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Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings ...More Musings

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[email protected]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings ...


> On 16 Aug 2007 at 10:53, Bob Rice wrote:
>
>> Obviously there is a market for locally produced batteries, or he
>> wouldn't have been making them here, in the first place?
> Hi EVerybody;

Thought I'd expound on David's post, here. Good Stuff.

> I realize that not everyone on the EVDL is interested in EVs for their
> "greenness." I hope that I can discuss it a bit and those who ARE
> interested will take part thoughtfully, while those are are not interested
> will just delete this message and refrain from criticizing us or calling
> us
> names.

> Were in it for the Greenness, too. I have held my beautiful Grandson, and
> thinking I'm ashamed of my greneration, I'm about Bush and Chaney's age,
> Scarry? You Bet!!What am I leaving, WE, to this innocent child? Crushing
> debt, IF we don't go broke before he is of age? A Thirld world country,
> China holding our debt, the US dollar being replaced? By what? The Euro,
> or RM of China? We have dumped a terrable burden on MY kid's age group,
> the 20 Somethings, to dig out from under. I TRY to walk, drive , my talk.
> I DO drive an EV EVery day,in the 89 Jetta, It WILL carry 4 people, NO
> batterys in the cabin, RAH! it is not a model, but horrible example, but
> it drew the crowds at Cruise Nite in Westbrook CT at Ray's Seafood
> Restaurant,last nite .Come on down!

But I feel like if you handed me a glass in the sinking Titanic Lounge
and said ."Bob, Save the ship''! Maybe if 1500 folks had BUCKETS, they
coulda saved the ship long enough for the Carpathia to arrrive. But no
teamwork there or here, nowadaze! I think if I was the skipper I woulda
backed up and RAMMED the iceberg at full speed. Drove her hard "ashore" and
left it in "Drive" like the Ferry boats do, to stay "Parked". Stay afoat a
few hours?

Well, I'm not running for Prez, so I won't have much say in energy
policies? Ha Ha!Driving Electric MUST be cleaner, even in CT. Probably Nuke
powered as we have a BIG nuke 20 miles down the road from here. I COULD, if
I had the money to do a Doug Korthof, and make all my power from
Solar?Others on here do solar, too?

> After all, I don't race EVs, in fact don't really like racing, but I don't
> complain about others discussing racing on the EVDL, nor do I insult them
> or
> call them names. So, those who aren't interested in the environmental
> angle
> on EVs, please give us a break on this thread - which I think is solidly
> on
> topic. I promise not to denigrate you for your decisions

> Racing, yes, Drag Racing, if you think about it, is rather silly. BUT it
> is more fun and less destructive than wars to improve technology! And,
> tell me, IF you don't have a thrill as Zombie BLASTS away from noisy
> stinkin' piston rigs. So deep down HEARTWARMING! The looong godam truck
> derby to get to PDX, see Killa Cycle GO. By all rights, ecology wise I
> shoulda stayed home and not burned up gas in the Prius to get there. I
> "saved" up enough to go, by driving electric the REST of the year!And I
> still can do it, blessed by good health, being able to download and upload
> carloads of batteri, at my age, and Homeland Security, another scam, will
> still let you travel anywhere you like in USA. Surprise AZ, to Speonk, NY
> if ya wanna! Stopping in Show Low, AZ, too<G>!Only the Chinese could come
> up with more whimsicle names?Maybe my grandkid can make a Transcontinental
> trip in an Electric, someday? Hey, isn't that why were here?Alots guyz
> here have kids, and you are trying to show the way, to cleaner renewable
> energy? It isn't ALL about drag racing, just not as exciting as seeing
> Zoombie run, I guess?

> Anyway, for us "greenies," I think it's worth considering that imported
> batteries carry some extra environmental baggage.

