for now.
  2. Your biggest limit (besides the motor current limit) that will affect the slip time will be the battery pack. If you have a crappy pack the 2kA will drop rapidly to much more mediocre currents as RPM (and thus motor voltage) increases so it's definitely possible that if you're on a budget a S1 with a good pack will be a better pick than a Z2K with a crappy pack. After all, a chain isn't stronger than it's weakest link. However, if money's not a problem Z2K is your winner, no doubt about that.
  3. You better hurry buying a Z2K if you want one. I doubt Otmar has many left now...
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
I plan on testing my 300ZX with the Soliton 1 with a very very strong battery pack and two Netgain 11" motors. I will test with 3 different sets of gear ratios (quick change rear) at a local 1/4 strip that is private air field here in CT. If my times are close to 10's then we will use the Soliton 1 for our 2011 season. The car will not be in White Zombie's class because I am tubbing out the rear with a shortened rear. The 300ZX comes with a 3 piece rear style differeintials that I cannot use with two 11" motors. George at Netgain said these motors together will / have blown up 3 piece rear ends. :eek:

The Mits 3000GT will use the Soliton1, I plan on racing the Mits in some road courses also. :p
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DIYguy
LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
I plan on testing my 300ZX with the Soliton 1 with a very very strong battery pack and two Netgain 11" motors. I will test with 3 different sets of gear ratios (quick change rear) at a local 1/4 strip that is private air field here in CT. If my times are close to 10's then we will use the Soliton 1 for our 2011 season. The car will not be in White Zombie's class because I am tubbing out the rear with a shortened rear. The 300ZX comes with a 3 piece rear style differeintials that I cannot use with two 11" motors. George at Netgain said these motors together will / have blown up 3 piece rear ends. :eek:

The Mits 3000GT will use the Soliton1, I plan on racing the Mits in some road courses also. :p
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Why not use two Soliton1's ....one for each motor, and get them opened up for 1400 amps each? (if you meet the criteria....and can talk Jeff and Qer into it... :rolleyes:)
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
I have heard this is possible. I know the Soliton 1 can go to 1400amps. I would have to speak with Jeff/George if this is possible.

I know Jeff reads these boards and posts, please respond on this question, is it possible? :confused: You may not recommend it for every day use or the basic street racer, but my monster 300ZX will handle anything it can get.

I can call George at EVNetcis (my contact) but I would love for Jeff to respond public or private. :D

Remember Jeff, with Zilla's no longer available racers are looking for the next answer. My situtation is different than most racers because I am using two motors. ;)

I am a Auto Technician not an electrical engineer, I need advice when it comes to the electronics. I will have the car ready with a 4 link shortened rear, tubbed wheels and a few frame supports. The seats are being replaced with race seats (much lighter) no trans (much lighter) the body is mostly be replaced with all carbon fiber. Car might be under 3000lbs.

DIYguy said:
Why not use two Soliton1's ....one for each motor, and get them opened up for 1400 amps each? (if you meet the criteria....and can talk Jeff and Qer into it... :rolleyes:)
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
I love learning this new technology being applied into the racing scene. It is going to be hard for me and my partners to impress my drag racing buddies to drop their ICE's and go electric unless I prove it on the track.

Shoot I'll buy / install 5 Solitons in the car if it will help, LOL. :p

I haven't taken much time to look into the design of battery to controller to motor, because I have been busy designing the rear and other section of the dragster, but the time is coming soon when the motors will be shipped so this controller wiring issue needs to be configured. :eek:

Looking for all the electrical engineers help!:D
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Tesseract
LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
I have heard this is possible. I know the Soliton 1 can go to 1400amps. I would have to speak with Jeff/George if this is possible.
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We discontinued the 1400A option a long time ago both because 1400A peak still won't compete with a Z2K in a drag race so why bother and because the Big Sol is on the way. That said, Big Sol is on the slow development track, mainly because it is a total money loser for Evnetics, and only good for bragging rights/advertising.

LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
I know Jeff reads these boards and posts...
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I read SOME of this board... I work most days - including weekends - from 5am until 7-8p. In between that I might check a message or two on the forums, etc., but don't think for a minute I read every one of them. I simply don't have the time.


LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
Remember Jeff, with Zilla's no longer available racers are looking for the next answer. My situtation is different than most racers because I am using two motors. ;)
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Otmar finally ran out of Z2Ks, huh? IIRC, he had about 10-15 in stock a year ago... that snail-like sales rate is why Big Sol is the red-headed stepchild of the Evnetics development schedule...

Most racers use two motors, btw. If you are using the WarP11HV motor be advised that if you wire them in series you will run out of voltage (RPM) really early on, but if you wire them in parallel you don't get the same off the line pull. As far as I can tell, the WarP11HV is really meant to be used in single motor applications.
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JRP3
Tesseract said:
Most racers use two motors, btw. If you are using the WarP11HV motor be advised that if you wire them in series you will run out of voltage (RPM) really early on, but if you wire them in parallel you don't get the same off the line pull. As far as I can tell, the WarP11HV is really meant to be used in single motor applications.
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Wouldn't using two motors with a Soliton for each be the same thing?
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Jeff,

Thanks for responding. The 300ZX is not using the 11"HV motor, the 3000GT is using one 11"HV motor. We are installing the dual "regular" 11" Netgain Motors already connected together, George will have my motors ready in December. He said this same "set-up" ripped the rear end out of a BMW, torque city. That is why I am installing a 4 link drag racing rear. Now that you know my motors in the 300ZX are not HV, will two controllers improve anything? What are your thoughts?:confused:

Tesseract said:
We discontinued the 1400A option a long time ago both because 1400A peak still won't compete with a Z2K in a drag race so why bother and because the Big Sol is on the way. That said, Big Sol is on the slow development track, mainly because it is a total money loser for Evnetics, and only good for bragging rights/advertising.



