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Discussion Starter #1
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

Dave Davidson <[email protected]> wrote:

> When I was young, vehicle registration taxes were based on vehicle
> weight. Even passenger cars were divided into several weight
> categories. This seems a good start. If a state has a vehicle
> inspection program, odometer readings could be taken as well and fees
> based on miles driven. Lastly, politicians here in the northeast love
> toll roads, whose proceeds could also be used for road maintenance.
>
>
Could you imagine that today ? that would rock. How many hummers would we
see if vehicle taxes where
based on weight. holy cow. lol.
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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

On 9/30/2010 16:17, Dave Hymers wrote:
>
Dave Davidson<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> When I was young, vehicle registration taxes were based on vehicle
>> weight. Even passenger cars were divided into several weight
>> categories. This seems a good start. If a state has a vehicle
>> inspection program, odometer readings could be taken as well and fees
>> based on miles driven. Lastly, politicians here in the northeast love
>> toll roads, whose proceeds could also be used for road maintenance.
>>
>>
> Could you imagine that today ? that would rock. How many hummers would we
> see if vehicle taxes where
> based on weight. holy cow. lol.


Here in California, commercial registered vehicles are taxed on weight.
Pickups are normally registered as commercial vehicles (or else you
can't carry ANY cargo - that includes a trip to Home Depot or your local
grocery store). I can assure you that there is no shortage of full
sized pickups on the road in the state of California (including mine).
Picked up 1644 pounds of concrete mix at the local Home Depot 2 weeks ago.

--
73
-------------------------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[email protected]
Ofc: 818-548-4804
http://home.earthlink.net/~k6ccc
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

Replying to a bunch all at once.

Yes the road taxes have to be replaced.

Adding anything to the upfront cost simply won't work. As has been pointed
out repeatedly, that is a perfect way to make sure no one will buy them.

> odometer readings could be taken as well and fees
> based on miles driven.

Also a perfectly good reason to disconnect your odometer, at least
partially.

Taxing the electricity won't work, this creates another disincentive, and
had major problems with people not paying the taxes.

Toll roads don't work well, making them the only pathway is politically
impossible.

The truth is that it takes taxing some disposable quantity, that can only be
replaced through some authoritative channel. The disposable nature of the
gasoline and the inability to make it at home has made it roughly ideal.
Electricity doesn't work because of the previously noted ability to generate
it in locations that aren't taxable.

The only solution I see is the tires. Tires have the advantage that they are
extremely difficult to make in untaxable ways. They have additional
advantages in that the poor purchase tires far less frequently than the
rich, with tires targeted at the poor rated at up to 100,000 miles, while
high performance vehicles targeted at the rich may last as little as 3000
miles, in addition to the poor tires costing less than the rich tires so a
percentage works well. Additionally, tire life is affected by vehicle weight
in roughly the same way as the underlying roadway.

That's not to say that a tire tax is ideal. The simple fact that tires last
so much longer than gasoline means a more significant appearance to the
average person. Using the numbers posted by someone else, a 100,000 mile set
of tires would have to supply about $1500. Since the 100,000 mile tires are
currently only about $500 a set this would be a 300% tax. I can't see most
people being willing to pay that steep of a tax.

I don't think "just tax X" is going to be the reasonable solution. It is a
complex problem that requries a sophisticated solution, nothing simple is
likely to be acceptable to a broad enough range of people.
Joe

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Discussion Starter #4
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

A fair road use tax would take in to account a vehicles' weight ,type and use
plus the miles driven on the roads annually.
Implementing this on all vehicles regardless of the type of energy being
used is the task.
Large commercial vehicles ,in my estimation, are not paying a fair share
for the wear that they put on the roads and the infrastructure . It would
be better if they were required to build and maintain their own roads such
as the railroads must do, the existing public roads then would have a very
much longer useful life with the lighter loads, and making the railroads
more competitive for long hauls.
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View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EV-Road-Taxes-tp2766261p2905827.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Discussion Starter #5
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

Tires are an interesting angle, since they are the "instrument" of road
damage and for the reasons Joseph mentions. I think we've generated a
lot of good discussion and ideas.

1. Tax the fuel (daily?)
2. Tax the plate (yearly - this would be weight/odo reading)
3. Tax the vehicle (1x, upfront)
4. Tax the tires (dependant on mileage/performance)

Anything I missed? Of course it could be split up amoung all of these,
though that might make an administrative/legislative nightmare, and I'm
all about making sure overhead doesn't swallow up income.