You BET! Hauling those G.D. Thunder Sky's over here, to begin with, as
you point out. Maybe Jukka can get them built in Finland, or at least
Taiwan. Taiwan is a good sourse of stuff, nowadaze, and think of this;
Sports Fans; Taiwan is the ONLY place where Chinese folks live in a
democracy, like we used to. Taiwan's Prez is a Taiwanese guy, freely
elected, the" Chaing and the Gang" daze are gone(Chiang Kai Check)So, in the
looong run, US policy paid off in setting up a working democracy. I was
THERE, I saw it! Hear my Taiwanese flag waving<g>? Pisses off the Red
Chinese Govt,BECAUSE the place is successful, but money talks and Taiwanese
with deep pockets have helped bankroll the Mainland China boom, for good or
bad. The jury is still out here. Maybe TS Cells could be made in Taiwan,
then we would get some decent quality control??Taiwan opened their Bullet
Train, recently even! Google Taiwan Hi Speed Rail, lottsa great clips on You
Tube, too!They are TRYING to clean up their air there.

> For one thing, environmental laws are not very strongly enforced in China
> (and probably Mexico and some other cheap-labor countries). Lead and
> chemical pollution is desperately, fatally high in some parts of China.
> So
> those who have a "green" side might want to investigate the environmental
> profile of the factories producing their batteries, be they lead or
> lithium.

This will be tough! They will do it every which way, to DO it. EVen
HERE in USA we had to outlaw child labor to get the kids OUT of the coal
mines 100 years ago. Were STILL trying to get the other 6 guyz out in Utah,
now.We were no shining example in our nation's deformative years, so we
can't really dump on China, I guess?We COULD set examples to the Chinese
folks, I mean we sorta did, by giving them the store and PAYING them to take
it, technology wise.I don't think they thought up Nuke Subs on their own?Or
EVen Diseasel ones?Rockets? Yeah, they had fireworks Looong ago.
>
> The other consideration is the amount of embedded energy (most of it from
> petroleum and coal) that goes into imported batteries.
>
> If you buy USBMC batteries, they'll be shipped from CA or GA, whichever is
> closer. Presumably Trojan works similarly. But if you buy batteries from
> China, they're shipped literally halfway round the world in a freighter
> using fuel oil. Then they're trucked or rail-transported closer to you,
> and
> finally trucked again to you or your dealer.

My newly adopted US's came from GA ,Sez so.So only overnight ,on the
truck?

> And that's not all. I've read that at least some of the lead batteries
> that
> are recycled in the US are actually shipped to China or South America for
> processing. (Someone correct me if this is wrong.) This burns petroleum
> and moves the recycling process to areas where environmental laws may be
> lax
> (see above).
> Also, Chinese and South American manufacturing is generally less energy
> efficient than European and US manufacturing, so more energy may be used
> to
> produce the batteries there than would be used here.

> I mentioned it to the battery guyz here. They were loading up a truck with
> pallots of dead badd-eries, I said that are they going to China? He said
> they were going HERE, I mean USA to be recycled, so I guess we recycle
> here?God! I hope so?Too bad he wasn't stuffing ALL thise batteries in a
> boxcar, not an 18 wheeler.You can stuff 100 tons in a garden verity
> boxcar!And two guyz my size can push it!

> Then, the finished batteries are shipped back to the states, using still
> more energy and petroleum.

THAT's WHY I was trying to get the local guy to make me some batteries
in Berlin ,CONNECTICUT. He could supply the NEEAA needs for years<g>!
>
> So, while the dollar price is lower because of the low cost of labor, the
> energy cost of imported batteries is probably higher. I can't say how
> MUCH
> higher, as I don't have the time or access to research materials to
> calculate it. I do think it would be interesting, and I hope not
> dismaying,
> to factor this into (or, rather, out of) the energy savings of our EVs.
>
>> Has the State of Or. offered Rich and Otmar any buildings, tax breaks,
>> employee training?
>
> I don't know the answer, but I can tell you that EV companies have
> proposed
> manufacturing plants in various places, and in some cases, they've been
> promised tax breaks. Often, the companies never build the plants. IIRC,
> the Korean operation that developed the Parade, ATTRD, proposed building a
> plant somewhere in the Midwest, and were promised financial help by the
> regional govemment. No facility ever materialized. This leaves the tax-
> break climate less receptive for legitimate (or better managed) EV-related
> businesses.
>
Hey ! WHAT happened to ATT?? Hell! The Parade was a beautiful rig! I met
it several times, never drove it. Now with decent Lith. pack it would be a
winner!
>>
>> I'll pay more for my Grandkid's new toys to see " Made in USA" on
>> them. Bring them ON! I
>
> Maybe you would. But most people >say< this, then they turn right around
> and buy what's cheapest, just as they always have. That's why so many
> things are made in China - because people buy them. That, and the fact
> that
> it means more profit for the US company at a given price level, which
> stockholders demand. If you're the CEO, you get rewarded financially for
> this. Who can blame them?

