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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] Battery testing (was Re: Where to buy Sky Energy?)

Sorry, reading my below questions really looks like I'm trying to be a smar=
t @$s, or put down someone else's efforts. Not my intention at all; sorry =
it's worded so poorly. I guess I was trying to offer my opinion that the b=
est way to test a typical battery a consumer would purchase would be for a =
consumer to purchase one. And it would bother me to know that some test re=
sults were thrown out without knowing what the results where, and why they =
were thrown out. Finally, I _am_ interested in battery testing, so I was w=
ondering what typical tests were, what equipment used, and what typical res=
ults are.

I hope I didn't come across as a jerk...

- Steve


> > I think the manufacturers should
> each send me a free 100
> > amp battery. =

> =

> (100 amp-hour battery?)
> =

> Wouldn't that insure that the manufacture sent you a
> pre-tested battery, possibly hand selected to exceed data
> sheet ratings? Seems to me the only way to ensure you
> get a 'typical' battery is to buy it yourself without
> letting anyone know it's a battery for testing.
> =

> > I will
> > do a clean non biased test, multiple times, multiple
> > batteries and use the
> > best test of each type to publish.
> =

> Why would you only publish the best test, and not all your
> data? So more manufactures would be willing to send
> you free batteries?
> =

> What equipment do you have? What testing procedure
> would you use? What would you measure and how?
> Do you have already published results from previous tests?
> =

> > =

> > Battery manufacturers that would like to be a part of
> these
> > tests can
> > contact me here at [email protected]
> > . I am most interested in
> > Thunder Sky, Sky Energy and High Power but I will test
> any
> > battery that any
> > manufacturer deems appropriate for the EV market.
> > =

> > Results will be shown on my webpage and excel spread
> sheets
> > will be
> > available for download. =

> > =

> > This is no joke, I will do this for the EV community
> and
> > myself of course.
> > =

> > Mark Grasser
> > =

> > =

> > =

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]]
> > On Behalf
> > Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:37 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where to buy Sky Energy?
> > =

> > From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
> > > I am ready to buy my first four batteries. These
> will
> > be for test...
> > > Suggestions as to where to buy and where not to
> > buy...
> > =

> > If it's for a test, why not buy from several
> different
> > vendors? It's your
> > chance to play "Consumer's Reports" and see which
> vendors
> > are good or bad.
> > =

> > In this same vein, wouldn't it be great if someone did
> buy
> > a few of each
> > battery, and tested them, and published the results?
> I've
> > tried to do it,
> > but batteries are so expensive that it can't be done
> as a
> > hobby. So I've
> > wound up testing batteries for clients. Since they
> bought
> > the batteries and
> > paid for the testing, they "own" the data and I can't
> share
> > it.
> > =

> > To make it work, you'd need a club or coop, where
> everyone
> > chips in.
> > =

> > --
> > Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt
> the
> > one who is
> > doing it. -- Chinese proverb
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> > =

> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > =

> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =



=


_______________________________________________
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| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Battery testing (was Re: Where to buy Sky Energy?)

>> I think the manufacturers should each send me a free 100
>> amp[hour] battery.

Steven Ciciora wrote:
> Wouldn't that insure that the manufacture sent you a pre-tested battery, possibly hand selected to exceed data sheet ratings? Seems to me the only way to ensure you get a 'typical' battery is to buy it yourself without letting anyone know it's a battery for testing.

That's what I think would happen. You have to do it like Consumer's
Union does it. Have an anonymous buyer purchase them, the same as any
other customer. Test it, and report how it works.

> Why would you only publish the best test, and not all your data?

You do this if the test is being done for the benefit of the
manufacturer. This is what he "gets" for giving you a free battery.

This is well established in the trade. Lots of "reviews" in magazines
are essentially "bought" by the company by giving the reviewer a free
product in return for a good review.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
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Joined
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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Battery testing (was Re: Where to buy Sky Energy?)

=


>Wouldn't that insure that the manufacture sent you a pre-tested battery,
possibly hand selected to exceed data sheet >ratings? Seems to me the only
way to ensure you get a 'typical' battery is to buy it yourself without
letting anyone >know it's a battery for testing.

Actually it is not unusual for a manufacturer to send a free sample for
testing to be published. If all manufacturers pretest to be sure they are
sending their best one then does it not re-level the playing field?

>Why would you only publish the best test, and not all your data? So more
manufactures would be willing to send you free >batteries?

I did a little more thought and research, it is typical to do 10 or 15
discharge/charge cycles and then do the official discharge and charge for
the comparison. I cannot imagine you would want to sift through all the data
and then create some kind of a judgment from it. I would think you would
trust the tester to use his judgment to deliver the best results.

>What equipment do you have? What testing procedure would you use? What
would you measure and how? Do you have already >published results from
previous tests?

