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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat

Hi Rick and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Rick Willoughby <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
subject: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat



Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT)

>I am seeking advice and experience on equipping an electric
>boat. I have attached an image.
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13418241/1t_Solar.jpg

Interesting boat design you have. Your EV numbers
also are in the ballpark. The reservations I have are more
seakeeping, tax problems than with the charging or EV drive.
As a a boat designer, builder of all types I'd
suggest you go to a Cat as your present version will
probably roll very badly in any seaway whether underway or
anchored.
As for taxes most boats are taxed by length, both
by governments and by marinas, boatyards, ect. 26' or it's
equivilent in meters is a good place to be just under though
everything you want can be done in 20'. Other choices are
trimarrans or an outrigger.

>
>The preliminary specification - Length is 14.7m, overall
>beam is 1.6m, WL beam 1.14m and displacement 1t.

Rather narrow at that waterline at that length. Over
10=1 beam to length ratio the surface friction goes up too
much vs wave making drag causing higher power level demands.
A 14.7m boat would need at least a 1.5m waterline beam, WLB
for lowest drag.
>
>It has a 1.2kW wind turbine and 5 X 200W solar panels.
>There is 9600Wh of battery storage,

These are peak readings though you have a lot of
wind down there. be lucky if you get 1/2 that.
Or course the best wind energy generator is a sail
so one should have at least a small rig which in heavier
winds could charge your batts from boat speed through your e
motor set in regen.

>
>I am planning on a 48V system that will give peak output of
>4.74kW. This will give maximum speed of 12.4kts.

Probably a little higher power needed than that.


Daytime
>cruising using storage, wind and solar should be at 10kts
>requiring 2.3kW. Overnight cruising using wind and solar
>for running and charging through the day and batteries at
>night requires 1.15kW to do 8kts.

These rates probably need to be doubled due to skin
friction which is your dominate drag.
Also go for as large and slow prop as you can, about
3-.4 meter dia if possible for prop eff.


>
>There is enough accommodation for two people overnight and
>will be roomy enough for four during day cruises.
>
>It seems a practical concept. Will take about AUD25k to
>build it. The hull is in three pieces so this will make it
>easy to transport and reduces the area needed to build it
>in.
>
>I am seeking advice on solar panels, wind turbine,
>batteries, motor and controls. I would like to locate
>suppliers of good equipment and gain from others'
>experience on combining these energy systems for an
>electric vehicle.

Those are going to be local most likely. A good PM
motor if you can find one that high power along with a
Sevcon PM 4 quad controller will give you forward, reverse
along with charging under sail or anchored in a river or
tidal stream.
I'd go for more sail, windgen than solar as solar is
very expensive, only available 5 peak hrs/day at best vs
sails, windgen which will give you many times more range,
power at less cost.
So at least shorten it or better, switch to a
multihull to get better performance, safety and comfort at
less cost.
Good luck,
Jerry Dycus



>Rick Willoughby
>[email protected]
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4694300s25542.html#a13418241
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>archive at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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Registered
Joined
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat

Jerry
Your information is useful and supports some of my thoughts. I am thinking
that 4-quadrant drives would be useful on both props. This then gives me
backup propulsion with the air prop should I need it. I have been looking at
the Sevcon unit as well. If the air prop was large enough I could actually
sail faster than the wind downwind but it needs to be over 3m diameter for
this.

The stability is interesting because I much prefer the motion of a ballasted
monohull to a catamaran. The cat has to follow the surface so in beam seas
it rolls sharply. A ballasted monohull will bob more than roll. I intend
to have around 250kg of battaries sitting on the keel. The KMT for the hull
is .85m so it has a powerful righting moment. I have not looked at how the
air prop will behave with wind on the beam. It will contribute some healing
force depending on the rate of charge. It should dampen roll substantially
due to need to accelerate and decelerate with velocity change. There is
also a significant gyroscopic effect.

The monohull is optimised for 10kts with my target stability. I used
Michlet/Godzilla to generate the hull and it has proven accurate for smaller
boats. The speed for power are based on props I can make and available
motors. They are for calm conditions though. You are correct about the
props. I have not designed the prop yet but I expect the optimum water prop
will end up around 0.6m diameter with about a 50mm chord. I have not yet
made a reliable air prop/turbine so this is an area to work on.