> And when they DON'T! too. The Golden Parachutes work great!I can't think
> of any outfits off hand, but execs walk away with millions and Uncle Sap,
> with your tax bux, bails them, companoies, out.

> If you want more EV parts made in the USA, then don't buy imported EV
> parts.
> Simple as that. If you want EV parts to which less environmental damage
> can
> be ascribed, buy US-made or EU-made components rather than components from
> Asia. Equally simple.
>
Yes. So nice to see Damon Crocket's shop setup, US-ian guyz working
there, building Alltrax controllers, He said that he wasn't too worried that
China would steal his designs. I thought it would be so easy to mail a few
over there to reverse enginerr. Not a problem he sez. Quality control
......it would be a piece of shit IF it got here.I think Otmar and Rich feel
the same way. Do something WELL, and you will have loyal customers?Toyota
comes to mind.

> There are people manufacturing EV components in the US and some of them
> are
> right on this list. At least one of them bends over backward to patronize
> US suppliers.
>
> Again, I'm not saying this is the right decision for everyone, and I don't
> mean to offend anyone who puts price at the top of the decision tree.
> Everybody makes buying decisions based on his own situation. All I'm
> trying
> to do is provide some extra input for those decisions.
>
>> And Mine too.

>> OK I'm getting off topic trying to make a point? Maybe A123 could make
>> them
>> here? Or a Thunder Sky branch plant HERE?
>
> Isn't Jukka talking about a possible Thundersky plant in Finland? If they
> can build one there, with Finland's famous high taxes and the EU's
> stringent
> environmental laws, surely we could build one here. All we need is
> someone
> with sufficient drive and connections - and lots of investors.

Does Thunder Sky hold any properitiry patents? The Chinese don't adhere
to anything like that. But IF they DID you know there would be an
international incident if WE stole theirs?!Depends who's ox is gored here.

Well, it worked for Tesla, IF they start delivering cars for customers
to adopt and give loving homes?These Red Roadsters running around, past the
ghosts of EV-1 past? The floodgates will open. Now IF we can get Sunrise and
Freedom going in time to ride the tide?

Seeya

Bob, a nobody here<g>!
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
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Discussion Starter #2
Re: [EVDL] Getting a bit OT - TS warnings ...More Musings

On 16 Aug 2007 at 22:06, Bob Rice wrote:

> Hey ! WHAT happened to ATT?? Hell! The Parade was a beautiful rig! I met it
> several times, never drove it. Now with decent Lith. pack it would be a
> winner!

Their website (attrd.com) still says "Available in 2005." Sure. The last
update on that website was late in 2003. Haul out the bugle and blow a
round of "Taps," Bob.

BTW, I was wrong; it wasn't the Midwest where they were supposed to build
their plant; it was Sutherland, Oregon - or so I see from one of the last
news releases posted on their website, from May of 2003.

Attrd was (is?) a few guys who got laid off when Daewoo got into financial
hot water in the early years of the 21st century. Like Solectria and the
Sunrise, they didn't want to produce the Parade, they wanted someone to
license the design so they could get rich from the royalties.

Maybe they saw Hyundai licensing old Mitsubishi designs for their ICEs and
figured "why not us." But this is a different game. The old 80s vintage
Excel and, more recently, the Galloper, were intended to fill gaps in the
Hyundai vehicle range at the lowest possible development cost, not to
introduce unsettling innovations such as EVs - which would bring much higher
costs. So I don't see it happening. A pity, because the Parade appeared to
be a decent design. So it goes ...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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