Anybody up for some research (or know international types?). I'm not
for reinventing the wheel (just the vehicle ;-), so I'm a big proponent
of looking about at how other countries do it.

As an EV owner, you feel like you're getting off scott free, right up
until you have to replace shocks/struts/tie rods etc, because you
weren't able to avoid that [email protected]#[email protected]#!% pothole that hasn't been patched all
summer!

So believe it or not, as a small, lightweight EV owner (with superior
pothole-avoidance skilz) and bicyclist, I *want* to pay road
repair/maintenance taxes, at least on the local level.

Taking the lead means we have a good shot at determining implementation.
Especially when you go to a representative and say "We need and want to
be taxed -- here's an acceptable and fair way to do it"

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Joseph Ashwood
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 10:11 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

Replying to a bunch all at once.

Yes the road taxes have to be replaced.

Adding anything to the upfront cost simply won't work. As has been
pointed
out repeatedly, that is a perfect way to make sure no one will buy them.

> odometer readings could be taken as well and fees
> based on miles driven.

Also a perfectly good reason to disconnect your odometer, at least
partially.

Taxing the electricity won't work, this creates another disincentive,
and
had major problems with people not paying the taxes.

Toll roads don't work well, making them the only pathway is politically
impossible.

The truth is that it takes taxing some disposable quantity, that can
only be
replaced through some authoritative channel. The disposable nature of
the
gasoline and the inability to make it at home has made it roughly ideal.

Electricity doesn't work because of the previously noted ability to
generate
it in locations that aren't taxable.

The only solution I see is the tires. Tires have the advantage that they
are
extremely difficult to make in untaxable ways. They have additional
advantages in that the poor purchase tires far less frequently than the
rich, with tires targeted at the poor rated at up to 100,000 miles,
while
high performance vehicles targeted at the rich may last as little as
3000
miles, in addition to the poor tires costing less than the rich tires so
a
percentage works well. Additionally, tire life is affected by vehicle
weight
in roughly the same way as the underlying roadway.

That's not to say that a tire tax is ideal. The simple fact that tires
last
so much longer than gasoline means a more significant appearance to the
average person. Using the numbers posted by someone else, a 100,000 mile
set
of tires would have to supply about $1500. Since the 100,000 mile tires
are
currently only about $500 a set this would be a 300% tax. I can't see
most
people being willing to pay that steep of a tax.

I don't think "just tax X" is going to be the reasonable solution. It is
a
complex problem that requries a sophisticated solution, nothing simple
is
likely to be acceptable to a broad enough range of people.
Joe

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Discussion Starter #6
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

Something to keep in mind: A special tax can be more expensive to collect than
it is worth. EVs would have to reach some critical mass before it pays to do a
special tax.

Thought 2: Lower or no taxes for EVs are an incentive that promotes EVs.

Tax on tires: Too easy to drive to Canada or Mexico to get tires. If the tax is
high enough, that would "pay" for these "vacations." It would also encourage
driving on tires to the danger point, and buying used tires. It would also be a
double tax on folks that have snow tires and summer tires.

Yearly assessment on registration: Probably the best way. It would only work in
states that have initial or yearly inspections, though, otherwise people would
just continue to register an EV conversion as a gas car.

Electrics are not required to have a "Clean Air" plate in my state, but you can
pay extra to get one for the benefits of being able to go in the car pool lane
and get free parking at meters.




----- Original Message ----
From: "Childress, Matthew" <[email protected]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Sent: Fri, October 1, 2010 7:56:43 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

... go to a representative and say "We need and want to be taxed -- here's an
acceptable and fair way to do it" ...




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Discussion Starter #7
Re: [EVDL] EV Road Taxes

On 1 Oct 2010 at 10:14, David Dymaxion wrote:

> EVs would have to reach some critical mass before it pays to do a
> special tax.

More likely, some loudmouthed TV or radio commentator (perhaps at the
prompting of an oil company advertiser) will go on a crusade against the
"free ride" all these EV drivers are getting. To shut him up, a few craven
politicians will introduce legislation to punish EVers for their "theft."
Then a majority in congress will thump their chests in voting for it.

Goodness knows what we'll end up with. And never mind that it costs more to
collect the tax than it takes in - we'll show those freeloaders!

Me? Cynical? Not quite that much, but that's how bad laws happen. It
would behoove us to find a rational way to deal with this matter BEFORE the
purple-faced yellers take control of the discussion.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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