Your comment on taxes is interesting. I am aware of the marina fees and
this might present an issue when I want to make a brief stop in a populated
harbour. However the target weight is 1 tonne and it will be broken down
for transport and storage. It ends up 7.4m long and 2.5m wide for
trailering.

I have included an image of a revised design that allows 6 panels and an
image showing arrangement of hull parts on a trailer. The wind turbine and
drive leg will be stored in the central hull for transport.
Rick W.
http://www.nabble.com/file/p13448061/1t_V2.jpg
http://www.nabble.com/file/p13448061/1t_Trailer.jpg


jerryd wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Rick and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: Rick Willoughby <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> subject: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>I am seeking advice and experience on equipping an electric
>>boat. I have attached an image.
>>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13418241/1t_Solar.jpg
>
> Interesting boat design you have. Your EV numbers
> also are in the ballpark. The reservations I have are more
> seakeeping, tax problems than with the charging or EV drive.
> As a a boat designer, builder of all types I'd
> suggest you go to a Cat as your present version will
> probably roll very badly in any seaway whether underway or
> anchored.
> As for taxes most boats are taxed by length, both
> by governments and by marinas, boatyards, ect. 26' or it's
> equivilent in meters is a good place to be just under though
> everything you want can be done in 20'. Other choices are
> trimarrans or an outrigger.
>
>>
>>The preliminary specification - Length is 14.7m, overall
>>beam is 1.6m, WL beam 1.14m and displacement 1t.
>
> Rather narrow at that waterline at that length. Over
> 10=1 beam to length ratio the surface friction goes up too
> much vs wave making drag causing higher power level demands.
> A 14.7m boat would need at least a 1.5m waterline beam, WLB
> for lowest drag.
>>
>>It has a 1.2kW wind turbine and 5 X 200W solar panels.
>>There is 9600Wh of battery storage,
>
> These are peak readings though you have a lot of
> wind down there. be lucky if you get 1/2 that.
> Or course the best wind energy generator is a sail
> so one should have at least a small rig which in heavier
> winds could charge your batts from boat speed through your e
> motor set in regen.
>
>>
>>I am planning on a 48V system that will give peak output of
>>4.74kW. This will give maximum speed of 12.4kts.
>
> Probably a little higher power needed than that.
>
>
> Daytime
>>cruising using storage, wind and solar should be at 10kts
>>requiring 2.3kW. Overnight cruising using wind and solar
>>for running and charging through the day and batteries at
>>night requires 1.15kW to do 8kts.
>
> These rates probably need to be doubled due to skin
> friction which is your dominate drag.
> Also go for as large and slow prop as you can, about
> 3-.4 meter dia if possible for prop eff.
>
>
>>
>>There is enough accommodation for two people overnight and
>>will be roomy enough for four during day cruises.
>>
>>It seems a practical concept. Will take about AUD25k to
>>build it. The hull is in three pieces so this will make it
>>easy to transport and reduces the area needed to build it
>>in.
>>
>>I am seeking advice on solar panels, wind turbine,
>>batteries, motor and controls. I would like to locate
>>suppliers of good equipment and gain from others'
>>experience on combining these energy systems for an
>>electric vehicle.
>
> Those are going to be local most likely. A good PM
> motor if you can find one that high power along with a
> Sevcon PM 4 quad controller will give you forward, reverse
> along with charging under sail or anchored in a river or
> tidal stream.
> I'd go for more sail, windgen than solar as solar is
> very expensive, only available 5 peak hrs/day at best vs
> sails, windgen which will give you many times more range,
> power at less cost.
> So at least shorten it or better, switch to a
> multihull to get better performance, safety and comfort at
> less cost.
> Good luck,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
>
>>Rick Willoughby
>>[email protected]
>>--
>>View this message in context:
>>http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4694300s25542.html#a13418241
>>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>>archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>For subscription options, see
>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4695205s25542.html#a13448061
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat

Hi Rick and All,

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Rick Willoughby <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 15:24:53 -0700 (PDT)

>Jerry
>Your information is useful and supports some of my
>thoughts. I am thinking that 4-quadrant drives would be
>useful on both props. This then gives me backup propulsion
>with the air prop should I need it.