I read SOME of this board... I work most days - including weekends - from 5am until 7-8p. In between that I might check a message or two on the forums, etc., but don't think for a minute I read every one of them. I simply don't have the time.




Otmar finally ran out of Z2Ks, huh? IIRC, he had about 10-15 in stock a year ago... that snail-like sales rate is why Big Sol is the red-headed stepchild of the Evnetics development schedule...

Most racers use two motors, btw. If you are using the WarP11HV motor be advised that if you wire them in series you will run out of voltage (RPM) really early on, but if you wire them in parallel you don't get the same off the line pull. As far as I can tell, the WarP11HV is really meant to be used in single motor applications.
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B
i am pretty sure it applies to any DC motor....in series the motors are sharing voltage so with 50% applied to each...300V system mean 150V each, you wont have much area under the curve...in parallel as jeff mentioned, the motors would rev up to 5000rpm no problem but the amperage form the soliton would be shared, 500A to each motor is not what drag racers are looking for...

JRP3 mentioned buying two solitons, that would be what you want to do...

1000A and 300V to each one...granted with voltage sag you will probably only get 250V...so 250kw x2 = 500kw = 671hp NICE

Just make sure and have a battery pack that wont be abused too much if you pull 2000A out of it... A123s maybe...
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major
I am pretty much at a loss for this thread.
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
So, if I am understanding this correctly, if i use two Soliton 1 controllers I can have each motor at 1000amps, but I will need a very strong battery pack to support the sag. Will one battery pack over 340V handle it, or will I need more because of the two seperate motors and controllers? :confused:

Bowser330 said:
i am pretty sure it applies to any DC motor....in series the motors are sharing voltage so with 50% applied to each...300V system mean 150V each, you wont have much area under the curve...in parallel as jeff mentioned, the motors would rev up to 5000rpm no problem but the amperage form the soliton would be shared, 500A to each motor is not what drag racers are looking for...

JRP3 mentioned buying two solitons, that would be what you want to do...

1000A and 300V to each one...granted with voltage sag you will probably only get 250V...so 250kw x2 = 500kw = 671hp NICE

Just make sure and have a battery pack that wont be abused too much if you pull 2000A out of it... A123s maybe...
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
I am sure you will run and have a place to discuss this thread.

major said:
I am pretty much at a loss for this thread.
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Why is Shawn's bike using two Zilla controllers for one motor, what is the benefit?

"The bike features a GE 13-inch forklift DC motor that used to reside in Dennis Berube's electric drag racing S-10 truck, Smokescreen. The motor is fed by two Zilla 2K controllers and a 360 volt pack of A123 lithium batteries."
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
They talk about using two controllers on this thread:

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/evdl-kelley-controller-e-bay-7232p3.html

I need the proper info, will keep searching. :(
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major
LithiumaniacsEVRacing said:
I am sure you will run and have a place to discuss this thread.
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I am pretty much at a loss for this thread. Before it got locked out, the OP said
EV race experience does not matter, DRAG RACING experience matters. In that department I have over 20 years.
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He behaved so badly that no EV racer, that I know about, would be willing to help him figure out a controller problem. And I've seen those guys help each other out, no matter where they lived, and newbies as well. Even lending a controller to a competitor for a race. I might have some input, this is all I am willing to say.

major

That is what I edited out on a second thought. So much for trying to be somewhat nice. If you're such a great drag racer and EV racing doesn't matter, why are you begging for advice? You got no clue.
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Bingo!!!!

Found what I needed to know. Read this guys blog, very helpful:

http://www.evconsultinginc.com/34ford.html

:D:D:D:D:D
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Major,

You know why I dislike you, you have attacked me and my organization in every step. I have no idea why you even posted on my thread. My experience is in auto/bike mechanics. I have never claimed to know EV controllers or motors. I have built and raced many many fast ICE and bikes. I currently own a custom Harley I built in 2005 with a Chopper Guys frame, TP 124" motor, Zippers carb, etc.....

My interest now is in EV racing, sorry I am here to stay. Many have helped me understand how these EV's operate, I am learning everday. My ability to build race cars matched with my business funding should create many new EV's I am interested in building. I have not even started to go wild yet.

O'h I was not begging, just asking for help from more experienced gentlemen in electrical engineering.


major said:
I am pretty much at a loss for this thread. Before it got locked out, the OP said He behaved so badly that no EV racer, that I know about, would be willing to help him figure out a controller problem. And I've seen those guys help each other out, no matter where they lived, and newbies as well. Even lending a controller to a competitor for a race. I might have some input, this is all I am willing to say.

major

That is what I edited out on a second thought. So much for trying to be somewhat nice. If you're such a great drag racer and EV racing doesn't matter, why are you begging for advice? You got no clue.
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LithiumaniacsEVRacing
Back to my original questions.

Using two motors creates many options. Paralle or Series wiring. From what I have read:

Parallel Configuration: 360V pack each motor will get 360V.
Serial Configuration: 360V pack each motor will get 180V each.

Can't I use a larger pack with two controllers and wire them parallel so each motor will get the max amps from each controller and the max volts from the battery pack? Maybe this will create more of a battery sag, and drain the cells much faster.

I see no other way of using two controllers and gaining the max amps from each controller for each motor.

My motors guys say I can use a controller for each motor. I am still waiting for EVNetics to assist in this matter. :confused:
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