DIY Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Chuck,
I have brought this issue up several times over the last 4 or 5 years at
various planning meeting for charging station programs. And yet all of the
sales people and engineers seem to think that the public wants the cord to
be supplied at the charger. I have been driving a variety of electrics, to
date, I have found very few people who drive an electric vehicle without a
cord on board to facilitate the unexpected charge. It would be so much
smarter to supply a replaceable cord with the vehicle and have a plug (or
socket) at the station to plug into, rather than showing up at the station
and finding the attached cord in a useless condition (or missing altogether
via copper thief).
Just my opinion as a seasoned electrician and EV driver.

Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
>
> Jack Murray wrote:
> > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
>
> Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> EV scene.
> >
> > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> >
> > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> >
> > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> lots I've seen..
> > This would allow them to be very close together.
>
> And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> >
> > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > Google didn't fund that idea.. :(
> >
> > Jack Murray
> [snip]
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101007/ca75bacd/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On 7 Oct 2010 at 17:42, Thos True wrote:

> And yet all of the sales people and engineers seem to think that the
> public wants the cord to be supplied at the charger.

The users who took part in the Alameda Station Car pilot project about a
dozen years ago drove Pivco Citybees (an early Think City prototype) with
retractable charging cords on reels built into the EVs. From what I read at
the time, they seemed to like them pretty well.

It wasn't just the charging, of course, but some of the users literally
cried when the project ended and they had to give up their EVs.

As usual :-(, archive.org is overloaded right now - but if you're interested
and patient, you may be able to find something about the project on the old
stncar.com website which I think is still archived there.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

The NEC has an interesting twist when there is no cord and there is
an on-board charger that can plug into a normal outlet. The reality
of the situation is that the NEC is forbidden to regulate anything
beyond the receptacle attached to the physical building structure.
(UL does that, kind of.) The NEC has no authority to tell you what
can, or cannot, be plugged into a receptacle.

Thus, you can put in an ordinary receptacle, and not specify what is
to be plugged into it, because, in reality, you are not required to do so.

Article 625 _tries_ to regulate outside the receptacle. This is
beyond the authority of the NEC. Once the charger moves off the wall
and on-board the EV, the NEC is out of the loop. They don't want to
be, but they are.

Bill D.

At 06:42 PM 10/7/2010, you wrote:
>Chuck,
>I have brought this issue up several times over the last 4 or 5 years at
>various planning meeting for charging station programs. And yet all of the
>sales people and engineers seem to think that the public wants the cord to
>be supplied at the charger. I have been driving a variety of electrics, to
>date, I have found very few people who drive an electric vehicle without a
>cord on board to facilitate the unexpected charge. It would be so much
>smarter to supply a replaceable cord with the vehicle and have a plug (or
>socket) at the station to plug into, rather than showing up at the station
>and finding the attached cord in a useless condition (or missing altogether
>via copper thief).
>Just my opinion as a seasoned electrician and EV driver.
>
>
Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> > it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> > numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> > personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> > issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> > to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> > pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
> >
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> > > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
> >
> > Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> > EV scene.
> > >
> > > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> > >
> > > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> > >
> > > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> > lots I've seen..
> > > This would allow them to be very close together.
> >
> > And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> > tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> > >
> > > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> > travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > > Google didn't fund that idea.. :(
> > >
> > > Jack Murray
> > [snip]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
>merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
>-------------- next part --------------
>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>URL:
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101007/ca75bacd/attachment.html
>
>_______________________________________________
>| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Bill Dube wrote:
> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot,
> be plugged into a receptacle.

A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
(article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.

> UL does that, kind of.

Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard to
make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no one
(NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.

