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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Lee Hart wrote:

> If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle weight
> and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> registration.

We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The law
is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel but
it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).

See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/

You have to declare your maximum weight, and if you're caught on the road
overweight there are large fines. Generally, only heavy goods vehicles are
stopped at weigh bridges. There are no scales used at the safety
inspections.

This system has been in use for many many years. Recently owners of light
diesel vehicles have started complaining that the petrol equivalent of
their car pays less tax. This is a result of the increasing fuel economy
of small cars -- they burn less petrol per km and so pay less petrol tax
per km.

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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)


>
Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
>> much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle weight
>> and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
>> simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
>> registration.
>
> We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The law
> is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
> must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
> The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel but
> it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
> granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).
>
> See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/
>
> You have to declare your maximum weight, and if you're caught on the road
> overweight there are large fines. Generally, only heavy goods vehicles are
> stopped at weigh bridges. There are no scales used at the safety
> inspections.
>
> This system has been in use for many many years. Recently owners of light
> diesel vehicles have started complaining that the petrol equivalent of
> their car pays less tax. This is a result of the increasing fuel economy
> of small cars -- they burn less petrol per km and so pay less petrol tax

Good On NZ! Makes cents to me!Hmmm? they talking Led acid
badderies?!Weighty thing there!?

Bob
>.
>
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> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Thanks for the international input! I like looking outside our box... I
mean borders!

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Lee Hart wrote:

> If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle
weight
> and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> registration.

We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The
law
is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel
but
it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).

See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/

You have to declare your maximum weight, and if you're caught on the
road
overweight there are large fines. Generally, only heavy goods vehicles
are
stopped at weigh bridges. There are no scales used at the safety
inspections.

This system has been in use for many many years. Recently owners of
light
diesel vehicles have started complaining that the petrol equivalent of
their car pays less tax. This is a result of the increasing fuel economy
of small cars -- they burn less petrol per km and so pay less petrol tax
per km.

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

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| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

An amazing thing about NZ, you can have dialog with government ministers.
Some of us on NZEVA group wrote to the minister of transport saying that it
would help the introduction of EV's to have them road user tax free for a
few years and he actually responded, a government that listens to the
people, can you imagine that!
The situation for diesel car owners is not so good, they pay NZ$32
per 1000km road user charges and also much higher license fees, I also wrote
to the minister of transport about that as it was the same as a 6 ton truck
pays! He replied that my little diesel car causes as much damage to the
roads as a 6 ton truck.....

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2010 6:07 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Lee Hart wrote:

> If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle weight
> and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> registration.

We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The law
is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel but
it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).

See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
 

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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Did he explain his statement about diesel cars causing as much damage as
a 6 ton truck? I could see perhaps environmental damage, but do not
understand road wear/damage, and the environmental is quickly alleviated
(and better than a gasoline car) with switching to plant-based diesel
fuel (rapeseed, for instance or Veggie Oil/Waste Vegetable Oil).

So his statement has me perplexed. It's also the reason why it'll be
difficult to get a diesel-electric hybrid in the States: CARB
requirements in California do not allow for differences between a diesel
fueled on dino, and a diesel fueled on rape/Waste Veggie Oil -- the
emissions are quite different but CARB only judges on the worst-case
scenario. I recall Aptera gave up trying on an electric-diesel hybrid
and switched to gas... sad if you were hoping for a 100% local-fueled,
affordable long-distance ride...

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of George Tyler
Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:54 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

An amazing thing about NZ, you can have dialog with government
ministers.
Some of us on NZEVA group wrote to the minister of transport saying that
it
would help the introduction of EV's to have them road user tax free for
a
few years and he actually responded, a government that listens to the
people, can you imagine that!
The situation for diesel car owners is not so good, they pay
NZ$32
per 1000km road user charges and also much higher license fees, I also
wrote
to the minister of transport about that as it was the same as a 6 ton
truck
pays! He replied that my little diesel car causes as much damage to the
roads as a 6 ton truck.....

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf
Of [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2010 6:07 p.m.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

Lee Hart wrote:

> If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle
weight
> and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> registration.

We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The
law
is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel
but
it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).

See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/


_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
| Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
| UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
| OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
| OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev

_______________________________________________
| REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
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70 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

This is getting a bit off topic. But, I wonder how many people are driving
around in 80's era mercedes diesel's simply because it's almost the only
diesel car available, not because they want to drive a 20+ year old car,
actually creating higher emissions (other than CO2) than if the modern
diesel's from europe were available in the US.... I am.... as are alot of
people in Colorado I know.

Back to EV topics....

