[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Chuck,
I have brought this issue up several times over the last 4 or 5 years at
various planning meeting for charging station programs. And yet all of the
sales people and engineers seem to think that the public wants the cord to
be supplied at the charger. I have been driving a variety of electrics, to
date, I have found very few people who drive an electric vehicle without a
cord on board to facilitate the unexpected charge. It would be so much
smarter to supply a replaceable cord with the vehicle and have a plug (or
socket) at the station to plug into, rather than showing up at the station
and finding the attached cord in a useless condition (or missing altogether
via copper thief).
Just my opinion as a seasoned electrician and EV driver.

Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
>
> Jack Murray wrote:
> > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
>
> Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> EV scene.
> >
> > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> >
> > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> >
> > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> lots I've seen..
> > This would allow them to be very close together.
>
> And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> >
> > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > Google didn't fund that idea..
> >
> > Jack Murray
> [snip]
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On 7 Oct 2010 at 17:42, Thos True wrote:

> And yet all of the sales people and engineers seem to think that the
> public wants the cord to be supplied at the charger.

The users who took part in the Alameda Station Car pilot project about a
dozen years ago drove Pivco Citybees (an early Think City prototype) with
retractable charging cords on reels built into the EVs. From what I read at
the time, they seemed to like them pretty well.

It wasn't just the charging, of course, but some of the users literally
cried when the project ended and they had to give up their EVs.

As usual :-(, archive.org is overloaded right now - but if you're interested
and patient, you may be able to find something about the project on the old
stncar.com website which I think is still archived there.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

The NEC has an interesting twist when there is no cord and there is
an on-board charger that can plug into a normal outlet. The reality
of the situation is that the NEC is forbidden to regulate anything
beyond the receptacle attached to the physical building structure.
(UL does that, kind of.) The NEC has no authority to tell you what
can, or cannot, be plugged into a receptacle.

Thus, you can put in an ordinary receptacle, and not specify what is
to be plugged into it, because, in reality, you are not required to do so.

Article 625 _tries_ to regulate outside the receptacle. This is
beyond the authority of the NEC. Once the charger moves off the wall
and on-board the EV, the NEC is out of the loop. They don't want to
be, but they are.

Bill D.

At 06:42 PM 10/7/2010, you wrote:
>Chuck,
>I have brought this issue up several times over the last 4 or 5 years at
>various planning meeting for charging station programs. And yet all of the
>sales people and engineers seem to think that the public wants the cord to
>be supplied at the charger. I have been driving a variety of electrics, to
>date, I have found very few people who drive an electric vehicle without a
>cord on board to facilitate the unexpected charge. It would be so much
>smarter to supply a replaceable cord with the vehicle and have a plug (or
>socket) at the station to plug into, rather than showing up at the station
>and finding the attached cord in a useless condition (or missing altogether
>via copper thief).
>Just my opinion as a seasoned electrician and EV driver.
>
>

Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> > it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> > numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> > personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> > issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> > to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> > pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
> >
> > Jack Murray wrote:
> > > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
> >
> > Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> > EV scene.
> > >
> > > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> > >
> > > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> > >
> > > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> > lots I've seen..
> > > This would allow them to be very close together.
> >
> > And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> > tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> > >
> > > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> > travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > > Google didn't fund that idea..
> > >
> > > Jack Murray
> > [snip]
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
>--
>Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
>merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Bill Dube wrote:
> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot,
> be plugged into a receptacle.

A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
(article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.

> UL does that, kind of.

Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard to
make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no one
(NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.

I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
grid cycles between excess capacity at night and under capacity during
the day. Nightly EV charging will allow the utilities to be more
profitable (more revenue with little additional expense) and they can
use the profits to upgrade infrastructure. This will be a long slow
process. The scare tactics are positioning to try and justify rate
hikes.

This is just business as usual. Trying to figure out how to make the
most money out of a new market.

DAC

Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all
> those EVs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about
> safety so much as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that
> theme and several have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
> applications so that they can protect their systems from all this
> impact. I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they
> think that EVs will be a success this time around or frustrated by how
> complex (and industry insular) this is all making our charging future.
>
> /Aaron Choate
> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Bill Dube wrote:
>>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot,
>>> be plugged into a receptacle.
>>
>> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
>> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
>> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
>> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>>
>> > UL does that, kind of.
>>
>> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
>> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard to
>> make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no one
>> (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>>
>> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
>> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
>> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
>> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
>> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
>> Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
>> leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
>> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
>> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
>> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
>> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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>



-- =

http://www.evalbum.com/2149

_______________________________________________
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

This does not jive with the PG&E presentation at
one of the EAAEV chapter meetings, which stated
that they *love* Evs, especially because of their
property to better balance the load and there may
be even rate *reductions* from improved efficiency
(read: flatter load between day/night) leading to
cost reduction per kWh (more kWh supplied without
much cost increase, at night) so they regarded
EVs plugging into their outlets as a win-win
situation...
Probably one of the chapter members has this
presentation available, contact me if you cannot
reach the Silicon Valley chapter.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behal=
f Of Aaron Choate
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:02 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all those E=
Vs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about safety so mu=
ch as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that theme and severa=
l have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
applications so that they can protect their systems from all this impact. =
I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they think that EVs wi=
ll be a success this time around or frustrated by how complex (and industry=
insular) this is all making our charging future.