I think you'll have a problem with the air drive as
a windgen unless you can reverse the blades as they are the
opposite curve for driving and being driven. You can get by
underwater because water is so thick but in the air you must
use finesse so need both a rotor and a prop.


I have been looking at
>the Sevcon unit as well. If the air prop was large enough I
>could actually sail faster than the wind downwind but it
>needs to be over 3m diameter for this.

You my have problems with that as you blades would
probably stall out.

>
>The stability is interesting because I much prefer the
>motion of a ballasted monohull to a catamaran.

You are the first 1 I've met!! Once a woman gets on a
cat they never want to go back.
I also don't think you understand just how you boat
will behave under many conditions. In anything but calm
conditions, you will be rocking side to side quite a bit
making it uncomfortable and even throwing one out of the
cockpit which is much to high on too narrow a hull. You and
your crew need to be very low in this kind of boat.


The cat has
>to follow the surface so in beam seas it rolls sharply.

True there are a few sea states which are rough but
only if you stay abeam the rare short period steep wave
which by physics could only be when a strong wind was
against a current. But turning only 10-15deg off the sea,
the cat would be very comfortable. Having anchored in open
coasts in both cats, monos, went through hurricanes and
other more nasty weather I'll say flat out a well designed
cat is much more comfortable, safe than any monohull can be
while being more eff, roomy.
Now let's take your very narrow moderately ballasted
but with a lot of top hamper and high crew weight. In the
same seas as above you would roll 30deg one way then the
other slamming you around rather badly and would have to
turn 30-40 deg off the waves and still you'd be rolling
uncomfortably.
A flatter, wider hull of about 10-1 B-L ratio and
carrying the width aft to a transom with maybe a box keel
for the batteries with the crew sitting low would be a much
more comfortable, safe way if you don't want to go cat.
Also if say a 30 mph or more gust were to hit it
sideways, it would lay down on it's side and stay there
until it stopped. It won't roll over but it will be on it's
side too much.

A
>ballasted monohull will bob more than roll.

Bob and roll a lot!! Been there, done that, no
thanks!!

I intend to
>have around 250kg of battaries sitting on the keel. The
>KMT for the hull is .85m so it has a powerful righting

I agree but what's your righting moment at 5deg?,
15deg? What happens to the righting moment when you sit in
the cockpit, cabin? On one side?


>moment. I have not looked at how the air prop will behave
>with wind on the beam.

Not well. Better would be hook the air rotor directly
to the water prop and it should work well even going
directly to windward. It's been done in new Zealand and
worked well.


It will contribute some healing
>force depending on the rate of charge. It should dampen
>roll substantially due to need to accelerate and decelerate
>with velocity change. There is also a significant
>gyroscopic effect.

Depends on size. At about 746 watts, you'll probably
lean 20deg+. figure the force x's height x righting moment.
How much do you heel?


>
>The monohull is optimised for 10kts with my target
>stability. I used Michlet/Godzilla to generate the hull
>and it has proven accurate for smaller boats. The speed
>for power are based on props I can make and available
>motors. They are for calm conditions though. You are
>correct about the props. I have not designed the prop yet
>but I expect the optimum water prop will end up around 0.6m
>diameter with about a 50mm chord.

I'd go less dia, aspect ratio and put in some
leading edge curve to repel weeds, plastic, ect. It's not
aspect ratio as much as power loading underwater. You want
to keep your tip speeds down underwater. Also the low ratio
won't stall into a load like a wave like the thinner one
might.


I have not yet made a
>reliable air prop/turbine so this is an area to work on.

Unless you can reverse the prop into a rotor, it's
not going to work for both. You need opposite foil shapes.

>
>Your comment on taxes is interesting. I am aware of the
>marina fees and this might present an issue when I want to
>make a brief stop in a populated harbour. However the
>target weight is 1 tonne and it will be broken down for
>transport and storage. It ends up 7.4m long and 2.5m wide
>for trailering.