Z

Matthew <[email protected]>wrote:

> Did he explain his statement about diesel cars causing as much damage as
> a 6 ton truck? I could see perhaps environmental damage, but do not
> understand road wear/damage, and the environmental is quickly alleviated
> (and better than a gasoline car) with switching to plant-based diesel
> fuel (rapeseed, for instance or Veggie Oil/Waste Vegetable Oil).
>
> So his statement has me perplexed. It's also the reason why it'll be
> difficult to get a diesel-electric hybrid in the States: CARB
> requirements in California do not allow for differences between a diesel
> fueled on dino, and a diesel fueled on rape/Waste Veggie Oil -- the
> emissions are quite different but CARB only judges on the worst-case
> scenario. I recall Aptera gave up trying on an electric-diesel hybrid
> and switched to gas... sad if you were hoping for a 100% local-fueled,
> affordable long-distance ride...
>
> [email protected]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of George Tyler
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 12:54 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)
>
> An amazing thing about NZ, you can have dialog with government
> ministers.
> Some of us on NZEVA group wrote to the minister of transport saying that
> it
> would help the introduction of EV's to have them road user tax free for
> a
> few years and he actually responded, a government that listens to the
> people, can you imagine that!
> The situation for diesel car owners is not so good, they pay
> NZ$32
> per 1000km road user charges and also much higher license fees, I also
> wrote
> to the minister of transport about that as it was the same as a 6 ton
> truck
> pays! He replied that my little diesel car causes as much damage to the
> roads as a 6 ton truck.....
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf
> Of [email protected]
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 October 2010 6:07 p.m.
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)
>
> On Tue, October 5, 2010 4:28 am, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> > much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle
> weight
> > and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> > simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> > registration.
>
> We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The
> law
> is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
> must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
> The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel
> but
> it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
> granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).
>
> See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

I wonder if it has occurred to others on this forum to pose the question
regarding the other uses of the data loop that new chargers now have (in
order to qualify for government programs)?
Could this be the ground work for an equitable tax method? As in the power
that flows through the charger will be sold at 25 cent per KWH vs the
standard rate of say 8 or 10 cents for the rest of the power used in your
house / business.
Just a thought.

<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, October 5, 2010 4:28 am, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> > much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle weight
> > and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> > simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> > registration.
>
> We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The law
> is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
> must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
> The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel but
> it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
> granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).
>
> See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/
>
> You have to declare your maximum weight, and if you're caught on the road
> overweight there are large fines. Generally, only heavy goods vehicles are
> stopped at weigh bridges. There are no scales used at the safety
> inspections.
>
> This system has been in use for many many years. Recently owners of light
> diesel vehicles have started complaining that the petrol equivalent of
> their car pays less tax. This is a result of the increasing fuel economy
> of small cars -- they burn less petrol per km and so pay less petrol tax
> per km.
>
> _______________________________________________
> | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>



--
Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: [EVDL] EV road taxes (was No ICE in 10 Years)

hmmm. So plugging into the dryer outlet would become the equivalent to
using off-road diesel in your truck.... interesting idea.

Thos True <[email protected]> wrote:

> I wonder if it has occurred to others on this forum to pose the question
> regarding the other uses of the data loop that new chargers now have (in
> order to qualify for government programs)?
> Could this be the ground work for an equitable tax method? As in the power
> that flows through the charger will be sold at 25 cent per KWH vs the
> standard rate of say 8 or 10 cents for the rest of the power used in your
> house / business.
> Just a thought.
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:07 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, October 5, 2010 4:28 am, Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > > If the goal of the system is to have people pay in proportion to how
> > > much they use the roads, then the fee should be based on vehicle weight
> > > and miles driven. These are both fairly easy to measure. They could
> > > simply weigh the vehicle and check the odometer at each yearly
> > > registration.
> >
> > We have this system in New Zealand. We call it Road User Charges. The law
> > is written such that every vehicle running on fuel not taxed at source
> > must pay road user charges. Petrol is taxed at source but diesel isn't.
> > The RUC system is generally only talked about in the context of diesel
> but
> > it also applies to electric vehicles. Electric vehicles were recently
> > granted an exemption until 2013 (with the option to extend).
> >
> > See http://www.transport.govt.nz/ourwork/Land/RoadUserCharges/
> >
> > You have to declare your maximum weight, and if you're caught on the road
> > overweight there are large fines. Generally, only heavy goods vehicles
> are
> > stopped at weigh bridges. There are no scales used at the safety
> > inspections.
> >
> > This system has been in use for many many years. Recently owners of light
> > diesel vehicles have started complaining that the petrol equivalent of
> > their car pays less tax. This is a result of the increasing fuel economy
> > of small cars -- they burn less petrol per km and so pay less petrol tax
> > per km.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > | REPLYING: address your message to [email protected] only.
> > | Multiple-address or CCed messages may be rejected.
> > | UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > | OTHER HELP: http://evdl.org/help/
> > | OPTIONS: http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Remember, it is not that the glass is half empty, in reality, the glass is
> merely twice the size that it needs to be! -TNT'82
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