I used to use an Agilent 34970A. All the testing I have ever done were under
contract, sorry I don't even think I have them to show anymore. I now use
Microdata loggers with my own prescalers. They are accurate enough and
portable. Procedure, I have ideas but am open to suggestion. I know they
will have to include different load rates, different charge rates and
different temperature. Starting to sound like it could take some time but
might be worth it to the community.



> =

> Battery manufacturers that would like to be a part of these
> tests can
> contact me here at [email protected]
> . I am most interested in
> Thunder Sky, Sky Energy and High Power but I will test any
> battery that any
> manufacturer deems appropriate for the EV market.
> =

> Results will be shown on my webpage and excel spread sheets
> will be
> available for download. =

> =

> This is no joke, I will do this for the EV community and
> myself of course.
> =

> Mark Grasser
> =

> =

> =

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]
> On Behalf
> Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:37 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where to buy Sky Energy?
> =

> From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
> > I am ready to buy my first four batteries. These will
> be for test...
> > Suggestions as to where to buy and where not to
> buy...
> =

> If it's for a test, why not buy from several different
> vendors? It's your
> chance to play "Consumer's Reports" and see which vendors
> are good or bad.
> =

> In this same vein, wouldn't it be great if someone did buy
> a few of each
> battery, and tested them, and published the results? I've
> tried to do it,
> but batteries are so expensive that it can't be done as a
> hobby. So I've
> wound up testing batteries for clients. Since they bought
> the batteries and
> paid for the testing, they "own" the data and I can't share
> it.
> =

> To make it work, you'd need a club or coop, where everyone
> chips in.
> =

> --
> Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the
> one who is
> doing it. -- Chinese proverb
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> =

> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =

> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =



=


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Battery testing (was Re: Where to buy Sky Energy?)

=


>I hope I didn't come across as a jerk...
Not now anymore. :)
Mark


- Steve


> > I think the manufacturers should
> each send me a free 100
> > amp battery. =

> =

> (100 amp-hour battery?)
> =

> Wouldn't that insure that the manufacture sent you a
> pre-tested battery, possibly hand selected to exceed data
> sheet ratings? Seems to me the only way to ensure you
> get a 'typical' battery is to buy it yourself without
> letting anyone know it's a battery for testing.
> =

> > I will
> > do a clean non biased test, multiple times, multiple
> > batteries and use the
> > best test of each type to publish.
> =

> Why would you only publish the best test, and not all your
> data? So more manufactures would be willing to send
> you free batteries?
> =

> What equipment do you have? What testing procedure
> would you use? What would you measure and how?
> Do you have already published results from previous tests?
> =

> > =

> > Battery manufacturers that would like to be a part of
> these
> > tests can
> > contact me here at [email protected]
> > . I am most interested in
> > Thunder Sky, Sky Energy and High Power but I will test
> any
> > battery that any
> > manufacturer deems appropriate for the EV market.
> > =

> > Results will be shown on my webpage and excel spread
> sheets
> > will be
> > available for download. =

> > =

> > This is no joke, I will do this for the EV community
> and
> > myself of course.
> > =

> > Mark Grasser
> > =

> > =

> > =

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected]
> > [mailto:[email protected]]
> > On Behalf
> > Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:37 AM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Where to buy Sky Energy?
> > =

> > From: Mark Grasser <[email protected]>
> > > I am ready to buy my first four batteries. These
> will
> > be for test...
> > > Suggestions as to where to buy and where not to
> > buy...
> > =

> > If it's for a test, why not buy from several
> different
> > vendors? It's your
> > chance to play "Consumer's Reports" and see which
> vendors
> > are good or bad.
> > =

> > In this same vein, wouldn't it be great if someone did
> buy
> > a few of each
> > battery, and tested them, and published the results?
> I've
> > tried to do it,
> > but batteries are so expensive that it can't be done
> as a
> > hobby. So I've
> > wound up testing batteries for clients. Since they
> bought
> > the batteries and
> > paid for the testing, they "own" the data and I can't
> share
> > it.
> > =

> > To make it work, you'd need a club or coop, where
> everyone
> > chips in.
> > =

> > --
> > Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt
> the
> > one who is
> > doing it. -- Chinese proverb
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart-at-earthlink.net
> > =

> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > =

> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> > only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected]
> only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> =



=


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Battery testing (was Re: Where to buy Sky Energy?)

That's what I think would happen. You have to do it like Consumer's
Union does it. Have an anonymous buyer purchase them, the same as any
other customer. Test it, and report how it works.

Lee,
I have been in the middle of the "china syndrome" for a long time. Grant it
your way would show if there are bad ones to be bought but is it a fair
comparison of the GOOD product that they might be producing, especially if
there is a warranty structure to replace the bad one (I know about TS and
you are right, hence there should be a warranty.....

Anyway, my feeling is that I want to test the cream of the crop to see the
true potential of each product.

Mark Grasser

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
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