/Aaron Choate
REVOLT Electric Vehicles

Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bill Dube wrote:
>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot, be =

>> plugged into a receptacle.
>
> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards =

> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious =

> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>
> > UL does that, kind of.
>
> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate =

> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard =

> to make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no =

> one (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>
> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a =

> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging =

> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors, =

> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the =

> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
> --
> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering Sartell M=
N 56377
> | There is a crack in everything leeahart earthlink.net | That's how =

> the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
reason you couldn't do the same with an EV. If you are home for the
evening, just plug it in and it will charge when appropriate. If you
need a charge sooner, pay a little more for more expensive
electricity.

Aaron Choate <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah - I would imagine that the reaction will be different in
> different areas. To be more specific, I think our local utility (in
> Austin, TX) is scared of what will happen when all these happy EV
> commuters get home at 5-6pm, hop out of their cars and plug in to
> charge while at the same time cranking their AC up to high to get the
> interior of their homes to a livable temp. I think they also "get"
> the potential for balancing the load later in the evenings. They're
> just looking for a way to be able to shed the charging load during
> their peek periods which gets complicated fast. We aren't there yet,
> and likely won't be for several years, but I guess I am currently glad
> that they are at least looking at it. Check back later for my current
> frustration level... [grin]
>
> On the other hand, I've also noticed a wide array of
> responses/acceptance of homebuilt/converted vehicles vs. factory built
> EVs from the major utilities. I have seen some visibly cringe when I
> brought up the topic of ensuring support for homebuilt/converted EVs
> in standards efforts when at altCar events. ... not encouraging to say
> the least. Some of us will want to continue to tinker, even when the
> majors have product in the dealerships.
>
> /Aaron Choate
> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>
> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Cor van de Water <[email protected]> wro=
te:
>> This does not jive with the PG&E presentation at
>> one of the EAAEV chapter meetings, which stated
>> that they *love* Evs, especially because of their
>> property to better balance the load and there may
>> be even rate *reductions* from improved efficiency
>> (read: flatter load between day/night) leading to
>> cost reduction per kWh (more kWh supplied without
>> much cost increase, at night) so they regarded
>> EVs plugging into their outlets as a win-win
>> situation...
>> Probably one of the chapter members has this
>> presentation available, contact me if you cannot
>> reach the Silicon Valley chapter.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Director HW & Systems Architecture Group
>> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>> Email: [email protected] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [email protected]
>> Tel: +1 408 383 7626 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 XoIP: +31877841130
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Be=
half Of Aaron Choate
>> Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 10:02 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless chargi=
ng)
>>
>> But the Electric Utilities are scared ****less of the impact of all thos=
e EVs plugging in at once. They don't seem to be concerned about safety =
so much as load. Everything they are doing seems to be on that theme and=
several have huge grants to work on "smart grid"
>> applications so that they can protect their systems from all this impact=
. I keep trying to decide whether I am encouraged that they think that E=
Vs will be a success this time around or frustrated by how complex (and ind=
ustry insular) this is all making our charging future.
>>
>> /Aaron Choate
>> REVOLT Electric Vehicles
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Lee Hart <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Bill Dube wrote:
>>>> ...The NEC has no authority to tell you what can, or cannot, be
>>>> plugged into a receptacle.
>>>
>>> A good summary, Bill. In fact, the first page of the NEC standards
>>> (article 90-2) defines their "scope" to exclude all forms of vehicles.
>>> Article 625 (Electric Vehicle Charging) had to do some serious
>>> handwaving and obfuscation to work around this.
>>>
>>> > UL does that, kind of.
>>>
>>> Actually, UL has the same problem. They have no authority to regulate
>>> anything in vehicles, either. The auto industry fought long and hard
>>> to make *sure* they can write their own standards (SAE), and that no
>>> one (NEC, UL) can tell them what to do in a vehicle.
>>>
>>> I'd rather see EV charging standards put the charger in the EV, with a
>>> cord that plugs into some standard AC outlet. Then the "charging
>>> stations" are nothing but ordinary AC outlets, with GFCI protectors,
>>> circuit breakers, and perhaps metering and billing equipment if the
>>> amount of electricity used by EVs becomes enough to bother charging for.
>>> --
>>> Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
>>> 814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering Sartell=
MN 56377
>>> | There is a crack in everything leeahart earthlink.net | That's how
>>> the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
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>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>



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Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

dave cover wrote:
> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power

Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
later.