Since the center will work on it's own just register
that length.

Jerry Dycus

>
>I have included an image of a revised design that allows 6
>panels and an image showing arrangement of hull parts on a
>trailer. The wind turbine and drive leg will be stored in
>the central hull for transport. Rick W.
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13448061/1t_V2.jpg
>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13448061/1t_Trailer.jpg
>
>
>jerryd wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi Rick and All,
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: Rick Willoughby <[email protected]>
>> To: [email protected]
>> subject: [EVDL] Electric Powered Boat
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:36:56 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>>>I am seeking advice and experience on equipping an
>>>electric boat. I have attached an image.
>>>http://www.nabble.com/file/p13418241/1t_Solar.jpg
>>
>> Interesting boat design you have. Your EV numbers
>> also are in the ballpark. The reservations I have are
>> more seakeeping, tax problems than with the charging or
>> EV drive. As a a boat designer, builder of all
>> types I'd suggest you go to a Cat as your present version
>> will probably roll very badly in any seaway whether
>> underway or anchored.
>> As for taxes most boats are taxed by length,
>> both by governments and by marinas, boatyards, ect. 26'
>> or it's equivilent in meters is a good place to be just
>> under though everything you want can be done in 20'.
>> Other choices are trimarrans or an outrigger.
>>
>>>
>>>The preliminary specification - Length is 14.7m, overall
>>>beam is 1.6m, WL beam 1.14m and displacement 1t.
>>
>> Rather narrow at that waterline at that length. Over
>> 10=1 beam to length ratio the surface friction goes up
>> too much vs wave making drag causing higher power level
>> demands. A 14.7m boat would need at least a 1.5m
>> waterline beam, WLB for lowest drag.
>>>
>>>It has a 1.2kW wind turbine and 5 X 200W solar panels.
>>>There is 9600Wh of battery storage,
>>
>> These are peak readings though you have a lot of
>> wind down there. be lucky if you get 1/2 that.
>> Or course the best wind energy generator is a
>> sail so one should have at least a small rig which in
>> heavier winds could charge your batts from boat speed
>> through your e motor set in regen.
>>
>>>
>>>I am planning on a 48V system that will give peak output
>>>of 4.74kW. This will give maximum speed of 12.4kts.
>>
>> Probably a little higher power needed than that.
>>
>>
>> Daytime
>>>cruising using storage, wind and solar should be at 10kts
>>>requiring 2.3kW. Overnight cruising using wind and
>>>solar for running and charging through the day and
>>>batteries at night requires 1.15kW to do 8kts.
>>
>> These rates probably need to be doubled due to
>> skin friction which is your dominate drag.
>> Also go for as large and slow prop as you can,
>> about 3-.4 meter dia if possible for prop eff.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>There is enough accommodation for two people overnight
>>>and will be roomy enough for four during day cruises.
>>>
>>>It seems a practical concept. Will take about AUD25k to
>>>build it. The hull is in three pieces so this will make
>>>it easy to transport and reduces the area needed to build
>>>it in.
>>>
>>>I am seeking advice on solar panels, wind turbine,
>>>batteries, motor and controls. I would like to locate
>>>suppliers of good equipment and gain from others'
>>>experience on combining these energy systems for an
>>>electric vehicle.
>>
>> Those are going to be local most likely. A good
>> PM motor if you can find one that high power along with a
>> Sevcon PM 4 quad controller will give you forward,
>> reverse along with charging under sail or anchored in a
>> river or tidal stream.
>> I'd go for more sail, windgen than solar as solar
>> is very expensive, only available 5 peak hrs/day at best
>> vs sails, windgen which will give you many times more
>> range, power at less cost.
>> So at least shorten it or better, switch to a
>> multihull to get better performance, safety and comfort
>> at less cost.
>> Good luck,
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>>
>>
>>>Rick Willoughby
>>>[email protected]
>>>--
>>>View this message in context:
>>>http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4694300s255
>>>42.html#a13418241 Sent from the Electric Vehicle
>>>Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>For subscription options, see
>>>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Electric-Powered-Boat-tf4695205s25542.html#a13448061
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list
>archive at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
For subscription options, see
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