I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

QnV0IHRoZSBFbGVjdHJpYyBVdGlsaXRpZXMgYXJlIHNjYXJlZCAqKioqbGVzcyBvZiB0aGUgaW1w
YWN0IG9mIGFsbAp0aG9zZSBFVnMgcGx1Z2dpbmcgaW4gYXQgb25jZS4gIFRoZXkgZG9uJ3Qgc2Vl
bSB0byBiZSBjb25jZXJuZWQgYWJvdXQKc2FmZXR5IHNvIG11Y2ggYXMgbG9hZC4gIEV2ZXJ5dGhp
bmcgdGhleSBhcmUgZG9pbmcgc2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgb24gdGhhdAp0aGVtZSBhbmQgc2V2ZXJhbCBo
YXZlIGh1Z2UgZ3JhbnRzIHRvIHdvcmsgb24gInNtYXJ0IGdyaWQiCmFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBzbyB0
aGF0IHRoZXkgY2FuIHByb3RlY3QgdGhlaXIgc3lzdGVtcyBmcm9tIGFsbCB0aGlzCmltcGFjdC4g
IEkga2VlcCB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZGVjaWRlIHdoZXRoZXIgSSBhbSBlbmNvdXJhZ2VkIHRoYXQgdGhl
eQp0aGluayB0aGF0IEVWcyB3aWxsIGJlIGEgc3VjY2VzcyB0aGlzIHRpbWUgYXJvdW5kIG9yIGZy
dXN0cmF0ZWQgYnkgaG93CmNvbXBsZXggKGFuZCBpbmR1c3RyeSBpbnN1bGFyKSB0aGlzIGlzIGFs
bCBtYWtpbmcgb3VyIGNoYXJnaW5nIGZ1dHVyZS4KCi9BYXJvbiBDaG9hdGUKUkVWT0xUIEVsZWN0
cmljIFZlaGljbGVzCgoKCk9uIEZyaSwgT2N0IDgsIDIwMTAgYXQgMTE6MjIgQU0sIExlZSBIYXJ0
IDxsZWVhaGFydEBlYXJ0aGxpbmsubmV0PiB3cm90ZToKPiBCaWxsIER1YmUgd3JvdGU6Cj4+IC4u
LlRoZSBORUMgaGFzIG5vIGF1dGhvcml0eSB0byB0ZWxsIHlvdSB3aGF0IGNhbiwgb3IgY2Fubm90
LAo+PiBiZSBwbHVnZ2VkIGludG8gYSDCoHJlY2VwdGFjbGUuCj4KPiBBIGdvb2Qgc3VtbWFyeSwg
QmlsbC4gSW4gZmFjdCwgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHBhZ2Ugb2YgdGhlIE5FQyBzdGFuZGFyZHMKPiAoYXJ0
aWNsZSA5MC0yKSBkZWZpbmVzIHRoZWlyICJzY29wZSIgdG8gZXhjbHVkZSBhbGwgZm9ybXMgb2Yg
dmVoaWNsZXMuCj4gQXJ0aWNsZSA2MjUgKEVsZWN0cmljIFZlaGljbGUgQ2hhcmdpbmcpIGhhZCB0
byBkbyBzb21lIHNlcmlvdXMKPiBoYW5kd2F2aW5nIGFuZCBvYmZ1c2NhdGlvbiB0byB3b3JrIGFy
b3VuZCB0aGlzLgo+Cj4gwqA+IFVMIGRvZXMgdGhhdCwga2luZCBvZi4KPgo+IEFjdHVhbGx5LCBV
TCBoYXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgcHJvYmxlbS4gVGhleSBoYXZlIG5vIGF1dGhvcml0eSB0byByZWd1bGF0
ZQo+IGFueXRoaW5nIGluIHZlaGljbGVzLCBlaXRoZXIuIFRoZSBhdXRvIGluZHVzdHJ5IGZvdWdo
dCBsb25nIGFuZCBoYXJkIHRvCj4gbWFrZSAqc3VyZSogdGhleSBjYW4gd3JpdGUgdGhlaXIgb3du
IHN0YW5kYXJkcyAoU0FFKSwgYW5kIHRoYXQgbm8gb25lCj4gKE5FQywgVUwpIGNhbiB0ZWxsIHRo
ZW0gd2hhdCB0byBkbyBpbiBhIHZlaGljbGUuCj4KPiBJJ2QgcmF0aGVyIHNlZSBFViBjaGFyZ2lu
ZyBzdGFuZGFyZHMgcHV0IHRoZSBjaGFyZ2VyIGluIHRoZSBFViwgd2l0aCBhCj4gY29yZCB0aGF0
IHBsdWdzIGludG8gc29tZSBzdGFuZGFyZCBBQyBvdXRsZXQuIFRoZW4gdGhlICJjaGFyZ2luZwo+
IHN0YXRpb25zIiBhcmUgbm90aGluZyBidXQgb3JkaW5hcnkgQUMgb3V0bGV0cywgd2l0aCBHRkNJ
IHByb3RlY3RvcnMsCj4gY2lyY3VpdCBicmVha2VycywgYW5kIHBlcmhhcHMgbWV0ZXJpbmcgYW5k
IGJpbGxpbmcgZXF1aXBtZW50IGlmIHRoZQo+IGFtb3VudCBvZiBlbGVjdHJpY2l0eSB1c2VkIGJ5
IEVWcyBiZWNvbWVzIGVub3VnaCB0byBib3RoZXIgY2hhcmdpbmcgZm9yLgo+IC0tCj4gTGVlIEEu
IEhhcnQgwqAgwqAgwqAgwqAgwqAgwqAgfCBSaW5nIHRoZSBiZWxscyB0aGF0IHN0aWxsIGNhbiBy
aW5nCj4gODE0IDh0aCBBdmUgTiDCoCDCoCDCoCDCoCDCoCB8IEZvcmdldCB0aGUgcGVyZmVjdCBv
ZmZlcmluZwo+IFNhcnRlbGwgTU4gNTYzNzcgwqAgwqAgwqAgwqB8IFRoZXJlIGlzIGEgY3JhY2sg
aW4gZXZlcnl0aGluZwo+IGxlZWFoYXJ0IGVhcnRobGluay5uZXQgwqB8IFRoYXQncyBob3cgdGhl
IGxpZ2h0IGdldHMgaW4gLS0gTGVvbmFyZCBDb2hlbgo+Cj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f
X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPiB8IFJFUExZSU5HOiBhZGRyZXNzIHlvdXIgbWVz
c2FnZSB0byBldkBsaXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdSBvbmx5Lgo+IHwgTXVsdGlwbGUtYWRkcmVzcyBvciBD
Q2VkIG1lc3NhZ2VzIG1heSBiZSByZWplY3RlZC4KPiB8IFVOU1VCU0NSSUJFOiBodHRwOi8vd3d3
LmV2ZGwub3JnL2hlbHAvaW5kZXguaHRtbCN1c3ViCj4gfCBPVEhFUiBIRUxQOiBodHRwOi8vZXZk
bC5vcmcvaGVscC8KPiB8IE9QVElPTlM6IGh0dHA6Ly9saXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xp
c3RpbmZvL2V2Cj4KCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f
X19fCnwgUkVQTFlJTkc6IGFkZHJlc3MgeW91ciBtZXNzYWdlIHRvIGV2QGxpc3RzLnNqc3UuZWR1
IG9ubHkuCnwgTXVsdGlwbGUtYWRkcmVzcyBvciBDQ2VkIG1lc3NhZ2VzIG1heSBiZSByZWplY3Rl
ZC4KfCBVTlNVQlNDUklCRTogaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ldmRsLm9yZy9oZWxwL2luZGV4Lmh0bWwjdXN1
Ygp8IE9USEVSIEhFTFA6IGh0dHA6Ly9ldmRsLm9yZy9oZWxwLwp8IE9QVElPTlM6IGh0dHA6Ly9s
aXN0cy5zanN1LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2V2Cg==
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
grid cycles between excess capacity at night and under capacity during
the day. Nightly EV charging will allow the utilities to be more
profitable (more revenue with little additional expense) and they can
use the profits to upgrade infrastructure. This will be a long slow
process. The scare tactics are positioning to try and justify rate
hikes.

