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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

I would say you have an excellent chance but you will likely need lots of
persistence. I find that when dealing with paperwork issues it is easiest
to give the answers they want to hear. For instance, when asked how many
CCs say 400, if they question that answer say that your electric motor is
equivalent to a 400cc motorcycle engine.

When I took the skills test for my motorcycle license on my EM they asked me
the cc question which determines parameters for some of the different
obstacles. I answered 250cc, since that is what the bike started out as,
and they went straight to the next step without question. I only offered
one piece of voluntary information. Since you get a heavy deduction for
stalling, I pointed out that my motorcycle was incapable of stalling. I
mentioned that if you don't hear any sound from the motor it is because you
are not supposed to.

damon
>>From: "Mark Eidson" <[email protected]>
>>Reply-To: ElectricMotorcycles <[email protected]>
>>To: ElectricMotorcycles <[email protected]>
>>Subject: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
>>Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:17:40 -0700
>>
>>So I take my bike (
>>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/preview.php?vid=1231 ) down to the
>>local ADOT Level II inspection station to get a VIN number and
>>title........the first guy looked really concerned and asked how many
>>cc's. I explained that it was a 13 HP electric motor. He said that
>>that was not enough for highway use. I explained that it would go
>>over 65 MPH. He said I don't think we can do this and went to get his
>>sargent, who came out with a camera aand took a bunch of pictures and
>>said that they could not inspect it and would send th pictures
>>"upstairs" for review. They would get back to me in 2-3 weeks. Since
>>this bike was built from scratch and does not have a VIN number what
>>do you think my chances are for getting a title? me
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Don't get caught with egg on your face. Play Chicktionary!*
>http://club.live.com/chicktionary.aspx?icid=chick_hotmailtextlink2
>
>

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Discussion Starter #5
RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

Maybe Jim Husted would measure the displacement of a motor armature the size of your's and you could validly say that the little moving part that goes around inside displaces xxx CC's ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Obrien, Haskell W." <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:28 am
Subject: RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
To: [email protected]

> You might prefer to say something like 'It's electric, but It's
> equivalent to a xx cc gas motor.'
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> I don't know if Arizona (I found that out from your EVAlbum page ;-)
> has an IM program. My IM coordinator who is the point man in our
> state for keeping the air clean from automobiles was more than happy
> to walk me through the process.

Two quick questions:

What does IM stand for in this context?

Has anyone on-list registered a homebuilt/conversion in Massachusetts
and would they be willing to contact me off-list about what it involved?
I'm trying to figure out the hoops before I start building.

Thx!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

Hmmm... I don't actually know what the IM stands for, but the test that AZ cars have to pass is called the IM240. Actually, I think that the IM240 has been replaced by the next generation IM test. Maybe it's called the IM240.1 :p Anyway, the test is one where the car goes on a dynomometer and has to accelerate, climb simulated hills, decelerate, maintain speed etc. It is supposed to simulate real world driving conditions.

Brian


---- Greg Owen <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> I don't know if Arizona (I found that out from your EVAlbum page ;-)
> has an IM program. My IM coordinator who is the point man in our
> state for keeping the air clean from automobiles was more than happy
> to walk me through the process.

Two quick questions:

What does IM stand for in this context?

Has anyone on-list registered a homebuilt/conversion in Massachusetts
and would they be willing to contact me off-list about what it involved?
I'm trying to figure out the hoops before I start building.

Thx!
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

One more thing, if you live in Phoenix, and you are going to try to get registration for something weird like a 400cc MC that has been converted to electric [or a Mazda Rx4 :-O ] and you plan on going through the normal emissions rigamaroll, here is what you do. Go to any emissions test station. Then when they give you crap and fail you because they don't know what they're doing, go down to the waiver station on 40th street south of the 202. Those guys will know what they're doing and they will either pass you, or they will tell you where to go (so to speak :) ) This is what I have to do with my Rx4 every year. Only, I add alcohol to the tank first. haha

Brian


---- Greg Owen <[email protected]> wrote:

=============
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> I don't know if Arizona (I found that out from your EVAlbum page ;-)
> has an IM program. My IM coordinator who is the point man in our
> state for keeping the air clean from automobiles was more than happy
> to walk me through the process.

Two quick questions:

What does IM stand for in this context?

Has anyone on-list registered a homebuilt/conversion in Massachusetts
and would they be willing to contact me off-list about what it involved?
I'm trying to figure out the hoops before I start building.

Thx!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

I am referring to to State Vehicle "Inspection and Maintenance" programs. Usually it is for the purpose of maintaining functioning air quality control systems of vehicles. Some places also refer to them as Emission Tests.