My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
Electric, does either.

I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
start selling Leafs, maybe in January.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes

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Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

The EVSE that you will use with the leaf, as well as the old ones in
California 15 years ago have the ability to be programed. You tell it
you want to start charging at midnight, for example. You get home,
plug in and forget it. Then at midnight, or whenever you program it
for, it will come on and dutifully charge you up without any further
action on your part. Need a charge now for an evening excursion? Hit a
button and start charging immediately. This was all figured out years
ago, but only the west coasters were able to take advantage of it.

Dave

On 10/8/10, Willie McKemie <[email protected]> wrote:
>

dave cover wrote:
>> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
>> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
>> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power
>
> Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
> started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
> right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
> the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
> later.
>
> My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
> time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
> Electric, does either.
>
> I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
> off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
> mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
> start selling Leafs, maybe in January.
>
> --
> Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
> http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
> Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

--
Sent from my mobile device

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

I'd rather have control of it myself (rather than leaving it up to the
electric company), however finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
have a 15A max load...

This extends to other high-electricity usage items as well:
Dishswashers, my washer has a time delay, but my dryer (which uses more
electricity) doesn't!

Really what I want is an intelligent charging system that can sense the
state of charge in your pack, knows the current market rate and the most
likely timeperiod (historically) for electricity to be the cheapest and
kicks up the amperage during that time period: We use mainly
coal/nuclear in Illinois, so if the cost of electricity is greater than
10 cents/KWH, don't charge (unless the "do it now" button is pressed),
if it's 6-8 cents, slow charge and if it's under 3-4 cents... suck amps!

While rare, if the real-market rate is 1-4 cents a kilowatt hour in the
middle of the day it means there's light demand on the grid and charging
during the day isn't going to hurt anything. We've had prices go a
penny or two negative for an hour during the night during high travel
holiday weekends like July 4th.

This of course all goes away with localized electricity production. At
one point I heard a stat that the average home in Southern California,
if covered completely in solar could meet the power demands of not only
that house but 8 others (again, sorry no citation). I do recall reading
this stat just before the rolling blackouts caused by Enron's economic
manipulation of taking power plants offline for "maintenance" during
peak load.

Local solar production especially makes sense when you realize that
cooling is the biggest load on the grid, and that the sun is what makes
things hot. So when the sun is pounding down, the A/C is on and the
solar cells are generating at their peak -- the usage curve actually
trails peak solar curve by an hour or two.

Unless of course you live in an area like the MidWest (Central Illinois)
where it's the HUMIDITY along with the heat that kills you in the
summertime and it doesn't let up when the sun goes down.

Oh yes, and you want to be paid green generating rates on your net
metering...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Willie McKemie
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2010 3:44 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless
charging)

dave cover wrote:
> It's just FUD. First, EVs aren't going to reproduce likes rabbits. It
> will be a long and slow process. Second, most charging will probably
> be at night and that's when the grid has capacity. Remember, the power

Well.... the utilities need to figure out how to get the charging
started rather late in the evening, maybe 9pm-10pm. I think Aaron is
right in that Joe EVDriver will want to come home at 5pm-6pm and start
the charger so he doesn't have the opportunity to forget to do it
later.

My utility, Bluebonnet Electric Coop in central Texas, does not have
time of day varying rates and I don't believe Aaron's, City of Austin
Electric, does either.

I'm thinking of approaching my utility and offering to charge during
off-peak times if they will provide me some sort of convenient
mechanism to do so. We hope to become a two EV family as soon as they
start selling Leafs, maybe in January.

--
Willie, ONWARD! Through the fog!
http://counter.li.org Linux registered user #228836 since 1995
Debian3.1/GNU/Linux system uptime 26 days 11 hours 40 minutes

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On 8 Oct 2010 at 6:38, joe wrote:

> manufacturers are trying to get the code to favor their equipment,
> rather than having their equipment meet safety requirements that make
> sense.

That's exactly what Hughes did with the inductive paddle system, no?

If I'm not mistaken, the NEC is administered by the NFPA (National Fire
Protection Association) - an insurance trade group. One would expect them
to be most concerned with the insurance industry's costs and profitability,
not that of the electrical suppliers. But with many such organizations,
there are some "back doors" through which little green pieces of paper
flutter from time to time. ;-)

Ah well, I guess this isn't really the place to discuss such matters. And
the reality is, other than our shot at some new opportunity charging that
goes beyond what we've used for years, this issue mostly affects EV
manufacturers. If you're building your own EV as a hobbyist, you build it
to meet as much code as you think applies and is practical, and you charge
it in whatever way you see fit (one hopes, in a safe manner).