This is just business as usual. Trying to figure out how to make the
most money out of a new market.

DAC

Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all
> those EVs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about
> safety so much as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that
> theme and several have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
> applications so that they can protect their systems from all this
> impact. I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they
> think that EVs will be a success this time around or frustrated by how
> complex (and industry insular) this is all making our charging future.
>
> /Aaron Choate
> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Bill Dube wrote:
>>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot,
>>> be plugged into a receptacle.
>>
>> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
>> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
>> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
>> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>>
>> > UL does that, kind of.
>>
>> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
>> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard to
>> make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no one
>> (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>>
>> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
>> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
>> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
>> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
>> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

This does not jive with the PG&E presentation at
one of the EAAEV chapter meetings, which stated
that they *love* Evs, especially because of their
property to better balance the load and there may
be even rate *reductions* from improved efficiency
(read: flatter load between day/night) leading to
cost reduction per kWh (more kWh supplied without
much cost increase, at night) so they regarded
EVs plugging into their outlets as a win-win
situation...
Probably one of the chapter members has this
presentation available, contact me if you cannot
reach the Silicon Valley chapter.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Aaron Choate
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all those E=
Vs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about safety so mu=
ch as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that theme and severa=
l have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
applications so that they can protect their systems from all this impact. =
I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they think that EVs wi=
ll be a success this time around or frustrated by how complex (and industry=
insular) this is all making our charging future.