For example outrstate lets auto shops perform the "I/M" inspection which is the visual and the exhaust emissions sample testing. http://www.state.ak.us/dmv/reg/vendors.htm Usually a state "Air Quality Coordinator" or somesuch will be in charge of this program.

Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.

----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Owen <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:40 am
Subject: Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
To: [email protected]

> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> > I don't know if Arizona (I found that out from your EVAlbum page
> ;-)
> > has an IM program. My IM coordinator who is the point man in our
> > state for keeping the air clean from automobiles was more than happy
> > to walk me through the process.
>
> Two quick questions:
>
> What does IM stand for in this context?
>
> Has anyone on-list registered a homebuilt/conversion in Massachusetts
> and would they be willing to contact me off-list about what it
> involved? I'm trying to figure out the hoops before I start building.
>
> Thx!
>
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

Brian Jackson wrote:
> Hmmm... I don't actually know what the IM stands for, but the test
> that AZ cars have to pass is called the IM240.

Ah. Google to the rescue: Inspection and Maintenance, with a 240-second
treadmill test.

http://www.aircarecolorado.com/im240tst.htm

Looks like this is a standard some states use. I still remember my
shock when moving from CT (which ha(s|d) limited treadmill testing) to
MA (where the "emissions test" is administered by your local garage, and
generally provides a way for mechanics to drum up business ("Oooh, hey,
your front end is a little loose there. But we can fix that for you..."))
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

Thats exactly it...My state even gives you the directory to those shops. Now we know who pays the protection money to the state :-O

http://www.state.ak.us/dmv/reg/vendors.htm

> Greg Owen wrote:
....<snip a bit>
> generally provides a way for mechanics to drum up business ("Oooh,
> hey,your front end is a little loose there. But we can fix that
> for you..."))
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #13
RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

--- MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]> wrote:

> Maybe Jim Husted would measure the displacement of a
> motor armature the size of your's and you could
> validly say that the little moving part that goes
> around inside displaces xxx CC's ;-)

Hey Mike

That's funny!

Although I'm not sure how funny the ceace and desist
order from some nasty sounding government office would
be 8^o
Nor would it be fun to find myself having to write an
800 page document varifying my methods and
qualifications 8^P
Furthermore I'm doubting a quick "Gee officers I'm
just a small electric motor shop" being an option here
8^)

I love helping you guys out but I'm going to have to
let you guys fight this battle. I do have a few extra
Spartan spears lying around the shop if someone is
needing to barrow one though ;^)

Besides, I'm going to be busy enough here informing
the public that forklifts don't use Siamese 8 motors,
LMAO!

Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric



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Discussion Starter #14
RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

But why not?? What if they need to move super heavy loads, or get around their warehouse faster.
Maybe they'll be asking you to cludge in a Ford 9" into their favorite warehouse lifter.....

too funny....

> Jim Husted wrote:
> <snip a bit>
> Besides, I'm going to be busy enough here informing
> the public that forklifts don't use Siamese 8 motors,
> LMAO!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

In California, there are rules about motorcycles and motor-driven bikes using the freeways. I think they use horsepower as the deciding factor.


David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)

---- MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]> wrote:
Maybe Jim Husted would measure the displacement of a motor armature the size of your's and you could validly say that the little moving part that goes around inside displaces xxx CC's ;-)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Obrien, Haskell W." <[email protected]>
Date: Wednesday, August 1, 2007 11:28 am
Subject: RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
To: [email protected]

> You might prefer to say something like 'It's electric, but It's
> equivalent to a xx cc gas motor.'
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

You could tell them, it a one cylinder motor, with a displacement of the
inside diameter divided by 2 and square times 3.14 times the stroke. The
stroke being one turn of the armature.

For my 11.5 inch GE motor that has a 10 inch ID by 18 inch stroke is
calculated by:

Pi x radius square times the length or

3.14 x 5 x 5 x 18 = 1413 cu.ins.


Or you could take just the volume of the inside of the motor which would be
for me is:

3.14 x 5 x 5 x 16 inch long = 1256 cu.ins.

Now lets say you have 400 volts of batteries that can deliver 2000 amps
through a 2000 amp controller, now the hp would be:

(400 x 2000)/746 = 1072 HP

A motor half the size with a battery pack of 1/2 the power might get you
over 500 hp.