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

dave cover wrote:
> Twenty years ago, when I was living in Vermont, my heater and hot
> water heater were hooked up to a system that would only turn them on
> during certain hours. This avoided the problem with peak loads. No
> reason you couldn't do the same with an EV. If you are home for the
> evening, just plug it in and it will charge when appropriate. If you
> need a charge sooner, pay a little more for more expensive
> electricity.

My local utility has this, too. It's called TOU (Time of Use) metering.
Unfortunately, they have rigged the rates to discourage its use in all
but the most extreme cases.

They give you a small reduction in your off-peak rate, but a huge
increase in your on-peak rate. The difference is so large that you'd
need to have 3/4th of your total power usage off-peak to come out ahead.

They also require separate wiring for the off-peak and normal loads, and
you're not allowed to move a particular load back and forth between them.

The TOU rate is really only intended for something like street lights,
or a factory that runs some energy-intensive process only at night.

--
Lee A. Hart | Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave N | Forget the perfect offering
Sartell MN 56377 | There is a crack in everything
leeahart earthlink.net | That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen

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Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

On another forum they suggest using a standard timer to control a
"contactor" and those can be BIG... The application was turning on/off a
Electric range (220V 50A) in a dorm kitchen....

Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Bob Sisson
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 10:48 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

Also try TeKsupply as they have a LOT of high power timers...

www.teksupply.com

One for "up to 2Hp" and 277 volts is at

http://www.teksupply.com/farm/supplies/prod1;;pg109071_109074.html


Bob Sisson
1993 Geo Metro Convertible Project
Gaithersburg MD

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Zeke Yewdall
Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 9:43 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Childress, Matthew <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>


finding a timer even for 120V/20A locally at
> the hardware store hasn't been easy -- most of them are the mechanical
> clocks that have to be on all the time or they lose their time, and they
> have a 15A max load...
>

Check online hydroponics stores... (or local ones if you are in CA, CO, or
MI?) They have a wide variety of 120vac and 240vac timers with battery run
clocks and all, depending on how fancy you get.

Z
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[EVDL List]

Re: [EVDL] Charging station vandalism (WAS: Re: Wireless charging)

I have always felt that even if it is only an outlet and the EV had the cord
like RVers do they should be in a secured location or in plain clear sight
of a cashier or parking attendant. 24/7.

The hose of a gas pump does not have large copper conductors in it worth
several dollars.
Perhaps that is why they are not stolen. Don't leave an aluminum ladder
outside, those disappear quickly.

The J1772 charging station manufacturers need to hide the 20 ft. cable. in a
locked compartment., and considering the price they charge the cable could
be built with a strong wire mesh braided jacket inside the outermost rubbery
layer so a knife won't cut it! something like "Steel belted" tire
construction.

Regards,
Dennis Miles
==========================================================

Chuck Hursch <[email protected]> wrote:

> This thread didn't seem to have much to say about part of what started
> it off - vandalism. When I was involved with evchargernews.com, I saw
> numerous reports of hacked up cords and smashed up charging stations. I
> personally came across paddles that had been smashed. So there's an
> issue there. The charging stations are left unattended, and people love
> to pick on EVs and the attendant paraphernalia; in contrast, most gas
> pumps are not - I rarely see vandalized gas pumps.
>
> Jack Murray wrote:
> > I think having to plug in a cord to charge is a huge PITA.
>
> Most people are in your corner, but I like plugging in. It's part of my
> EV scene.
> >
> > But I'm one who hates to clean my swimming pool, vacuum the carpet,
> > put the dishes away, or make my bed everyday.
> >
> > I hate going to the gas station too, a toxic waste dump experience,
> > but it's only once a week, not everyday (with current batteries)
> >
> > My idea was not to put it on the ground, but have it integrated
> > into the front bumper, and you drive UP to it, not OVER it.
> > Makes sense for a parking spot, not many pull-through garages or parking
> lots I've seen..
> > This would allow them to be very close together.
>
> And maybe robust enough so that they could not be vandalized. A big
> tough stump-like object that you could drive your front bumper up against.
> >
> > And if anyone remembers my EV Train approach, this bumper(s) would
> > also allow EVs to chain together magnetically and be charged as they
> travel the freeway in a train pulled by an EV locomotive.
> > Google didn't fund that idea..
> >
> > Jack Murray
> [snip]
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
Regards,
*Dennis Lee Miles* (Director) *E.V.T.I. inc*.
*www.E-V-T-I-Inc.COM <http://www.e-v-t-i-inc.com/> *(Adviser)*
EVTI-EVAEducation Chapter
*
Phone (863) 944 - 9913
Initial demand (computed by extrapolating the reservations for GM Volt and
Nissan Leaf,) shall exceed 200,000 vehicles in 2010 and 2011. However only
50,000 vehicles will be marketed, so a LARGE demand for Nice Newer
Conversions is predicted!
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