/Aaron Choate
REVOLT Electric Vehicles



Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill Dube wrote:
>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot, be =

>> plugged into a receptacle.
>
> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards =

> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious =

> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>
> > UL does that, kind of.
>
> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate =

> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard =

> to make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no =

> one (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>
> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a =

> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging =

> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors, =

> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the =

> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering Sartell M=
N 56377
> | There is a crack in everything leeahart earthlink.net | That's how =

> the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
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 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
reason you couldn't do the same with an EV. If you are home for the
evening, just plug it in and it will charge when appropriate. If you
need a charge sooner, pay a little more for more expensive
electricity.

Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah - I would imagine that the reaction will be different in
> different areas. To be more specific, I think our local utility (in
> Austin, TX) is scared of what will happen when all these happy EV
> commuters get home at 5-6pm, hop out of their cars and plug in to
> charge while at the same time cranking their AC up to high to get the
> interior of their homes to a livable temp. I think they also "get"
> the potential for balancing the load later in the evenings. They're
> just looking for a way to be able to shed the charging load during
> their peek periods which gets complicated fast. We aren't there yet,
> and likely won't be for several years, but I guess I am currently glad
> that they are at least looking at it. Check back later for my current
> frustration level... [grin]
>
> On the other hand, I've also noticed a wide array of
> responses/acceptance of homebuilt/converted vehicles vs. factory built
> EVs from the major utilities. I have seen some visibly cringe when I
> brought up the topic of ensuring support for homebuilt/converted EVs
> in standards efforts when at altCar events. ... not encouraging to say
> the least. Some of us will want to continue to tinker, even when the
> majors have product in the dealerships.
>
> /Aaron Choate
> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wro=
te:
>> This does not jive with the PG&E presentation at
>> one of the EAAEV chapter meetings, which stated
>> that they *love* Evs, especially because of their
>> property to better balance the load and there may
>> be even rate *reductions* from improved efficiency
>> (read: flatter load between day/night) leading to
>> cost reduction per kWh (more kWh supplied without
>> much cost increase, at night) so they regarded
>> EVs plugging into their outlets as a win-win
>> situation...
>> Probably one of the chapter members has this
>> presentation available, contact me if you cannot
>> reach the Silicon Valley chapter.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Be=
half Of Aaron Choate
>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:02 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless chargi=
ng)
>>
>> But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all thos=
e EVs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about safety =
so much as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that theme and=
several have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
>> applications so that they can protect their systems from all this impact=
. I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they think that E=
Vs will be a success this time around or frustrated by how complex (and ind=
ustry insular) this is all making our charging future.
>>
>> /Aaron Choate
>> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Bill Dube wrote:
>>>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot, be
>>>> plugged into a receptacle.
>>>
>>> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
>>> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
>>> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
>>> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>>>
>>> > UL does that, kind of.
>>>
>>> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
>>> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard
>>> to make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no
>>> one (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>>>
>>> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
>>> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
>>> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
>>> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
>>> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering Sartell=
MN 56377
>>> | There is a crack in everything leeahart earthlink.net | That's how
>>> the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

dave cover wrote:
> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power

Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
later.

My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
Electric, does either.

I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
start selling Leafs, maybe in January.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

The EVSE that you will use with the leaf, as well as the old ones in
California 15 years ago have the ability to be programed. You tell it
you want to start charging at midnight, for example. You get home,
plug in and forget it. Then at midnight, or whenever you program it
for, it will come on and dutifully charge you up without any further
action on your part. Need a charge now for an evening excursion? Hit a
button and start charging immediately. This was all figured out years
ago, but only the west coasters were able to take advantage of it.

Dave

On 10/8/10, Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
dave cover wrote:
>> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
>> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
>> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
>
> Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
> started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
> right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
> the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
> later.
>
> My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
> time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
> Electric, does either.
>
> I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
> off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
> mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
> start selling Leafs, maybe in January.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>

--
Sent from my mobile device

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

I'd rather have control of it myself (rather than leaving it up to the
electric company), however finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
have a 15A max load...

This extends to other high-electricity usage items as well:
Dishswashers, my washer has a time delay, but my dryer (which uses more
electricity) doesn't!