Roland




----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:30 PM
Subject: RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes


>
> --- MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Maybe Jim Husted would measure the displacement of a
> > motor armature the size of your's and you could
> > validly say that the little moving part that goes
> > around inside displaces xxx CC's ;-)
>
> Hey Mike
>
> That's funny!
>
> Although I'm not sure how funny the ceace and desist
> order from some nasty sounding government office would
> be 8^o
> Nor would it be fun to find myself having to write an
> 800 page document varifying my methods and
> qualifications 8^P
> Furthermore I'm doubting a quick "Gee officers I'm
> just a small electric motor shop" being an option here
> 8^)
>
> I love helping you guys out but I'm going to have to
> let you guys fight this battle. I do have a few extra
> Spartan spears lying around the shop if someone is
> needing to barrow one though ;^)
>
> Besides, I'm going to be busy enough here informing
> the public that forklifts don't use Siamese 8 motors,
> LMAO!
>
> Had fun
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
> for the edge of your seat?
> Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
> http://tv.yahoo.com/
>
>
 

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Discussion Starter #18
RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

Mark Eidson wrote:

> If I use the formula someone suggested earlier it has a 72V x 1000A x
> 1.341 = 96.5HP. I guess that will be enough for highway use........

If your goal is to come up with an impressive-sounding number to get the
bike licensed, this will work, but it is nowhere near the power you
actually have available.

At 1000A, your pack will sag to something between nominal and perhaps
half that, so something in the 36-72V ballpark. You've got Odyssey
AGMs, so let's be generous and assume they sag to about 50V @ 1000A.
This gives 50kW from the battery, or about 67HP, but doesn't account for
losses. A rule of thumb is to assume 1000W/HP to account for losses, so
you're down to about 50 motor HP peak (and that is likely optimistic
since the motor is probably nearer to 60% than 80% efficient at this
current).

But, 1000A is the max motor current your Z1K can deliver; >350A is what
it can sustain continuously when hot/warm. Unless the highway portion
of your trip is quite short, an even more realistic estimate of your
available power is more like 24.5kW (70V * 350A) at the battery, or
about 24.5 motor HP.

Looking at the thermal specs for your L91-4003 motor, it looks like it
might be able to sustain this level for about 5min without overheating.
The 1hr rating of 15HP @ 96V suggests that the 13HP (@ 72V) you stated
to the inspector was a realistic and honest assessment.

However, since gas engines are rated at peak output, I think that is the
more appropriate value to quote in this situation; either use the stated
value of 62HP @ 96V or extrapolate based on the published 96V and 120V
data to arrive at 52HP @ 72V a a pretty realistic estimate of the peak
power you can get from this motor in your application.

So, tell the inspector it is a 50-52HP peak motor, but be aware that in
actual highway use you are likely to be limited to somewhere between
13-24HP maximum for any length of time, and this will impact the speed
you can maintain during those highway jaunts.

Cheers,

Roger.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Re: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes

that is in line with NM registration, i was unable to
select zero cylinders, so i have 1 cylinder electric
motorcycle

--- Roland Wiench <[email protected]> wrote:

> You could tell them, it a one cylinder motor, with a
> displacement of the
> inside diameter divided by 2 and square times 3.14
> times the stroke. The
> stroke being one turn of the armature.
>
> For my 11.5 inch GE motor that has a 10 inch ID by
> 18 inch stroke is
> calculated by:
>
> Pi x radius square times the
> length or
>
> 3.14 x 5 x 5 x 18 = 1413 cu.ins.
>
>
> Or you could take just the volume of the inside of
> the motor which would be
> for me is:
>
> 3.14 x 5 x 5 x 16 inch long =
> 1256 cu.ins.
>
> Now lets say you have 400 volts of batteries that
> can deliver 2000 amps
> through a 2000 amp controller, now the hp would be:
>
> (400 x 2000)/746 = 1072 HP
>
> A motor half the size with a battery pack of 1/2 the
> power might get you
> over 500 hp.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Husted" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 2:30 PM
> Subject: RE: [ElectricMotorcycles] Inspection Woes
>
>
> >
> > --- MIKE WILLMON <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe Jim Husted would measure the displacement
> of a
> > > motor armature the size of your's and you could
> > > validly say that the little moving part that
> goes
> > > around inside displaces xxx CC's ;-)
> >
> > Hey Mike
> >
> > That's funny!
> >
> > Although I'm not sure how funny the ceace and
> desist
> > order from some nasty sounding government office
> would
> > be 8^o
> > Nor would it be fun to find myself having to write
> an
> > 800 page document varifying my methods and
> > qualifications 8^P
> > Furthermore I'm doubting a quick "Gee officers I'm
> > just a small electric motor shop" being an option
> here
> > 8^)
> >
> > I love helping you guys out but I'm going to have
> to
> > let you guys fight this battle. I do have a few
> extra
> > Spartan spears lying around the shop if someone is
> > needing to barrow one though ;^)
> >
> > Besides, I'm going to be busy enough here
> informing
> > the public that forklifts don't use Siamese 8
> motors,
> > LMAO!
> >
> > Had fun
> > Cya
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________Ready
>
> > for the edge of your seat?
> > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
> > http://tv.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
>
>


Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1179
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1221
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman



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