Really what I want is an intelligent charging system that can sense the
state of charge in your pack, knows the current market rate and the most
likely timeperiod (historically) for electricity to be the cheapest and
kicks up the amperage during that time period: We use mainly
coal/nuclear in Illinois, so if the cost of electricity is greater than
10 cents/KWH, don't charge (unless the "do it now" button is pressed),
if it's 6-8 cents, slow charge and if it's under 3-4 cents... suck amps!

While rare, if the real-market rate is 1-4 cents a kilowatt hour in the
middle of the day it means there's light demand on the grid and charging
during the day isn't going to hurt anything. We've had prices go a
penny or two negative for an hour during the night during high travel
holiday weekends like July 4th.

This of course all goes away with localized electricity production. At
one point I heard a stat that the average home in Southern California,
if covered completely in solar could meet the power demands of not only
that house but 8 others (again, sorry no citation). I do recall reading
this stat just before the rolling blackouts caused by Enron's economic
manipulation of taking power plants offline for "maintenance" during
peak load.

Local solar production especially makes sense when you realize that
cooling is the biggest load on the grid, and that the sun is what makes
things hot. So when the sun is pounding down, the A/C is on and the
solar cells are generating at their peak -- the usage curve actually
trails peak solar curve by an hour or two.

Unless of course you live in an area like the MidWest (Central Illinois)
where it's the HUMIDITY along with the heat that kills you in the
summertime and it doesn't let up when the sun goes down.

Oh yes, and you want to be paid green generating rates on your net
metering...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless
charging)

dave cover wrote:
> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power

Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
later.

My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
Electric, does either.

I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
start selling Leafs, maybe in January.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On 8 Oct 2010 at 6:38, joe wrote:

> manufacturers are trying to get the code to favor their equipment,
> rather than having their equipment meet safety requirements that make
> sense.

That's exactly what Hughes did with the inductive paddle system, no?

If I'm not mistaken, the NEC is administered by the NFPA (National Fire
Protection Association) - an insurance trade group. One would expect them
to be most concerned with the insurance industry's costs and profitability,
not that of the electrical suppliers. But with many such organizations,
there are some "back doors" through which little green pieces of paper
flutter from time to time. ;-)

Ah well, I guess this isn't really the place to discuss such matters. And
the reality is, other than our shot at some new opportunity charging that
goes beyond what we've used for years, this issue mostly affects EV
manufacturers. If you're building your own EV as a hobbyist, you build it
to meet as much code as you think applies and is practical, and you charge
it in whatever way you see fit (one hopes, in a safe manner).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

dave cover wrote:
> Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
> water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
> during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
> reason you couldn't do the same with an EV. If you are home for the
> evening, just plug it in and it will charge when appropriate. If you
> need a charge sooner, pay a little more for more expensive
> electricity.

My local utility has this, too. It's called TOU (Time of Use) metering.
Unfortunately, they have rigged the rates to discourage its use in all
but the most extreme cases.

They give you a small reduction in your off-peak rate, but a huge
increase in your on-peak rate. The difference is so large that you'd
need to have 3/4th of your total power usage off-peak to come out ahead.

They also require separate wiring for the off-peak and normal loads, and
you're not allowed to move a particular load back and forth between them.

The TOU rate is really only intended for something like street lights,
or a factory that runs some energy-intensive process only at night.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101009/3297aa56/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected].xxx.edu [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101009/3297aa56/attac
hment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On another forum they suggest using a standard timer to control a
"contactor" and those can be BIG... The application was turning on/off a
Electric range (220V 50A) in a dorm kitchen....

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:48 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL:
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101009/3297aa56/attac
hment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
70 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

I have always felt that even if it is only an outlet and the EV had the cord
like RVers do they should be in a secured location or in plain clear sight
of a cashier or parking attendant. 24/7.

The hose of a gas pump does not have large copper conductors in it worth
several dollars.
Perhaps that is why they are not stolen. Don't leave an aluminum ladder
outside, those disappear quickly.

The J1772 charging station manufacturers need to hide the 20 ft. cable. in a
locked compartment., and considering the price they charge the cable could
be built with a strong wire mesh braided jacket inside the outermost rubbery
layer so a knife won't cut it! something like "Steel belted" tire
construction.

Regards,
Dennis Miles
==========================================================
Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
>
> Jack Murray wrote:
> > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
>
> Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> EV scene.
> >
> > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> >
> > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> >
> > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> lots I've seen..
> > This would allow them to be very close together.
>
> And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> >
> > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > Google didn't fund that idea.. :(
> >
> > Jack Murray
> [snip]
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/private/ev/attachments/20101009/d6240faf/attachment.html
_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top